Rewards and Punishments.

[Rob Osborn]

19 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That is YOUR problem.

Others of us believe that "...for with God all things are possible." (LK 1:37; Mk 10:27)

Besides, you aren't grasping what I am saying. No problem. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What kind of answer is that? What specifically are you addressing?

[Fifthziff]

On 2/3/2019 at 1:42 PM, Traveler said:

I wanted to respond with a new thread to a discussion I was having with @Rob Osborn.  It is sort of about where we end up in eternity but I do not want it to be that heavy.  Rather I would explore how G-d rewards and punishes.  In short, I do not believe G-d “rewards” or “punishes”.  At least not in the way most seem to think, believe and expect.

Perhaps it is my background but I do not believe in rewards or punishments.  If my kids did not like what was for dinner – they were welcome to go to the store, buy with their own money what they wanted and fix it themselves (this was not an option for me growing up).   I must admit that with my children – I would use rewards and punishments as a teaching method.  It is just that I do not believe rewards or punishments are true motivations of behaviors nor do they instill values, morals or better understanding of life (including eternal life).  

Weather does not change for someone that is good nor bad.  It is the same for everybody.  Scripture tells us that G-d is no respecter of persons – what he will do for one he will do for all.  There are scriptures that speak of rewards and punishments – but as I study such scripture what is spoken of as a reward or punishment seem to be no different than “natural” consequences rather than a gift or effort force preferred behavior.  In fact – some scripture seem to me to indicate that one’s attitude are even more important than actual action.  So that if a person is not willing then there is no reward regardless of doing it.  One thing I have learned about rewards – If someone does not love doing what is necessary for the reward (regardless of the reward) they will eventually quit doing whatever and forgo the reward.

As for punishments – I must admit I cannot understand or comprehend any eternal punishment.  If we were to list the top 100 most evil things a person can do – I cannot imagine an eternal punishment for any of them or even all of them together.  Adultery and murder are both really bad things.  But after 21 billion years why should anyone having done both; profit anything or anyone by remaining damned and still being punished in hell?  Does anyone love watching someone being punished?  If you do – I am completely convinced that you are more suited for hell than the person you are enjoying seeing suffer their punishment.  Do I need to explain in greater detail my reasons for thinking this?

 

The Traveler

Christianity is based in a vicarious act, an act that was done for us with which we receive the full reward without having to reproduce the act ourselves. Yes, there is something that has to be done but we can be rewarded with something we did not do directly.  The reward itself is that of having the ability to share glory.  That means we get to share in the glory of something that we did not directly do, have all that God has.  This is why loving our neighbor as self is a prerequisite to receiving such a shared glory.  Is this not the story of the prodigal son?  Even for the son that stayed.  The desire we must have to receive a fullness of glory is that of wanting another's success and the desire to be one with the Lord and God.  

[wenglund]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

What kind of answer is that? What specifically are you addressing?

I was addressing multiple things, but let's just consider the statement you made to me. You said, "I dont think its possible to not keep the end goal in mind and that in and of itself is the primary motivating factor."

Yesterday I paid my tithes and offerings online. When I did so, the thought never crossed my mind that I may be avoiding the punishment of burning at the last day. Nor, for that matter, did it cross my mind that the widows of heaven might be opened and I may receive the reward of blessings being poured out upon me--and this even though I have been gratefully blessed by doing so in the past, for I would do so even were that not the case. In fact, I would do so even if bad things were to happen to me and others as a result thereof.  And, if you understood my situation you may realize this was a distinct possibility.

Furthermore, the end goal of achieving exaltation didn't occur to me in the least--partly because, for reasons of my own,  I am not consciously working towards that goal.  

Rather, the only thing that occurred to me was that it was Fast Sunday and that is when I pay my tithes and offerings.  

The payment has become, and was a course of habit and a function of who and what I now am.  Nothing more or less than that.

So, while it may be impossible for YOU to not keep the end goal in mind when obeying God's commands, it is not only possible or plausible, but a reality in my case, and this with God's help.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[Grunt]

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Is s/he right?

Pretty much. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

I was addressing multiple things, but let's just consider the statement you made to me. You said, "I dont think its possible to not keep the end goal in mind and that in and of itself is the primary motivating factor."

Yesterday I paid my tithes and offerings online. When I did so, the thought never crossed my mind that I may be avoiding the punishment of burning at the last day. Nor, for that matter, did it cross my mind that the widows of heaven might be opened and I may receive the reward of blessings being poured out upon me--and this even though I have been gratefully blessed by doing so in the past, for I would do so even were that not the case. In fact, I would do so even if bad things were to happen to me and others as a result thereof.  And, if you understood my situation you may realize this was a distinct possibility.

Furthermore, the end goal of achieving exaltation didn't occur to me in the least--partly because, for reasons of my own,  I am not consciously working towards that goal.  

Rather, the only thing that occurred to me was that it was Fast Sunday and that is when I pay my tithes and offerings.  

The payment has become, and was a course of habit and a function of who and what I now am.  Nothing more or less than that.

So, while it may be impossible for YOU to not keep the end goal in mind when obeying God's commands, it is not only possible or plausible, but a reality in my case, and this with God's help.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I suppose at times it may be the case where we act and do almost mindlessly because it's what we are supposed to do and we aren't thinking of "reward". But, as we move towards godliness I am of the opinion that our definition of "rewards" changes and as we see the bigger picture of things the end goal or "plan" leading to the result becomes what may be defined, more or less, as "rewards". It's just a different and less selfish way of looking at and using the word. For example, I work with youth and we do a lot of service. Their ideas of rewards, as young youth just coming in, is seen more as some refreshments after, or a pat on the back and recognition, etc. One day, moving a heavy couch down some stairs, some of the youth were complaining. I jumped in and after a bit we wrangled the thing into place. I said "that, my boys, is what it's all about". They looked at me like I was crazy. I said- "isn't it a great blessing to have health and the ability to solve problems and serve others". They said-."...uhhhh...sure.".

They didn't quite get it. But after a few years that idea of rewards in that light started setting in with them. Now, some of my youth really look forward to serving work because that new perception of the reward not being recognition, a pat on the back, or even refreshments, but rather the gift of having strong muscles, the ability to serve others and help out and what a blessing that is. They see that now as a reward. 

It's about changing our perception of rewards and what motivates us and why. There's always a reward for actions. But that reward is different for everyone. It's about bringing our thoughts in line with God and seeing the right reward and being blessed for it. 

As applied in our homes, we serve our spouse because we look forward to the godly reward of easing another's burden, bringing joy to someone else, etc, and that through their peace and joy we gain it to and over time that peace and joy we gain for ourselves and others becomes our motivating force and cause for action. That is the godly reward. 

I think too often we look at "rewards" as a type of selfish pay for doing a deed. But, this is not how God uses "rewards". We must change our minds to to look at rewards as the effects of actions and how those affect us. It's about seeing the whole picture. Take tithing for example- one could mindlessly pay thinking of no reward. The bigger picture though is recognizing that tithing going to help the poor and hungry, that easing another's burden monetarily is a great feeling of peace and that in that process of understanding we gain the reward of that peace and knowledge. 

[wenglund]

7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I suppose at times it may be the case where we act and do almost mindlessly because it's what we are supposed to do and we aren't thinking of "reward". But, as we move towards godliness I am of the opinion that our definition of "rewards" changes and as we see the bigger picture of things the end goal or "plan" leading to the result becomes what may be defined, more or less, as "rewards". It's just a different and less selfish way of looking at and using the word. For example, I work with youth and we do a lot of service. Their ideas of rewards, as young youth just coming in, is seen more as some refreshments after, or a pat on the back and recognition, etc. One day, moving a heavy couch down some stairs, some of the youth were complaining. I jumped in and after a bit we wrangled the thing into place. I said "that, my boys, is what it's all about". They looked at me like I was crazy. I said- "isn't it a great blessing to have health and the ability to solve problems and serve others". They said-."...uhhhh...sure.".

They didn't quite get it. But after a few years that idea of rewards in that light started setting in with them. Now, some of my youth really look forward to serving work because that new perception of the reward not being recognition, a pat on the back, or even refreshments, but rather the gift of having strong muscles, the ability to serve others and help out and what a blessing that is. They see that now as a reward. 

It's about changing our perception of rewards and what motivates us and why. There's always a reward for actions. But that reward is different for everyone. It's about bringing our thoughts in line with God and seeing the right reward and being blessed for it. 

As applied in our homes, we serve our spouse because we look forward to the godly reward of easing another's burden, bringing joy to someone else, etc, and that through their peace and joy we gain it to and over time that peace and joy we gain for ourselves and others becomes our motivating force and cause for action. That is the godly reward. 

I think too often we look at "rewards" as a type of selfish pay for doing a deed. But, this is not how God uses "rewards". We must change our minds to to look at rewards as the effects of actions and how those affect us. It's about seeing the whole picture. Take tithing for example- one could mindlessly pay thinking of no reward. The bigger picture though is recognizing that tithing going to help the poor and hungry, that easing another's burden monetarily is a great feeling of peace and that in that process of understanding we gain the reward of that peace and knowledge. 

Instead of playing transparent word games, the practical and efficacious thing to do is admit you were wrong and express gratitude for the learning experience.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Instead of playing transparent word games, the practical and efficacious thing to do is admit you were wrong and express gratitude for the learning experience.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Forget it, just forget it. Not even worth my time.

[Rob Osborn]

For those following, one can clearly see my case has been the same since my very first post. Please look past those infantile posters who can't understand simple concepts and attack others because they lack understanding themselves, they genuinely mean no harm, they are just insincere and we love them anyway.

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think your progression of thinking is getting more clear. Im curious what you think the "three" kinds of laws are? You see, in my understanding theres just one set of laws but within that set there are degrees or steps of the law.

First off there may be more than 3 kinds of laws.  Never-the-less, I think you are correct in you understanding that all laws come from G-d - who is a Celestial being.  Even outer darkness is governed by laws defined and ordained by G-d and sustained by his Celestial glory.  It seems to me that the laws defined for spirits is a different set than those that govern mortal things.  So also laws that govern resurrected beings is even different than that which govern spirit only.  Thus, that which is celestial is the complete set which encompasses all.  But there are subsets of laws that govern that which is not celestial.  Similar to the priesthood.  The Aaronic and Levitical Priesthoods are both Melchizedek – but I am also convinced that the Melchizedek is a subset of an even greater Priesthood. 

Anciently Israel was governed by the Law of Moses but in Hebrews Paul testifies that because the law was changed – so was the priesthood.  In essence the Law of Moses was changed to the Law of Christ.  We can say that the Law of Moses was a preparatory law for the Law of Christ.  But because of Agency and because G-d is so connected to preserving Agency – no one is forced to progress as the Law progresses.  And so we all abide the law we are willing to accept. 

With each set or level of Law there are covenants, commandments and ordinances.  One principle that you rely greatly upon is that whatever level of Law we receive that its only purpose is to prepare for the next level.  I am not certain that is a correct principle.  It appears to me that there is a probation time during which we can prepare for the next.  Those that do not prepare during the probation time are stopped from progressing to the next.   The ancient terms that are translated into our modern term of damned actually means “stopped” – meaning the progressing to greater Law can no longer take place.

In scripture we are warned that once a probation time has ended there will not (or cannot?) be a progression to greater Law which is the same as receiving (by ordination) a higher Priesthood.  I would add that those not ordained to the Melchizedek even though they were ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood – will retain their priesthood and are not excommunicated – even if they become inactive but will never be able to perform the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood.  And because the Priesthood is eternal will retain for eternity the priesthood they have received – (unless it is taken from them).  I am unaware of any revelation or doctrine that indicates loss of priesthood.  One may quote 121st section of the D&C.  But that deals with those that are unworthy of their Priesthood and not those that do not receive a higher priesthood.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:07 AM, Traveler said:

First off there may be more than 3 kinds of laws.  Never-the-less, I think you are correct in you understanding that all laws come from G-d - who is a Celestial being.  Even outer darkness is governed by laws defined and ordained by G-d and sustained by his Celestial glory.  It seems to me that the laws defined for spirits is a different set than those that govern mortal things.  So also laws that govern resurrected beings is even different than that which govern spirit only.  Thus, that which is celestial is the complete set which encompasses all.  But there are subsets of laws that govern that which is not celestial.  Similar to the priesthood.  The Aaronic and Levitical Priesthoods are both Melchizedek – but I am also convinced that the Melchizedek is a subset of an even greater Priesthood. 

Anciently Israel was governed by the Law of Moses but in Hebrews Paul testifies that because the law was changed – so was the priesthood.  In essence the Law of Moses was changed to the Law of Christ.  We can say that the Law of Moses was a preparatory law for the Law of Christ.  But because of Agency and because G-d is so connected to preserving Agency – no one is forced to progress as the Law progresses.  And so we all abide the law we are willing to accept. 

With each set or level of Law there are covenants, commandments and ordinances.  One principle that you rely greatly upon is that whatever level of Law we receive that its only purpose is to prepare for the next level.  I am not certain that is a correct principle.  It appears to me that there is a probation time during which we can prepare for the next.  Those that do not prepare during the probation time are stopped from progressing to the next.   The ancient terms that are translated into our modern term of damned actually means “stopped” – meaning the progressing to greater Law can no longer take place.

In scripture we are warned that once a probation time has ended there will not (or cannot?) be a progression to greater Law which is the same as receiving (by ordination) a higher Priesthood.  I would add that those not ordained to the Melchizedek even though they were ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood – will retain their priesthood and are not excommunicated – even if they become inactive but will never be able to perform the ordinances of the Melchizedek Priesthood.  And because the Priesthood is eternal will retain for eternity the priesthood they have received – (unless it is taken from them).  I am unaware of any revelation or doctrine that indicates loss of priesthood.  One may quote 121st section of the D&C.  But that deals with those that are unworthy of their Priesthood and not those that do not receive a higher priesthood.

 

The Traveler

Well, the gospel of Christ, which is repentance and baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost, is the "preparatory" gospel.