Nature of bodies of translated beings


Edspringer
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Hi, folks

I’m studying about translated beings and I came across 3 Nephi 28, in which we read about the three nephites and their desire to stay on Earth to keep doing the work of the Lord until His return. We know that these three men, along with John the Beloved, and Alma the younger and others had their bodies changed in such a way that they could live on Earth and not die, neither suffer physical pain or any kind of disease.  The only thing they would suffer was sorrow for the sins of the world.

My concern is this:

a)      translated beings are mortals, immortals or amortals ?

b)      is there blood running in their veins ? If so, what would justify that?

c)       translated beings are in a terrestrial order. What does it imply to  their condition ?

You’re most welcome to share your thoughts and help me in my personal studies!

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Depends on what you mean by translated.

With the 3 Nephites and John the Revelator

a) Mortal in that they will at some time die or at least change from their present state so that they can receive their glorified reward

b) I do not know all things...thus I have no idea at this point.

c) That they have a higher order of understanding and ability while here on this earth, but not as great as that of one who has received a higher glorified state.

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49 minutes ago, Edspringer said:

Hi, folks

I’m studying about translated beings and I came across 3 Nephi 28, in which we read about the three nephites and their desire to stay on Earth to keep doing the work of the Lord until His return. We know that these three men, along with John the Beloved, and Alma the younger and others had their bodies changed in such a way that they could live on Earth and not die, neither suffer physical pain or any kind of disease.  The only thing they would suffer was sorrow for the sins of the world.

My concern is this:

a)      translated beings are mortals, immortals or amortals ?

b)      is there blood running in their veins ? If so, what would justify that?

c)       translated beings are in a terrestrial order. What does it imply to  their condition ?

You’re most welcome to share your thoughts and help me in my personal studies!

A) Translated beings are mortals, immortals or amortals ?

As pertaining to earth life they are immortal in the sense that they do not age like you and I and do not die due from some physical ailment. They will taste death similar to those in the millennium.  If I understand 'amortal" they then are both amortal and immortal.

B) Is there blood running in their veins ? If so, what would justify that?

Unknown. I would say blood, as they have not been resurrected with a body of flesh and bone. That would be my theory and understanding thus far.

C) Translated beings are in a terrestrial order. What does it imply to their condition ?

Can you further define what you are meaning by terrestrial order, and condition?

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

A) Translated beings are mortals, immortals or amortals ?

As pertaining to earth life they are immortal in the sense that they do not age like you and I and do not die due from some physical ailment. They will taste death similar to those in the millennium.  If I understand 'amortal" they then are both amortal and immortal.

B) Is there blood running in their veins ? If so, what would justify that?

Unknown. I would say blood, as they have not been resurrected with a body of flesh and bone. That would be my theory and understanding thus far.

C) Translated beings are in a terrestrial order. What does it imply to their condition ?

Can you further define what you are meaning by terrestrial order, and condition?

Well, when I used the terms "immortal" and "amortal", I was intending to distinguish a person who died and resurrected (immortal) and a person who would eventually die (amortal), that is, a person to which death would have no effect for a time. 

Now, addressing the terrestrial order issue: as far as I am concerned, translated beings are of a terrestrial order, so their physical condition might differ a lot from ours, I suppose. I mean, terrestrial bodies are in a higher level than the telestial ones (of course), so it is reasonable to think that the three nephites and John the Beloved are in a higher condition of existance, or in a terrestrial order. If they had died and resurrected, they would have entered in a much higher condition, which is the celestial glory, and I suppose they wouldn`t be able to carry out the work they so desired to do. 

I`m glad to get more comments on that. 

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2 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Well, when I used the terms "immortal" and "amortal", I was intending to distinguish a person who died and resurrected (immortal) and a person who would eventually die (amortal), that is, a person to which death would have no effect for a time. 

According to this response and further clarification, I would say "amortal" then.

2 hours ago, Edspringer said:

Now, addressing the terrestrial order issue: as far as I am concerned, translated beings are of a terrestrial order, so their physical condition might differ a lot from ours, I suppose. I mean, terrestrial bodies are in a higher level than the telestial ones (of course), so it is reasonable to think that the three nephites and John the Beloved are in a higher condition of existance, or in a terrestrial order. If they had died and resurrected, they would have entered in a much higher condition, which is the celestial glory, and I suppose they wouldn`t be able to carry out the work they so desired to do. 

I`m glad to get more comments on that. 

We are in agreement then.

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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

As a side note. They are never called that in the scriptures. There is no evidence that they were all Nephites, or Nephites at all. They may have all been Lamanites for all we know.

Remember, "Nephite" was a general term used for anyone that followed Jesus Christ, and Lamanites were used as a term of those who did not, as in evidence after the 4th generation we once again read about Lamanites.

Nephites covered - Jacobites, Zoramites, Ishmaelites (who followed Nephi). So, in light of this, three Nephites is a correct statement, but in scripture they are referred to as disciples -- three disciples.

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6 hours ago, Edspringer said:

a)      translated beings are mortals, immortals or amortals ?

b)      is there blood running in their veins ? If so, what would justify that?

c)       translated beings are in a terrestrial order. What does it imply to  their condition ?

You’re most welcome to share your thoughts and help me in my personal studies!

I looked for, but could not find any doctrine answering these questions (other than perhaps the first one).  I don't think there is any official doctrine in our Church that pertains to these questions at this time.  This might not be the answer you wanted to hear, but since there is apparently nothing that is in print, even in Church sources, it would be hard to answer any of the questions using other source other than a wild guess.  

As for the first one, a dictionary definition of immortal is as follows:

Quote

 

im·mor·tal

/i(m)ˈmôrdl/
adjective
 
living forever; never dying or decaying.

 

 
 
Based on the dictionary definition, if they die (even as they do in the millennium), they would not be immortal.  
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33 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Remember, "Nephite" was a general term used for anyone that followed Jesus Christ, and Lamanites were used as a term of those who did not, as in evidence after the 4th generation we once again read about Lamanites.

Nephites covered - Jacobites, Zoramites, Ishmaelites (who followed Nephi). So, in light of this, three Nephites is a correct statement, but in scripture they are referred to as disciples -- three disciples.

My point is we should call them what they were called in the scripture.

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8 hours ago, Scott said:

I looked for, but could not find any doctrine answering these questions (other than perhaps the first one).  I don't think there is any official doctrine in our Church that pertains to these questions at this time.  This might not be the answer you wanted to hear, but since there is apparently nothing that is in print, even in Church sources, it would be hard to answer any of the questions using other source other than a wild guess.  

As for the first one, a dictionary definition of immortal is as follows:

 
 
Based on the dictionary definition, if they die (even as they do in the millennium), they would not be immortal.  

I really enjoyed your comments. Actually, I know finding answers to such questions are quite hard (or even impossible). But I think that the thing is search, knock, ask. I love the perspective the restored gospel gives to each of us in terms of knowledge acquisition. And I really enjoy interacting with you guys! Thanx.

Anyhow, there are mysteries out there, waiting to be known. I believe that what we are doing is the basis for such acquisition. Of course, it depends more on God to reveal His mysteries to us than finding the answers through our efforts alone. But Mormon had the same doubts and he, after searching,  asked and an answer was provided. Isn`t it amazing?

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In the Q & A section of the November 2017 Ensign: Are John the Beloved and the Three Nephites Actually Still on the Earth? If So, What Are They Doing?

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2017/11/to-the-point/are-john-the-beloved-and-the-three-nephites-actually-still-on-the-earth-if-so-what-are-they-doing?lang=eng&_r=1

The first paragraph states ~  "Yes, the Savior granted to John the Beloved and the Three Nephites their desire to tarry on the earth. What they’re doing is bringing souls unto the Lord until He comes again (see D&C 7:2; 3 Nephi 28:9).[the second scripture is  And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

The second paragraph states ~ "The Savior told John that he would “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people” and become “as flaming fire and a ministering angel [and] minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (D&C 7:3, 6; see also John 21:20–23). Mormon said that the Three Nephites would be among the Gentiles and Jews, who would “know them not” (3 Nephi 28:27–28)."

Let's read what Mormon said in the last scripture, I am going to the verses before 27 and a few after to give a better understanding of what Mormon said.

At the heading of 3 Nephi 28: Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21 And thrice they were cast into a furnace and received no harm.

22 And twice were they cast into a den of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

 

Personally, to me, it doesn't matter whether they have blood in their veins or speculating on the definition of translated beings - according to lds dot org 

Translated Beings: Persons who are changed so that they do not experience pain or death until their resurrection to immortality, is good enough for me. As for what order ~ There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments.

Thus, those who are transfigured would to me be inheriting the celestial kingdom.

 

 

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3 Ne 28  Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

I think this is the key.  Mormon and Moroni know the change.  We don’t, ... yet.

Hopefully we will get some new scripture during our lifetime.  

Don’t tell my wife and kids, but I’m looking foreward to passing over into paradise.  We will have all the scriptures ever written, with actual commentary from the original author! 

I need to make a reading list:

1) Book of Remembrance

2) Sealed 2/3 portion of the BoM 

3) Isaiah

 

Edited by mikbone
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14 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Remember, "Nephite" was a general term used for anyone that followed Jesus Christ, and Lamanites were used as a term of those who did not, as in evidence after the 4th generation we once again read about Lamanites.

Nephites covered - Jacobites, Zoramites, Ishmaelites (who followed Nephi). So, in light of this, three Nephites is a correct statement, but in scripture they are referred to as disciples -- three disciples.

Correct. Here is what is written in 4 Nephi 1:36-37

36 And it came to pass that in this year there arose a people who were called the Nephites, and they were true believers in Christ; and among them there were those who were called by the Lamanites—Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites;

37 Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites.

Referring to  them as the "Three Nephites" has become common within the church  in the latter days  This makes perfect sense as a means for distinguishing the three disciples who made up the First Presidency within the New Testament from the three disciples within the Book of Mormon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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15 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

My point is we should call them what they were called in the scripture.

 

14 hours ago, SilentOne said:

Why?

That is my question as well. I mean, if a number of church leaders and church material have long been calling them the  "Three Nephites," (see HERE) I don't see why we shouldn't as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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5 hours ago, wenglund said:

 

That is my question as well. I mean, if a number of church leaders and church material have long been calling them the  "Three Nephites," (see HERE) I don't see why we shouldn't as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I guess I just feel like we should use correct descriptions rather than following an incorrect tradition. Also, we can just ask them if we ever meet them.

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4 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I guess I just feel like we should use correct descriptions rather than following an incorrect tradition. Also, we can just ask them if we ever meet them.

Seem more than a little nit-picky to me. I mean, we aren't talking about a formal name or title, but a descriptor.  If the Church finds it appropriate, I am not sure why you wouldn't. But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On 2/7/2019 at 6:49 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I guess I just feel like we should use correct descriptions rather than following an incorrect tradition. Also, we can just ask them if we ever meet them.

I actually agree with the desire to use correct descriptions, but according to the verses wenglund quoted, it doesn't seem to be incorrect.

On 2/7/2019 at 12:44 PM, wenglund said:

36 And it came to pass that in this year there arose a people who were called the Nephites, and they were true believers in Christ; and among them there were those who were called by the Lamanites—Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites;

37 Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites.

2
1

 

Edited by SilentOne
fixed bolding
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  • 1 year later...

Hey Edspringer!

I know this is a post from last year but I do have some answers to your questions so I felt like I should share :) 

 

A) Are translates brings mortal or amoral?

Answer: They are Mortal until they are “twinkled” which is the instantaneous death to resurrection talked about in D&C, then they are made Immortal. See below

 "He that liveth when the Lord shall come, and hath kept the faith, blessed is he; nevertheless, it is appointed to him to die at the age of man. Wherefore, children shall grow up until they become old; old men shall die; but they shall not sleep in the dust, but they shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye" (D&C 63:50-51). (Bruce R. McConkie) “Thus, this change from mortality to immortality, though almost instantaneous, is both a death and a resurrection. Thus, translated beings do not suffer death as we normally define it, meaning the separation of body and spirit; nor do they receive a resurrection as we ordinarily describe it, meaning that the body rises from the dust and the spirit enters again into its fleshly home. But they do pass through death and are changed from mortality to immortality, in the eternal sense, and they thus both die and are resurrected in the eternal sense.”

 

B) Do they have blood running through their veins? 

Answer: No, see explanation below. 

 “Bruce R. McConkie

Some mortals have been translated. In this state they are not subject to sorrow or to disease or to death. No longer does blood (the life-giving element of our present mortality) flow in their veins. Procreation ceases. If they then had children, their offspring would be denied a mortal probation, which all worthy spirits must receive in due course. They have power to move and live in both a mortal and an unseen sphere. All translated beings undergo another change in their bodies when they gain full immortality. This change is the equivalent of a resurrection. All mortals, after death, are also resurrected. In the resurrected state they are immortal and eternal in nature, and those among them who are privileged to live in the family unit have spirit children. Millennial man will live in a state akin to translation. His body will be changed so that it is no longer subject to disease or death as we know it, although he will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to full immortality when he is a hundred years of age. He will, however, have children, and mortal life of a millennial kind will continue. (The Millennial Messiah, p. 644) TLDP:699-70

 

C) Being a terrestrial being what does that mean in regards to their physical state of being? 

Answer: Their bodies are transformed in such a way that they no longer suffer physical pain or disease. They can be both in this physical realm or the spiritual realm like unto the Savior when he disappears form the mob. We already know that blood no longer flows through their veins, instead it’s spiritual fluid. These questions can be answered here: http://www.angelfire.com/super2/halcomb4/translatedbeings.htm along with many more :) with quotes from prophets and apostles along with scripture references. 

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15 hours ago, CelesteLandon said:

Bruce R. McConkie

Some mortals have been translated. In this state they are not subject to sorrow or to disease or to death. No longer does blood (the life-giving element of our present mortality) flow in their veins. Procreation ceases. If they then had children, their offspring would be denied a mortal probation, which all worthy spirits must receive in due course. They have power to move and live in both a mortal and an unseen sphere. All translated beings undergo another change in their bodies when they gain full immortality. This change is the equivalent of a resurrection. All mortals, after death, are also resurrected. In the resurrected state they are immortal and eternal in nature, and those among them who are privileged to live in the family unit have spirit children. Millennial man will live in a state akin to translation. His body will be changed so that it is no longer subject to disease or death as we know it, although he will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to full immortality when he is a hundred years of age. He will, however, have children, and mortal life of a millennial kind will continue. (The Millennial Messiah, p. 644) TLDP:699-70

Where did McConkie get this information? Unless supported by scripture or revelation this is simply his personal opinion. I really like Bruce R. McConkie, but he has been wrong in the past. An example is his book Mormon Doctrine where he calls the Catholic Church the Church of the Devil. This was later removed because the other members of the Twelve corrected him.

Edited by Emmanuel Goldstein
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1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Where did McConkie get this information? Unless supported by scripture or revelation this is simply his personal opinion. I really like Bruce R. McConkie, but he has been wrong in the past. An example is his book Mormon Doctrine where he calls the Catholic Church the Church of the Devil. This was later removed because the other members of the Twelve corrected him.

Anything that is not official doctrine can be justly ascribed as opinion. That doesn't make it untrue just not officially recognized as true doctrine. In this instance I would say he was just connecting the dots and drawing a conclusion based on things we do know. Does this leave room for error? Of course but we shouldn't just reject it offhand. I would rather have an Apostle's opinion on a matter to mull over than no comment at all. I think it's part of the process where we learn to receive revelation for ourselves.

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3 minutes ago, laronius said:

Anything that is not official doctrine can be justly ascribed as opinion. That doesn't make it untrue just not officially recognized as true doctrine. In this instance I would say he was just connecting the dots and drawing a conclusion based on things we do know. Does this leave room for error? Of course but we shouldn't just reject it offhand. I would rather have an Apostle's opinion on a matter to mull over than no comment at all. I think it's part of the process where we learn to receive revelation for ourselves.

I suppose he knows for sure now. ;)

 

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