Rewards and Punishments.

[Traveler]

I wanted to respond with a new thread to a discussion I was having with @Rob Osborn.  It is sort of about where we end up in eternity but I do not want it to be that heavy.  Rather I would explore how G-d rewards and punishes.  In short, I do not believe G-d “rewards” or “punishes”.  At least not in the way most seem to think, believe and expect.

Perhaps it is my background but I do not believe in rewards or punishments.  If my kids did not like what was for dinner – they were welcome to go to the store, buy with their own money what they wanted and fix it themselves (this was not an option for me growing up).   I must admit that with my children – I would use rewards and punishments as a teaching method.  It is just that I do not believe rewards or punishments are true motivations of behaviors nor do they instill values, morals or better understanding of life (including eternal life).  

Weather does not change for someone that is good nor bad.  It is the same for everybody.  Scripture tells us that G-d is no respecter of persons – what he will do for one he will do for all.  There are scriptures that speak of rewards and punishments – but as I study such scripture what is spoken of as a reward or punishment seem to be no different than “natural” consequences rather than a gift or effort force preferred behavior.  In fact – some scripture seem to me to indicate that one’s attitude are even more important than actual action.  So that if a person is not willing then there is no reward regardless of doing it.  One thing I have learned about rewards – If someone does not love doing what is necessary for the reward (regardless of the reward) they will eventually quit doing whatever and forgo the reward.

As for punishments – I must admit I cannot understand or comprehend any eternal punishment.  If we were to list the top 100 most evil things a person can do – I cannot imagine an eternal punishment for any of them or even all of them together.  Adultery and murder are both really bad things.  But after 21 billion years why should anyone having done both; profit anything or anyone by remaining damned and still being punished in hell?  Does anyone love watching someone being punished?  If you do – I am completely convinced that you are more suited for hell than the person you are enjoying seeing suffer their punishment.  Do I need to explain in greater detail my reasons for thinking this?

 

The Traveler

[Grunt]

I look at it more as "consequences".  There are eternal truths, just like there are mortal truths.   If you follow Christ as a mortal, you progress to exaltation. If you don't, you won't.  If you eat healthy and exercise as a child, you grow stronger and faster, if you don't eat and drink, you die.   

It's just actions and results.  He's given us the answers.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I wanted to respond with a new thread to a discussion I was having with @Rob Osborn.  It is sort of about where we end up in eternity but I do not want it to be that heavy.  Rather I would explore how G-d rewards and punishes.  In short, I do not believe G-d “rewards” or “punishes”.  At least not in the way most seem to think, believe and expect.

Perhaps it is my background but I do not believe in rewards or punishments.  If my kids did not like what was for dinner – they were welcome to go to the store, buy with their own money what they wanted and fix it themselves (this was not an option for me growing up).   I must admit that with my children – I would use rewards and punishments as a teaching method.  It is just that I do not believe rewards or punishments are true motivations of behaviors nor do they instill values, morals or better understanding of life (including eternal life).  

Weather does not change for someone that is good nor bad.  It is the same for everybody.  Scripture tells us that G-d is no respecter of persons – what he will do for one he will do for all.  There are scriptures that speak of rewards and punishments – but as I study such scripture what is spoken of as a reward or punishment seem to be no different than “natural” consequences rather than a gift or effort force preferred behavior.  In fact – some scripture seem to me to indicate that one’s attitude are even more important than actual action.  So that if a person is not willing then there is no reward regardless of doing it.  One thing I have learned about rewards – If someone does not love doing what is necessary for the reward (regardless of the reward) they will eventually quit doing whatever and forgo the reward.

As for punishments – I must admit I cannot understand or comprehend any eternal punishment.  If we were to list the top 100 most evil things a person can do – I cannot imagine an eternal punishment for any of them or even all of them together.  Adultery and murder are both really bad things.  But after 21 billion years why should anyone having done both; profit anything or anyone by remaining damned and still being punished in hell?  Does anyone love watching someone being punished?  If you do – I am completely convinced that you are more suited for hell than the person you are enjoying seeing suffer their punishment.  Do I need to explain in greater detail my reasons for thinking this?

 

The Traveler

I think God can exercise a higher law within a lesser kingdom and thereby intervenes to reward or punish His children in mortality both individually and collectively, largely to teach and to testify of His ways. I also think that just as in this life, God assigns “the bounds of their habitation” in eternity “because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge” (Acts 17: 24-31). Otherwise, consequences follow the laws that are established and in operation for their respective realms (hence the physical rains and sunshine fall on both the spiritually evil and the good in mortality; lesser immortal kingdoms are dependent upon the ministrations of higher kingdoms).

D&C 19 defines eternal punishment (and by extrapolation, reward). Yes, the torment may diminish or wear off over time just as with a physical amputation, but the effects (i.e. being “cut off and destroyed forever” – 2 Nephi 1:17) linger. The punished may remain miserable (suffering unhappiness), but not tormented (suffering the utmost unhappiness), forever (2 Nephi 2:5) in that they cannot progress. Agency, which allows us to progress, does not wear off or diminish but expands unto godliness, which remains with the exalted.

Edited February 3, 2019 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I wanted to respond with a new thread to a discussion I was having with @Rob Osborn.  It is sort of about where we end up in eternity but I do not want it to be that heavy.  Rather I would explore how G-d rewards and punishes.  In short, I do not believe G-d “rewards” or “punishes”.  At least not in the way most seem to think, believe and expect.

Perhaps it is my background but I do not believe in rewards or punishments.  If my kids did not like what was for dinner – they were welcome to go to the store, buy with their own money what they wanted and fix it themselves (this was not an option for me growing up).   I must admit that with my children – I would use rewards and punishments as a teaching method.  It is just that I do not believe rewards or punishments are true motivations of behaviors nor do they instill values, morals or better understanding of life (including eternal life).  

Weather does not change for someone that is good nor bad.  It is the same for everybody.  Scripture tells us that G-d is no respecter of persons – what he will do for one he will do for all.  There are scriptures that speak of rewards and punishments – but as I study such scripture what is spoken of as a reward or punishment seem to be no different than “natural” consequences rather than a gift or effort force preferred behavior.  In fact – some scripture seem to me to indicate that one’s attitude are even more important than actual action.  So that if a person is not willing then there is no reward regardless of doing it.  One thing I have learned about rewards – If someone does not love doing what is necessary for the reward (regardless of the reward) they will eventually quit doing whatever and forgo the reward.

As for punishments – I must admit I cannot understand or comprehend any eternal punishment.  If we were to list the top 100 most evil things a person can do – I cannot imagine an eternal punishment for any of them or even all of them together.  Adultery and murder are both really bad things.  But after 21 billion years why should anyone having done both; profit anything or anyone by remaining damned and still being punished in hell?  Does anyone love watching someone being punished?  If you do – I am completely convinced that you are more suited for hell than the person you are enjoying seeing suffer their punishment.  Do I need to explain in greater detail my reasons for thinking this?

 

The Traveler

Whether we like to admit it or not we must be motivated by outcomes in order to act. For instance- I go to work everyday and I'm motivated by several rewards. They are- finishing the project at hand, recognition by the customer and others for a job well done, money, being busy and staying productive, learning, serving others, health, etc, etc. There's also the flip side that motivates me if I don't do the work, they may be- not finishing the project, unhappy boss and customers, not getting paid or possibly fired, becoming lazy, bad health, not serving others, etc, etc.

In my job we are always looking for ways to be motivated and productive. Rewards and punishments always come into play. It's not that we don't like to work it's just that we must use tools of rewards or punishment to keep things in order. We can't just say- "ahh, I'll get to that job one of these days, no big hurry, let's go fishing instead". No, there has to be goals and goals need to be looked at in the light of accomplishing a result. For God, his goal or reward is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That's what motivates him, it is a reward to help others and bring about happiness. On the other hand, with Satan and others who follow him it's about being motivated by becoming more powerful and feared, being able to have more power over the hearts of others. The difference is however, there is no real reward for them, just greater depths of misery. But that's how evil is when it gets at that low level- they somehow glory in misery and making others miserable. It gets to a point where they truly can't see how to find joy anymore, everything they do just worsens things. But yet, they won't stop either because they love that dark power.

[Rob Osborn]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think God can exercise a higher law within a lesser kingdom and thereby intervenes to reward or punish His children in mortality both individually and collectively, largely to teach and to testify of His ways. I also think that just as in this life, God assigns “the bounds of their habitation” in eternity “because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge” (Acts 17: 24-31). Otherwise, consequences follow the laws that are established and in operation for their respective realms (hence the physical rains and sunshine fall on both the spiritually evil and the good in mortality; lesser immortal kingdoms are dependent upon the ministrations of higher kingdoms).

D&C 19 defines eternal punishment (and by extrapolation, reward). Yes, the torment may diminish or wear off over time just as with a physical amputation, but the effects (i.e. being “cut off and destroyed forever” – 2 Nephi 1:17) linger. The punished may remain miserable (suffering unhappiness), but not tormented (suffering the utmost unhappiness), forever (2 Nephi 2:5) in that they cannot progress. Agency, which allows us to progress, does not wear off or diminish but expands unto godliness, which remains with the exalted.

I would put forth the condition of the path again here as I don't believe it's possible once one has entered the path towards eternal life to have a different outcome other than eternal life itself. There won't be miserably saved souls. Why, because eventually they all shall be gods and shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father.

18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. (Proverbs 4:18)

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 13:43)

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Whether we like to admit it or not we must be motivated by outcomes in order to act. For instance- I go to work everyday and I'm motivated by several rewards. They are- finishing the project at hand, recognition by the customer and others for a job well done, money, being busy and staying productive, learning, serving others, health, etc, etc. There's also the flip side that motivates me if I don't do the work, they may be- not finishing the project, unhappy boss and customers, not getting paid or possibly fired, becoming lazy, bad health, not serving others, etc, etc.

In my job we are always looking for ways to be motivated and productive. Rewards and punishments always come into play. It's not that we don't like to work it's just that we must use tools of rewards or punishment to keep things in order. We can't just say- "ahh, I'll get to that job one of these days, no big hurry, let's go fishing instead". No, there has to be goals and goals need to be looked at in the light of accomplishing a result. For God, his goal or reward is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That's what motivates him, it is a reward to help others and bring about happiness. On the other hand, with Satan and others who follow him it's about being motivated by becoming more powerful and feared, being able to have more power over the hearts of others. The difference is however, there is no real reward for them, just greater depths of misery. But that's how evil is when it gets at that low level- they somehow glory in misery and making others miserable. It gets to a point where they truly can't see how to find joy anymore, everything they do just worsens things. But yet, they won't stop either because they love that dark power.

This motivation is what D&C 19 is about. The called need to be motivated (verse 7, "work upon the hearts of the children of men") by such terminology; the chosen (verse 8 and 9, "it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles... you that are chosen") obtain greater understanding of such terminology. The called need to become chosen, and motivated to do so, and so they are taught and receive the testimony of eternal life, eternal punishment, eternal glory, eternal damnation, etc.

Now there is also an absolute context for this terminology, reserved for sons of perdition (D&C 76:44).

Edited February 3, 2019 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This motivation is what D&C 19 is about. The called need to be motivated (verse 7, "work upon the hearts of the children of men") by such terminology; the chosen (verse 8 and 9, "it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles... you that are chosen") obtain greater understanding of such terminology. The called need to become chosen, and motivated to do so, and so they are taught and receive the testimony of eternal life, eternal punishment, eternal glory, eternal damnation, etc.

Now there is also an absolute context for this terminology, reserved for sons of perdition (D&C 76:44).

So, I've often wondered, is there an end of suffering for the sons of perdition? It may appear the door is open for that possibility.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Whether we like to admit it or not we must be motivated by outcomes in order to act. For instance- I go to work everyday and I'm motivated by several rewards. They are- finishing the project at hand, recognition by the customer and others for a job well done, money, being busy and staying productive, learning, serving others, health, etc, etc. There's also the flip side that motivates me if I don't do the work, they may be- not finishing the project, unhappy boss and customers, not getting paid or possibly fired, becoming lazy, bad health, not serving others, etc, etc.

You can look at the world this way.  

Another perspective is to recognize that we do things because of love.

I don’t provide for and protect my wife and children because I expect a reward from them, or for fear of a punishment.

I care for them because I love them.

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

Rather I would explore how G-d rewards and punishes. 

For me, this is answered in D&C 130:20-21: 

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

As I see it, the notion of cause and effect in general, and in particular the precept that behaviors have consequences, permeates the operational structure of existence. Indeed, it is a critical element of he  Plan of Progression. As such, if a parent (be it the Father or mortal custodians) desires that their children function effectively within existence, or in other words if they wish for their children to continue to progress, it behooves them to teach their children about cause and effect and behaviors having consequences 

One of the best practices for instructing in this regard is a system of rewards and punishment. Examples of this from the ultimate Teacher are replete throughout the scriptures.

Having said this, experience suggests that at the upper end of character development, progress will diminish where rewards and punishment are the key motivators. What is needed to progress further is a sense of duty and responsibility and obedience irrespective of reward and punishment. And, to progress even further one needs to become charitable (i.e. like Christ), at times at the very expense of reward, or in other words by way of the law of sacrifice.

So, while the Father uses rewards and punishment to assist His children to progress to a point,  He offers other means of progression once they become a "man" or "woman."

Tnanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 4, 2019 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

You can look at the world this way.  

Another perspective is to recognize that we do things because of love.

I don’t provide for and protect my wife and children because I expect a reward from them, or for fear of a punishment.

I care for them because I love them.

But "love" is the reward, that's my point. We're all motivated by something

[mikbone]

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But "love" is the reward, that's my point. We're all motivated by something

You misunderstand my point or you are too obstinate to recognize your error.

I don’t act so that I will receive love from them.  I act because I love them.  

Perhaps you are emmotionally immature and cannot perceive the possibility of acting without the promise of a reward.

You could read Steven Covey’s The Devine Center...   But from reading your prior responses I recognize that you are not here to learn, you only wish to spout your personal doctrine.

Your beliefs have no space for true love, charity, or sacrifice.

Your belief system is called hedonism, it is nothing new.

Edited February 4, 2019 by mikbone

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, mikbone said:

You misunderstand my point or you are too obstinate to recognize your error.

I don’t act so that I will receive love from them.  I act because I love them.  

Perhaps you are emmotionally immature and cannot perceive the possibility of acting without the promise of a reward.

You could read Steven Covey’s The Devine Center...   But from reading your prior responses I recognize that you are not here to learn, you only wish to spout your personal doctrine.

Your beliefs have no space for true love, charity, or sacrifice.

Your belief system is called hedonism, it is nothing new.

I don't think we understand each other. I think we are mostly saying the same thing, just from different angles.

[mikbone]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't think we understand each other. I think we are mostly saying the same thing, just from different angles.

I think I understand you thoroughly.  And I whole heartedly disagree with you. 

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I think I understand you thoroughly.  And I whole heartedly disagree with you. 

I don't think you understand. Give me a bit to post because I think you will agree with me

[Rob Osborn]

45 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I think I understand you thoroughly.  And I whole heartedly disagree with you. 

Every action we consciously make we are already looking at the possible outcomes, dangers, rewards, etc. For example, say we we're to go hiking on a cliff edge that had drop offs of thousands of feet. We stay away from the deges as much as possible, we are extra cautious. But why? Because we are motivated by the increased chance of incurring serious injury or death. Perhaps it's just the fear, but the fact remains, we are motivated to take the safest precautions for fear of injury, pain, etc. But, in the same token, we are also rewarded with going through with it because it's exhilarating, it's exciting, it's accomplishing something hard, etc. That motivates us. That reward. Take another example- for me I trying to lose weight and get in better shape. I've lost 40 pounds. Why did I do it though? Was there a reward I was looking forward to? You bet. I want more energy, I want to live longer, I want to have better sleep, do away with heartburn, etc. I'm am reaping some of the rewards now. 

And so it is with following Christ. The reward for choosing the right is peace in this life and peace in the life to come. I'm not sure about you but I also experienced to some degree the anguish that Alma and the Son's of Mosiah went through of being cast off forever. Suffered many terrifying nights overcoming it/suffering through it. I don't really think people understand what hell is like, the horrifying anguish of it. But, having experienced it I have a very great appreciation for peace now- that companionship of the Spirit. I love that feeling of the sweet spirit of the Lord. I want others to experience and feel it to. That's a great reward. Whether we want to keep it in view or not, our motivation in choosing the right is finding peace in Christ for ourselves and others. We don't do things in name only without feeling. We always try to see the possible outcomes that may result from an action. And it is that outcome or process that motivates us. It's just our nature.

We love others because the reward is giving peace to another and through that we gain extra peace ourselves. 

 

[mikbone]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And so it is with following Christ. The reward for choosing the right is peace in this life and peace in the life to come. I'm not sure about you but I also experienced to some degree the anguish that Alma and the Son's of Mosiah went through of being cast off forever. Suffered many terrifying nights overcoming it/suffering through it. I don't really think people understand what hell is like, the horrifying anguish of it. But, having experienced it I have a very great appreciation for peace now- that companionship of the Spirit. I love that feeling of the sweet spirit of the Lord. I want others to experience and feel it to. That's a great reward. Whether we want to keep it in view or not, our motivation in choosing the right is finding peace in Christ for ourselves and others. We don't do things in name only without feeling. We always try to see the possible outcomes that may result from an action. And it is that outcome or process that motivates us. It's just our nature.

Yes you have already made your point.

Your philosophy is hedonism.  

I deny your philosophy.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Yes you have already made your point.

Your philosophy is hedonism.  

I deny your philosophy.

Hum...maybe we still aren't on the same page understanding each other. Do you thus deny this philosophy-

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. (2 Nephi 2:25)

[Rob Osborn]

Or perhaps you reject this-

23 But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come. (D&C 59:23)

[mikbone]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...maybe we still aren't on the same page understanding each other. Do you thus deny this philosophy-

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. (2 Nephi 2:25)

You and I are unlikely to ever be on the same page (in this life).

You are spouting Hedonism.  Do some basic philosophy research.

[Rob Osborn]

51 minutes ago, mikbone said:

You and I are unlikely to ever be on the same page (in this life).

You are spouting Hedonism.  Do some basic philosophy research.

I know what hedonism is. I think you are missing the point. I will try one more time. 

A quick question- why aren't you going to go and turn the stove on and wait till it gets red hot and then place your hand directly on it for 3 seconds?

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

You and I are unlikely to ever be on the same page (in this life).

You are spouting Hedonism.  Do some basic philosophy research.

It may help to read my post above because it explains how Rob is correct up to a point, but also how he is self-blinded to higher layers of character development and motivation like what you mentioned--not that it will make a difference to the typically counterproductive nature of discussions with him. But, at least there is the possibility that you may gain something from what I suggest..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Grunt]

My cat thinks he's a dog.  

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, wenglund said:

It may help to read my post above because it explains how Rob is correct up to a point, but also how he is self-blinded to higher layers of character development and motivation like what you mentioned--not that it will make a difference to the typically counterproductive nature of discussions with him. But, at least there is the possibility that you may gain something from what I suggest..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm correct the whole way through. The two scriptures I posted shows exactly how I understand. Do you enjoy trolling me?

[zil]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

My cat thinks he's a dog.  

Did you name it "Spot"?

I had a dog named "cat" (in Russian - Koshka, long O, stress on the first syllable). Lab-border collie-something whippet-like mix.  She was way too smart.  Here's what she looked like when we brought her home:

(This thread needed an animal photo.)

[Sunday21]

3 hours ago, Grunt said:

My cat thinks he's a dog.  

 

11 minutes ago, zil said:

Did you name it "Spot"?

I had a dog named "cat" (in Russian - Koshka, long O, stress on the first syllable). Lab-border collie-something whippet-like mix.  She was way too smart.  Here's what she looked like when we brought her home:

(This thread needed an animal photo.)

So cute! That dog looks like a plotter! How to get dinner off the table in 5 steps. I can readily see how that dog could be a very best friend ever!