Third Hour

President Oaks Receives Criticism After Suggesting “Research is not the answer”

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8 minutes ago, mirkwood said:
Quote

I don't believe that equates to believing them to be "perfect" or flawless. And I think that idea (that some members think the Q12 and FP are flawless) is a lie generated by antis. No one I have ever met...EVER...thinks that. Well...maybe a few 7-year-olds.

I know adult members who act this way.

It's not that I disbelieve you, mirk. I don't disbelieve you. But I have seen dozens of instances where adults who say or write something in defense of an apostle or who reinforce the importance of inconvenient obedience are immediately tagged as prophet-worshipers. I assume there are some adults in the Church who truly do not understand that even apostles are just men ("just" in both senses), but I don't think I know any of them. Pretty much everyone I'm familiar with knows that apostles (and all other Priesthood leaders) are men and not God, that sometimes their opinions might be incorrect, and that they might even implement less-than-optimal policies, or implement them in a ham-fisted way. Most faithful Saints acknowledge this, but maintain that we sustain our leaders anyway.

In any case, little of this applies to President Oaks. When people are offended by what Elder Oaks teaches, the problem lies 100% with those taking offense. Even Jesus offended people with his teachings, and I dearly hope no Saint would suggest that Jesus simply was not empathetic enough or sufficiently careful in his choice of words.

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18 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I have seen many members equate them and their presence, or sightings, as you see the world react to Hollywood actors/actresses.

Yep. I'm pretty sure I'd be more excited about running into Pres. Nelson than I would be...insert favorite celeb here. Much more.

18 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

That is a problem.

Why?

19 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Fawning over them is a problem.

Why?

I can understand it not being to your taste or rolling your eyes at it a bit or the like. But declaring it "a problem"? Why?

19 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I know adult members who act this way.

I'd bet you a dollar that every one of those adults, in discussion, would clearly express their understanding to be otherwise.

Of course there's no way to prove this. But that's my view on it. ;)

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe the "very bad" view that some seem to have stems from the fact that so many simply don't understand what faith actually is.

This. The world, particularly atheists have dumbed down faith to mean, "Having no good reason to believe, but you believe it anyway." What I am surprised though is how active LDS and Christians have promulgated this false definition of faith also.

Atheist, generally speaking, have made "faith" look like a really bad term that only ignorant, unstudied, unintelligent, irrational, and illogical people have. This to me is one of Satan's greatest successes. I won't tell people not to have faith, but I will change the definition such that people will think its dumb to have faith.

When I read the quote from Elder Oaks, it was spot on. I found early on in my mission that researching all of the affects of items in the Word of Wisdom didn't help anyone change their behavior. What I did discover is that teaching principles of faith with the Word of Wisdom had more of an affect on the mind then teaching them all the bad that could happen because they drink, smoke, etc...

 

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I actually attended this meeting, it was in my stake. The article explained the context pretty well. I'd emphasise that this was a Q&A meeting for young married couples, where a specific question was asked in regards to keeping marriages together. It was a great meeting, I enjoyed it.

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yep. I'm pretty sure I'd be more excited about running into Pres. Nelson than I would be...insert favorite celeb here. Much more.

Why?

Why?

I can understand it not being to your taste or rolling your eyes at it a bit or the like. But declaring it "a problem"? Why?

I'd bet you a dollar that every one of those adults, in discussion, would clearly express their understanding to be otherwise.

Of course there's no way to prove this. But that's my view on it. ;)

If you don't get it from what I already said, I can't explain it better.

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1 hour ago, mirkwood said:

If you don't get it from what I already said, I can't explain it better.

How can I possibly "get it" when you didn't bother to actually explain the why of it?

You said hero-worship was problematic. I asked why. You replied saying because treating them like celebrities (hero-worship) is a problem. That's a fine job of clarifying what you meant by "hero-worship". But as to the why it's a problem...????

That's literally (and even @Vort can't really claim I'm using it wrong here) begging the question (note for all you using this term wrong...this is how you use it. ;))

As to the literal reality of treating the church leaders like celebrities, all things are relative:

 

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Guest MormonGator

Guess what? @Heather did exactly what she set out to do. She got everyone talking. Which is what any writer wants. 

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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Guess what? @Heather did exactly what she set out to do. She got everyone talking. Which is what any writer wants. 

So does the Westboro Baptist Church.  

Edited by Grunt

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

So . . . Merger, then?

I think we need a WBC wing in our church. Think of the great PR! @Grunt, you gave me a great idea. Thank you! 

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54 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:
56 minutes ago, Grunt said:

So doesn't the Westboro Baptist Church.  

So . . . Merger, then?

Oy - I might side with Michael Moore on that one.  I have zero good things to say about Michael Moore except this - he protested a WBC protest once.  

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11 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oy - I might side with Michael Moore on that one.  I have zero good things to say about Michael Moore except this - he protested a WBC protest once.  

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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3 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Assuming you were born before the 21st century, when many people can't even read a clock if it is not digital.

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On 2/8/2019 at 1:21 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Yep. I'm pretty sure I'd be more excited about running into Pres. Nelson than I would be...insert favorite celeb here. Much more.

Why?

Why?

I can understand it not being to your taste or rolling your eyes at it a bit or the like. But declaring it "a problem"? Why?

I'd bet you a dollar that every one of those adults, in discussion, would clearly express their understanding to be otherwise.

Of course there's no way to prove this. But that's my view on it. ;)

I can understand being excited to see one of the Apostles. But, I admit it bothers me a bit when Elder Uchtdorf comes into view and the women standing in line to go into the conference center get a little crazy. It’s like they suddenly turn into 13 year olds swooning over  a young Donny Osmond. Yes, Elder Uchtdorf is a handsome man, but I don’t think it’s becoming of adult women to act like teenagers over him. I Don’t know if that is a “problem” or not. 

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43 minutes ago, classylady said:

I can understand being excited to see one of the Apostles. But, I admit it bothers me a bit when Elder Uchtdorf comes into view and the women standing in line to go into the conference center get a little crazy. It’s like they suddenly turn into 13 year olds swooning over  a young Donny Osmond. Yes, Elder Uchtdorf is a handsome man, but I don’t think it’s becoming of adult women to act like teenagers over him. I Don’t know if that is a “problem” or not. 

I know what you mean @classylady. Do you think/hope part of it is just the excitement we all get when meeting someone who we've seen on television and who we view as a celebrity?

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I know what you mean @classylady. Do you think/hope part of it is just the excitement we all get when meeting someone who we've seen on television and who we view as a celebrity?

I’m not sure what it is. But, these women don’t get overly excited when one of the other Apostles come into view. Just seems to be Uchtdorf.

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