Please can you give me some advice on attending church with a baby?

[Alia]

15 hours ago, KScience said:

Do what you need to do.  Just be assured we are not all judging you.  Is there a sister with/once had young kids that you can share your concerns with?

I don't know anyone because I am very anti-social at church. I think within 6 months it will be a lot easier to take him to church with me. 

 

[anatess2]

18 hours ago, Alia said:

 

I agree, my husband doesn't understand why it makes me feel awkward when my son misbehaves at church but I hate people looking at me. Annoyingly, there is a park right behind the church and I told my son I will take him there when we leave church. When I took him out of the meeting room into the hall he thought we were leaving so a tantrum pursued when I didn't take him to the park and at that point I knew the battle was lost. I do accept that I need to stop giving into him when he has tantrums. 

So, does this happen anytime, anywhere?  Or does this just happen at Church?

If this is just a Church thing, then the issue could possibly be just a "vibes" thing from you.  You may be able to address this by just changing the way you approach Sacrament Meeting which will then affect a change in your son's behavior (or your perception of his behavior).

If this is an everyday thing, then things need to be changed in how you run your household. If nothing changes, your son can become a burden to school teachers, etc.  Take him to the library everyday to practice quiet time.

[Alia]

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So, does this happen anytime, anywhere?  Or does this just happen at Church?

If this is just a Church thing, then the issue could possibly be just a "vibes" thing from you.  You may be able to address this by just changing the way you approach Sacrament Meeting which will then affect a change in your son's behavior (or your perception of his behavior).

 If this is an everyday thing, then things need to be changed in how you run your household. If nothing changes, your son can become a burden to school teachers, etc.  Take him to the library everyday to practice quiet time.

I hardly see him Monday-Friday I only see him for an hour in the evenings during the week which is when I put him to bed and he has never made a fuss about that. 

On weekends he does have tantrums quite frequently, but my husband tells me that he doesn't play up for him during the week. I don't know if that is true. I am going to stop giving into him when he has tantrums because every time I say no to him he has a tantrum. 

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Alia said:

I hardly see him Monday-Friday I only see him for an hour in the evenings during the week which is when I put him to bed and he has never made a fuss about that. 

On weekends he does have tantrums quite frequently, but my husband tells me that he doesn't play up for him during the week. I don't know if that is true. I am going to stop giving into him when he has tantrums because every time I say no to him he has a tantrum. 

One thing I've noticed in a lot of families is that the parent that works out of the household doesn't enforce the rules as firmly as the primary-care-giver parent.  The kid notices this discrepancy, and when the less-enforceful work-out-of-house parent is in charge the kid will immediately push those boundaries and do things like tantrum, yell, throw things, etc.  This is simply because they know they can push those boundaries and hence do--- especially if throwing a tantrum rewards them by getting what they want.  The solution to this is to have constant rules and not permit (yet alone reward) these bad behaviors.

-Written by a less-enforceful work-out-of-house parent who has learned this all the hard way.

[Alia]

14 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

One thing I've noticed in a lot of families is that the parent that works out of the household doesn't enforce the rules as firmly as the primary-care-giver parent.  The kid notices this discrepancy, and when the less-enforceful work-out-of-house parent is in charge the kid will immediately push those boundaries and do things like tantrum, yell, throw things, etc.  This is simply because they know they can push those boundaries and hence do--- especially if throwing a tantrum rewards them by getting what they want.  The solution to this is to have constant rules and not permit (yet alone reward) these bad behaviors.

-Written by a less-enforceful work-out-of-house parent who has learned this all the hard way.

Strange how a 17 month old can be so calculative. 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Alia said:

Strange how a 17 month old can be so calculative. 

You'd be surprised.  Babies and Toddlers are sponges.  Remember the time not so long ago when you had to pick up whatever thing the baby dropped out of the high chair for the umpteenth time and the baby has that curious glee in his eyes waiting on what you would do?  Give it a few months and you'll be pulling your hair out with the... "But...Why?" phase.  Hah hah.  They cue in on things we, adults, don't even notice - like just a change in "mood" will get them clued in.  It gets frustrating because say, the parent is stressed out, the toddler clues in on it and he gets anxious which could cause a more difficult child which gets the parent even more stressed out which gets the kid even more anxious and difficult.  This could cause frustrated parents pulling their hair out, fighting with a tantrum, trying to change the child's behavior when the easy route would be for the parent to destress.

And like @Jane_Doe, I learned this from my 2 boys who made the term "terrible twos" sound like a kitten to a lion.  

Take it easy Alia.  Children are a blessing.  You don't have much time with them, so enjoy the time you have, be consistent in your discipline and things will be fine.  Take the child to nursery after Sacrament Meeting and bask in spiritual nourishment in Sunday School.  Take it from a mother of 2 boys whose 3 year old kid who was potty training at the time tried to make his father do his bidding and when he didn't, pulled down his training pants and peed on the carpet right in front of his dad!   That was the one and only time he got a loud smack on that bottom.  He never did that again.  I used to go bat-crazy when, once again, some kid rams another thing through the drywall.  But those don't bother me anymore.  One thing these boys have gotten really good at is patching drywall.  Hah hah.  My 2 boys are now 15 and 17 and I dread the day they leave the house on their missions and I have to be without them for 2 years.  They are wonderful, well-adjusted, well-mannered young men that are assets to the community.

Remember, we're in this together!

Edited February 12, 2019 by anatess2

[estradling75]

31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

You'd be surprised.  Babies and Toddlers are sponges.

 

Related to this... Their brains are a developing neural network (A type self programming computer).  We all start with a basic set of needs, wants and desires, and an imperative to fulfill such. But no real direction on how to fulfill such. So they try everything they can think of (like throwing raisins). That which works (or gets close to working) gets positively reinforced, that which does not work gets negatively reinforced.  Thus if one adult is more permissive the child will clue in and learn to use that very very quickly.

If a set of behavior (bad or otherwise) gets them what they want then such behavior will continue and get more pronounced.  This is a normal and expected part of development.  It is up to the parent (or other caregiver) to not reward behavior that is undesirable. Because rewarded behavior is repeated behavior.  Sadly this is easier said then done because in the middle of a meltdown giving them what they want will naturally stop the meltdown.

 

 

[Alia]

5 hours ago, estradling75 said:

If a set of behavior (bad or otherwise) gets them what they want then such behavior will continue and get more pronounced.  This is a normal and expected part of development.  It is up to the parent (or other caregiver) to not reward behavior that is undesirable. Because rewarded behavior is repeated behavior.  Sadly this is easier said then done because in the middle of a meltdown giving them what they want will naturally stop the meltdown.

 

I wouldn't even know how to stop him having a tantrum without giving into him. 

[Alia]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

And like @Jane_Doe, I learned this from my 2 boys who made the term "terrible twos" sound like a kitten to a lion.  

 

I am not looking forward to that or having to discipline him. My husband already knows I am not going to be able to tell our son off. 

[Manners Matter]

25 minutes ago, Alia said:

I wouldn't even know how to stop him having a tantrum without giving into him. 

Listen to these short podcasts and/or read the blog posts here: https://cw.liveyourtruth.com/podcast/

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, Alia said:

I am not looking forward to that or having to discipline him. My husband already knows I am not going to be able to tell our son off. 

I hope you're not really serious about this.  You're gonna have to figure it out.  Please don't raise children who will be a burden to society.  I mean, we ask nothing less of people who own dogs who think they can just leave the training to dogsitters, or worse let dogs out to socialize without knowing how to behave properly.  How much more for children.  It is YOUR responsibility.  Not just your husband's.  And it sure isn't the babysitter's or school teacher's.  I don't mean to sound harsh but there are too many kids in school who has not learned discipline who make it harder for the other kids in class as the teacher has to interrupt instruction to correct disruptive behavior that kids should have mastered at home.

So, I understand if you find disciplining your kid hard.  But you can't just say, "I can't do it".  You're gonna need to do it.  So it's best to start to learn how to do it now.  I got lesson 1 ready for you:  "The objective is not for your kid to like you.  The objective is for you (and everybody else) to like your kid.  It's hard to like a misbehaved kid, even for his mother."

Edited February 12, 2019 by anatess2

[Manners Matter]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

"The objective is not for your kid to like you.  The objective is for you (and everybody else) to like your kid.  Nobody likes a misbehaved kid."

… and nobody likes to have parents over if they think they're going to bring their misbehaved kids so this also affects your social life. Just some food for thought, @Alia.

[unixknight]

On 2/4/2019 at 9:20 PM, Vort said:

It's one thing to have a child that crawls away and you have to go get him (or have others hand him to you, or wait for him to come back). That's pretty much everybody's experience, just a part of having children at Church. In my view, it's quite another thing to set your child on the floor and then smile while he runs up and down the aisle, in front of the speaker, etc. I was referring to the latter thing, not the former.

That's something I find infuriating.  We're all patient with peoples' kids because we have to be, and we understand.  But there's a certain unspoken understanding that you're still going to make the effort to keep your kids under control as best you can. 

My wife once took our baby to the mom's room to feed her.  She'd just fallen asleep when another parent came in with their kid, who I believe was round 4 years old.  The kid was making a bunch of noise, slapping the wall over and over, and immediately woke our baby up.  What did the other mom do?  Just smiled with that "ain't he cute?" look, utterly oblivious to the fact that he'd just woken up the baby.  That same kid could  often be seen running up and down the steps to where the Bishopric sat. 

I think somebody must have spoken to them, because lately it's been a LOT better.

[estradling75]

4 hours ago, Alia said:

I wouldn't even know how to stop him having a tantrum without giving into him. 

First note that many of us who are giving you advice, have failed at some point.  A singular failure is not the end of the world.  We are talking more about repeated actions.  Second also note that your response needs to be age based.  For example you respond to a infant to feed them in the middle of the night when they demand it... whereas if your teenager wakes you in the middle of the night demanding food you have issues you need to deal with and it is not feeding them.

So as for tantrums the younger they are the less damaging it is to give in, but you must adapt and change as the kid gets older.  The older they are the more likely a warning (and follow through) of discipline can work.  Younger kids are less likely to understand such warning, but they are more easily distracted.  So those are options...  And of course there is always the option to basically ignore the tantrum.  If you are meeting the Kid's needs on a regular basis, a tantrum is not going to hurt them.  If you are in public get them where they aren't going to bother others and let them melt down. They spend a lot of energy and effort for nothing.  Then once they are done and back to normal... reward the restored normal and nice behavior  

Edited February 13, 2019 by estradling75

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Alia said:

I wouldn't even know how to stop him having a tantrum without giving into him. 

Alia, would you want to stop your son's tantrum, or do you consider it a virtue that you love him so much that you would give into him rather than disappoint him? Sincere question.

[Alia]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

Alia, would you want to stop your son's tantrum, or do you consider it a virtue that you love him so much that you would give into him rather than disappoint him? Sincere question.

I would just give him what he wanted in the first place if I didn't want to disappoint him. When he has a tantrum because I won't let him draw with his crayons on the wall I don't give into him. Somethings aren't worth the battle so I let him have what he wants.  

 

[Alia]

14 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I hope you're not really serious about this.  You're gonna have to figure it out.  Please don't raise children who will be a burden to society.  I mean, we ask nothing less of people who own dogs who think they can just leave the training to dogsitters, or worse let dogs out to socialize without knowing how to behave properly.  How much more for children.  It is YOUR responsibility.  Not just your husband's.  And it sure isn't the babysitter's or school teacher's.  I don't mean to sound harsh but there are too many kids in school who has not learned discipline who make it harder for the other kids in class as the teacher has to interrupt instruction to correct disruptive behavior that kids should have mastered at home.

 So, I understand if you find disciplining your kid hard.  But you can't just say, "I can't do it".  You're gonna need to do it.  So it's best to start to learn how to do it now.  I got lesson 1 ready for you:  "The objective is not for your kid to like you.  The objective is for you (and everybody else) to like your kid.  Nobody likes a misbehaved kid, not even his mother."

Yes discipline is important. I don't want to be responsible for discipling him, I want to be the "fun" parent. It doesn't come naturally to me to discipline children

Edited February 13, 2019 by Alia

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Alia said:

Yes discipline is important. I don't want to be responsible for discipling him, I want to be the "fun" parent. It doesn't come naturally to me to discipline children

There is no "non disciplinary" option in parenting.  Even fun has to be outlined with discipline.  Is a critical skill that you have to learn, even if does not come naturally.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Jane_Doe

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Alia said:

Yes discipline is important. I don't want to be responsible for discipling him, I want to be the "fun" parent. It doesn't come naturally to me to discipline children

I hate to break it to ya, Alia but parenting doesn't work this way.  You being the "fun" parent is a disservice to your husband and not only makes all his efforts null and void, it makes your child hate your husband for his efforts.

But, don't be sad... you will get your chance... you can be the "fun" grandparent!  That's where you get to do all the fun and games then hand the grandkid over to their parents when they start throwing tantrums or soil their diapers.

 

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Alia said:

Yes discipline is important. I don't want to be responsible for discipling him, I want to be the "fun" parent. It doesn't come naturally to me to discipline children

Note discipline  is protective... you are saying that you do not want to protect your child... and I just do not think that is true.  Discipline is to take the long view (or at least a longer view then your child).

For example a toddler might think it is fun to play in the pots and pans.  As a parent when you have a pot of boiling water you are going to act quickly and firmly when they try to play with that pot.  You are going to say no... you might slap their hands... you might distract them... you might do hundreds of different things... but you are not going to let them get that pot of boiling water...  That is discipline... and you will do it and you can still be a "Fun" parent.

You do need to take the long view with your child and that is you have the responsibility to turn them into a happy competent functional adult...  With that view in place discipline and fun will come naturally as needed.  But you got to keep the view

[unixknight]

I have found (6 kids and counting, the oldest turning 26 today and the youngest is a yea and a half old) that I've bonded the closest when I am both fun AND a disciplinarian.  I'm firm, sometimes you could even say I'm mean.  I lay down the rules and I'm quite strict.  I punish swiftly and without hesitation.  (Usually that means revocation of privileges, grounding, toys taken away, etc.)  I have a  practiced and highly effective "daddy voice" that brooks no talkback.  I am an authoritative (not authoritarian) parent.

BUT 

That's balanced with my always listening to my kids when they need to express themselves.  I engage in activities with them, like building/launching model rockets, wrestling with them, teaching them things like fixing cars or building a Space  Marine suit, we work on models and miniatures together, I share my childhood loves with them, and how to program computers.

My 10-year-old daughter becomes distraught if she doesn't get her "daddy time" every evening, where we talk, watch funny videos, work on her science projects, etc.  My youngest son (7) likes to hang out with me in the activity room because he can ask me for help and/or advice when working on his plastic models.  I allow them to play video games on my gaming computer I built last year, and they help me with my hobbies.  That quality time together is spent laughing and playing around.  We even occasionally get really goofy, like when I instigated a food fight at the end of dinner one evening last week when momma was at work 😎

All of my kids and I are very close because kids crave discipline, and they crave positive attention, and a balanced parent gives them both.  That's how kids know you love them.  You not only let them have fun and play, but you provide them with a framework for how that play needs to happen (nobody getting injured, no property being damaged, etc.)  Disciplining a child shows them you love them every bit as much as  giving them a gift or letting them have a privilege.  And you know what?  They do perceive it that way.  

The most important thing though, is be consistent.  No matter what you do or how you do it, if you're consistent, it's better than having a wildly inconsistent approach.

I'm a strict disciplinarian but not once has any of my kids ever told me they hated me, or been afraid to tell me how they're feeling.  Even when I'm furious at them, I let them give me their side (as long as it's not talking back.  There's a difference, and my kids know what it is.)  And sometimes I'm wrong.  When I'm wrong, I back down and apologize because that too is a valuable lesson to teach the kids.  Set an example.

Apologies for rambling, the short version is this:  Disciplining your kids will strengthen your bond with them, not weaken it.  They need you to be their parent, not their friend.  They've got plenty of friends but only two parents.

[Alia]

5 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

There is no "non disciplinary" option in parenting.  Even fun has to be outlined with discipline.  Is a critical skill that you have to learn, even if does not come naturally.

I never remember my mother discipling me. 

[Alia]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I hate to break it to ya, Alia but parenting doesn't work this way.  You being the "fun" parent is a disservice to your husband and not only makes all his efforts null and void, it makes your child hate your husband for his efforts.

 

My mother never disciplined me I remember her talking me through a few things and explaining what I did wrong but there was never a "made up" punishment from her. I know to discipline a child is loving but I don't see myself doing it. 

[anatess2]

30 minutes ago, Alia said:

My mother never disciplined me I remember her talking me through a few things and explaining what I did wrong but there was never a "made up" punishment from her. I know to discipline a child is loving but I don't see myself doing it. 

I think the problem we have here is that you might have a warped view of what Discipline means and what it entails.

So, let me ask you... what do you think needs be done so that your child will grow up to be a well-mannered person?  You know he isn't well-mannered right now because as you have shared, you can't even take him to a one-hour event that is very important.  How do you think you're going to change that kid from the "embarassing" kid that he is now to a person you'll be comfortable and proud to take out in public?

 

And P.S... I don't have "made up" punishment for my kids.  Rather, we have rules and consequences.  I make rules and give consequences for not following those rules.  These consequences are "practice" so that your child can learn how to behave without needing to experience the DIRE consequences.  For example:  You teach your child obedience.  The consequence for disobedience is your displeasure.  This consequence is a much more survivable consequence than if you don't teach your child obedience, he walks into the middle of a busy street and you yell at him, "Get off the road!"... and since he didn't learn to obey he ignores you which then receives the dire consequence of getting hit by a Mack truck.  Do you understand?

Also, it is more likely that your mother didn't wait until you were old enough to be explained to to teach you good manners.  You might not have remembered it because... I don't know... you were 17 months old at the time. 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by anatess2

[unixknight]

13 minutes ago, Alia said:

I know to discipline a child is loving but I don't see myself doing it. 

Then you encourage tantrums and allow the child to be in charge.