Need help re. Plan of salvation


Aaddaamm
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9 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

How do you interpret the weeping, wailing and nashing teeth then.

I believe it to be symbolic of the bitter hatred that some will have for the righteous saints - not so much of anything to do with personal inward introspection.  

 

The Traveler

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9 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I dont think we have to prove it to him, I think we must prove it to ourselves 

One of my "jobs" as an engineer is to test my designs to make sure the products are ready for customer use.  I set up trials and test to be as difficult and impossible to succeed as possible within the design parameters - not to grade but to determine what adjustments still need to take place before my designs are complete and ready.  I am of the mind that through trials our weaknesses can be made strengths - not instruments or excuses for our damnation.  Failure is not succumbing to temptations but rather not learning, repenting and moving on to completing our intended conclusion.

So I am of the mind that many very smart spirits of our Father in heaven planned to push the envelope in mortality to insure their weaknesses are overcome and made strengths at the final judgment. 

 

The Traveler

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8 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

Hmm, I am of the opinion that we didnt know it all from the start. I believe we knew it would be hard, and we knew  about the situations we would be born into. But I do not think that we could comprehend it, having lacked experiencing it. I dont think we could plan our lives, i think we lacked the power to do so. I believe we chose certain aspects of our situation, such as family. I do not think we chose when or where we would be born, i think that's up to God and his wisdom. I for one, would certainly rather an all knowing God choose my plan and pathway over my own feeble premortal intellect.

I believe we knew a lot more than we may think - and so this is the reason for the veil of forgetfulness.   I am of the mind that if we knew how things would turn out - that the trial would not be enough to ensure the necessary depth of experience to produce the desired results but would only be superficial.   I experienced in college that when I knew the subject enough for the "A" grade - that I would not make any effort to learn according to my ability but rather to rely on what I already knew - skip class and go skiing.

 

The Traveler

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11 hours ago, Traveler said:

Interesting - I am of the notion that not only did we know - we planned it.  It is the only way I can justify and understand agency.  It would also explain some things about Satan that when he realized how bad some plans were - he argued that we cannot allow such to happen.  But I am open to ideas.  Just that it is hard for me and what I understand of G-d and Christ that we would be sent into this mortal life ignorantly.  Some would say - why would I make such a plan for myself - or why would anyone make a bad plan for themself.  But I would ask - if someone's life plan is so far from what they would choose - why do you believe G-d (what about G-d do you believe that) would force them onto it without them having any say?

The Traveler 

That is definitely an interesting theory. I am just not sure I agree with us planning our lives for reasons provided in my response below.

Interesting - I am of the notion that not only did we know - we planned it.

This appears to be a doctrine of predestination, not the doctrine of foreordination. Let me see if I can clarify what I am understanding from this theory.

A) I planned my mortal life and experience
B) At birth all my memories of my pre-mortal life are veiled
C) Despite this veil, and growth of grace by grace, I am able to fully live and choose to live according to my pre-mortal plan

How does your theory incorporate our choices that completely line up with our pre-mortal plan, without having any knowledge of that plan and the choices we made? It appears to me, under this theory, I have no agency because I am only thinking I am following my own path, when in reality these decisions were already made in my pre-mortal life. I have no agency in this life, I am predestined to follow a course already laid out for me. I married Ms. Anddenex because I made this decision in my pre-mortal life. How does this incorporate that there are more than one fish in the sea idea. I understand there are some who believe in soul mates, despite this concept being torn down by prophets. The planning on this would be incredible because my plan would have to include all the decisions my parents made before I was born, and the decisions they would make while I was born.

I am more inclined to believe #2 for the following verses gives me an idea of our instruction before receiving a body of flesh and blood:

Quote

And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever. (emphasis mine)

We all were instructed sufficiently regarding the life we would experience.

It would also explain some things about Satan that when he realized how bad some plans were - he argued that we cannot allow such to happen.

I am not sure. As a brother to siblings and if my siblings decided to mark their own path -- as they are now -- I realize that is their path, and they chose it. I wouldn't interfere or change anything, because I knew they chose this themselves -- they planned it this way.

I would more likely want to interfere if I knew they wanted to be saved, but due to their choices in mortal existence they chose a path opposite to the plan of happiness. If a person's life is fully planned, what they desired, I wouldn't interfere or change their plan. They chose it from the beginning.

If also, as @Aaddaamm mentioned, why would there be weeping and gnashing of teeth if they planned this outcome from the beginning? If we were informed that we could earn 1 million dollars if we followed a specific plan, but then you make a plan to earn $500,000 dollars, would you weep at not making $1 million when you planned not to go for that anyway? I would rejoice, but we know people will be weeping and wailing.

I assume people could weep and wail if they assumed God would still give them $1 million although they planned a life of $500,000. I don't think so though.

But I would ask - if someone's life plan is so far from what they would choose - why do you believe G-d (what about G-d do you believe that) would force them onto it without them having any say?

I don't believe God has forced anyone in this life to be born into this life. I also don't believe, as nothing appears to support this in scripture, that we planned out what we would experience. I find it interesting that in some PB a person is told they chose the parents they have, while others are told God chose their parents.

I am more inclined to believe that we were instructed sufficiently according to the life we would live -- general -- and potential dangers we would face. There maybe some outcomes God forewarned some of his children that if they didn't go with whom he chose they would experience certain things in life. This isn't something planned, but once again, foreordination and God's ability to see the end from the beginning.

I can see God telling me, in general terms, through a blessing or personal one-on-one that I would experience some hardships. Much like when the children of Israel chose a king. God forewarned them what would result if they chose a king. They chose to go with a king anyway. This seems more likely what happened in our pre-mortal life, rather than planned life.

That is according to how I understand the gospel of Jesus Christ currently. I accept I could be wrong, and upon receiving further light and knowledge I may change my view.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

That is definitely an interesting theory. I am just not sure I agree with us planning our lives for reasons provided in my response below.

Interesting - I am of the notion that not only did we know - we planned it.

This appears to be a doctrine of predestination, not the doctrine of foreordination. Let me see if I can clarify what I am understanding from this theory.

A) I planned my mortal life and experience
B) At birth all my memories of my pre-mortal life are veiled
C) Despite this veil, and growth of grace by grace, I am able to fully live and choose to live according to my pre-mortal plan

How does your theory incorporate our choices that completely line up with our pre-mortal plan, without having any knowledge of that plan and the choices we made? It appears to me, under this theory, I have no agency because I am only thinking I am following my own path, when in reality these decisions were already made in my pre-mortal life. I have no agency in this life, I am predestined to follow a course already laid out for me. I married Ms. Anddenex because I made this decision in my pre-mortal life. How does this incorporate that there are more than one fish in the sea idea. I understand there are some who believe in soul mates, despite this concept being torn down by prophets. The planning on this would be incredible because my plan would have to include all the decisions my parents made before I was born, and the decisions they would make while I was born.

I am more inclined to believe #2 for the following verses gives me an idea of our instruction before receiving a body of flesh and blood:

We all were instructed sufficiently regarding the life we would experience.

It would also explain some things about Satan that when he realized how bad some plans were - he argued that we cannot allow such to happen.

I am not sure. As a brother to siblings and if my siblings decided to mark their own path -- as they are now -- I realize that is their path, and they chose it. I wouldn't interfere or change anything, because I knew they chose this themselves -- they planned it this way.

I would more likely want to interfere if I knew they wanted to be saved, but due to their choices in mortal existence they chose a path opposite to the plan of happiness. If a person's life is fully planned, what they desired, I wouldn't interfere or change their plan. They chose it from the beginning.

If also, as @Aaddaamm mentioned, why would there be weeping and gnashing of teeth if they planned this outcome from the beginning? If we were informed that we could earn 1 million dollars if we followed a specific plan, but then you make a plan to earn $500,000 dollars, would you weep at not making $1 million when you planned not to go for that anyway? I would rejoice, but we know people will be weeping and wailing.

I assume people could weep and wail if they assumed God would still give them $1 million although they planned a life of $500,000. I don't think so though.

But I would ask - if someone's life plan is so far from what they would choose - why do you believe G-d (what about G-d do you believe that) would force them onto it without them having any say?

I don't believe God has forced anyone in this life to be born into this life. I also don't believe, as nothing appears to support this in scripture, that we planned out what we would experience. I find it interesting that in some PB a person is told they chose the parents they have, while others are told God chose their parents.

I am more inclined to believe that we were instructed sufficiently according to the life we would live -- general -- and potential dangers we would face. There maybe some outcomes God forewarned some of his children that if they didn't go with whom he chose they would experience certain things in life. This isn't something planned, but once again, foreordination and God's ability to see the end from the beginning.

I can see God telling me, in general terms, through a blessing or personal one-on-one that I would experience some hardships. Much like when the children of Israel chose a king. God forewarned them what would result if they chose a king. They chose to go with a king anyway. This seems more likely what happened in our pre-mortal life, rather than planned life.

That is according to how I understand the gospel of Jesus Christ currently. I accept I could be wrong, and upon receiving further light and knowledge I may change my view.

 

 

I have a problem with the idea of what I call game show choices.  Say we are given three doors hidding what is behind them.  How can we say we made a choice of agency when we do not know what we are getting out of our choice.  I just cannot understand not knowing what we are doing as a choice. 

The next problem is that I cannot reconcile why the circumstances of life can be so different and still just and not a matter of agency and choice.  I just do not believe G-d forces anyone into any circumstance and yet agency is still preserved?   If we did not plan our life - I do not see why G-d would keep secret to himself what our choices would cause.  I believe we knew and that is why we come into this life with our past forgotten.

Another problem happened when my first child was born.  I was flooded with the notion that he was meant to have my wife and I as his parents.  I cannot reconcile his agency unless I was involved with him and my now wife in the pre-existence.  In addition - I feel that part of G-d plan has to do with my ancestors as well as promised blessing concerning my seed (and others in scripture).  I just do not understand how all this can be promised by G-d to so many others.

Finely - It seems that so many things I did not understand earlier in my life have become so important later on - much more than what I thought I was choosing at the time I thought I was choosing them.  It seems to me that I do not have much at all beyond a fantasy and illusion that I have much control of anything - especially my own life during my mortal probation.   Even when I have sinned and gotten off course - it seems that there has been so much pushing me back into the right place for me to be.   I am working hard but I cannot brag about my accomplishments - it is like the path was set before me.  But I cannot speak for anyone else - only my own experience.

 

The Traveler

 

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17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I have a problem with the idea of what I call game show choices.  Say we are given three doors hidding what is behind them.  How can we say we made a choice of agency when we do not know what we are getting out of our choice.  I just cannot understand not knowing what we are doing as a choice. 

The next problem is that I cannot reconcile why the circumstances of life can be so different and still just and not a matter of agency and choice.  I just do not believe G-d forces anyone into any circumstance and yet agency is still preserved?   If we did not plan our life - I do not see why G-d would keep secret to himself what our choices would cause.  I believe we knew and that is why we come into this life with our past forgotten.

Another problem happened when my first child was born.  I was flooded with the notion that he was meant to have my wife and I as his parents.  I cannot reconcile his agency unless I was involved with him and my now wife in the pre-existence.  In addition - I feel that part of G-d plan has to do with my ancestors as well as promised blessing concerning my seed (and others in scripture).  I just do not understand how all this can be promised by G-d to so many others.

Finely - It seems that so many things I did not understand earlier in my life have become so important later on - much more than what I thought I was choosing at the time I thought I was choosing them.  It seems to me that I do not have much at all beyond a fantasy and illusion that I have much control of anything - especially my own life during my mortal probation.   Even when I have sinned and gotten off course - it seems that there has been so much pushing me back into the right place for me to be.   I am working hard but I cannot brag about my accomplishments - it is like the path was set before me.  But I cannot speak for anyone else - only my own experience.

 

The Traveler

 

Here is my #1 concern with how I am understanding what you have described as a "planned mortal life." We know that we are foreordained according to the foreknowledge of God. Here is the scenario:

1) God foreordains a son/daughter to a specific task (planned)

2) Son/daughter plans out that they will reject the foreordination from our pre-mortal life

3) God sends son/daughter with a foreordination that the two of them know the one already rejected from their plan.

Why would God foreordain someone, when in this life they reject that foreordination and that rejection was planned in our pre-mortal life. That doesn't appear to be very wise from an all knowing God. If all planned, how then does someone reject their foreordination in this life?

How is your thoughts different from predestination? If the path was set before you, and you could not choose either way (because that plan was set), how then do you have agency in this life?

What clarification can you provide according to how I am either misunderstanding your thoughts, or confirm I am understanding them?

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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Here is my #1 concern with how I am understanding what you have described as a "planned mortal life." We know that we are foreordained according to the foreknowledge of God. Here is the scenario:

1) God foreordains a son/daughter to a specific task (planned)

2) Son/daughter plans out that they will reject the foreordination from our pre-mortal life

3) God sends son/daughter with a foreordination that the two of them know the one already rejected from their plan.

Why would God foreordain someone, when in this life they reject that foreordination and that rejection was planned in our pre-mortal life. That doesn't appear to be very wise from an all knowing God. If all planned, how then does someone reject their foreordination in this life?

How is your thoughts different from predestination? If the path was set before you, and you could not choose either way (because that plan was set), how then do you have agency in this life?

What clarification can you provide according to how I am either misunderstanding your thoughts, or confirm I am understanding them?

I like to think of it as if I were being toilet trained. God sets up the toilet, the water, the flushing mechanisms and the toilet paper. All I have to do is choose whether I will do my business in his toilet or soil myself.

God made plans for the atonement, set it up and completed it. All the hard work is done, we have to choose to accept or reject it.

Many are foreordained, and we come to this life with that foreordination, yet few are chosen because they choose evil over good. God in his wisdom knew some of us would not live up to the calling. It would be wrong of God not to give us the opportunity to live up to it, even though he knows we would fail.

The world is so complex and intertwined, that the butterfly effect is nonsense. Say theres a banana on the floor, if you dont trip on it, somebody else will. If Hitler didnt rise to power, somebody else would have. If Jo smith didnt fulfill his mission, somebody else would.

I believe the only exception to this rule is Jesus Christ. If he didnt atone, nobody else could. Therefore, in Gods wisdom is was essential that christ have the most training and be the closest to Him before providing the atonement.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe it to be symbolic of the bitter hatred that some will have for the righteous saints - not so much of anything to do with personal inward introspection.  

 

The Traveler

How do you then interpret many people saying Lord Lord, have not we done many miracles and cast out devils in your name. And The Lord will say, depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I Never Knew You... this to me seems like a forced consignment into the appropriate state, and someone doesnt agree.

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5 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

I like to think of it as if I were being toilet trained. God sets up the toilet, the water, the flushing mechanisms and the toilet paper. All I have to do is choose whether I will do my business in his toilet or soil myself.

God made plans for the atonement, set it up and completed it. All the hard work is done, we have to choose to accept or reject it.

Many are foreordained, and we come to this life with that foreordination, yet few are chosen because they choose evil over good. God in his wisdom knew some of us would not live up to the calling. It would be wrong of God not to give us the opportunity to live up to it, even though he knows we would fail.

The world is so complex and intertwined, that the butterfly effect is nonsense. Say theres a banana on the floor, if you dont trip on it, somebody else will. If Hitler didnt rise to power, somebody else would have. If Jo smith didnt fulfill his mission, somebody else would.

I believe the only exception to this rule is Jesus Christ. If he didnt atone, nobody else could. Therefore, in Gods wisdom is was essential that christ have the most training and be the closest to Him before providing the atonement.

We find agreement.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

One of my "jobs" as an engineer is to test my designs to make sure the products are ready for customer use.  I set up trials and test to be as difficult and impossible to succeed as possible within the design parameters - not to grade but to determine what adjustments still need to take place before my designs are complete and ready.  I am of the mind that through trials our weaknesses can be made strengths - not instruments or excuses for our damnation.  Failure is not succumbing to temptations but rather not learning, repenting and moving on to completing our intended conclusion.

So I am of the mind that many very smart spirits of our Father in heaven planned to push the envelope in mortality to insure their weaknesses are overcome and made strengths at the final judgment. 

 

The Traveler

Your first part sounds great, in the perspective of the Father being the engineer. But I cannot see that we would have the knowledge or comprehension of what would need to take place to overcome our weaknesses as we lacked the mortal experience. I dont believe we were all knowing, or any smarter than perhaps Adam and Eve were in the garden.

People dont exactly know themselves. There are said to be 4 parts of a persons person. The blind self, the unconscious self, the hidden slef and the public self. We dont exactly know all 4 of these.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe we knew a lot more than we may think - and so this is the reason for the veil of forgetfulness.   I am of the mind that if we knew how things would turn out - that the trial would not be enough to ensure the necessary depth of experience to produce the desired results but would only be superficial.   I experienced in college that when I knew the subject enough for the "A" grade - that I would not make any effort to learn according to my ability but rather to rely on what I already knew - skip class and go skiing.

 

The Traveler

Although that is logical. I dont view that as our purpose, I see it as, if we knew God in this life, the test wouldn't be much of a test. We know how to choose under the conditions of eternal life and now we are here to choose under the conditions of spiritual death. Hence the veil. Not so much to do with the intellect we had. But more specifically to hide God from us.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

We all seem to forget that there is a millennium, a 1000 year period where we will work towards being perfected. In comparison, this life is just a blink. We shouldn't think this life is the big test.

 

Alma 34:32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 

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1 hour ago, Colirio said:

 

Alma 34:32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 

Yes, given before Christ and thus before the prison doors were opened for the work for the dead in the which labors of repentance and forgiveness of sins are enabled for the dead.

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On 2/8/2019 at 3:37 AM, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

Why are you assuming that "emotional cognitive pains" are non-physical?  The human brain is physical.  When someone underwent a frontal lobotomy (in the past since that isn't done anymore) and their personality changed, is that because the physical aspect of their being was disrupted or somehow the surgery cut into their spirit being?  I am pretty sure Elder Holland explained in a conference talk that emotional pains and challenges can be just as physical as any other disease.  Elder Holland, "However bewildering this all may be, these afflictions are some of the realities of mortal life, and there should be no more shame in acknowledging them than in acknowledging a battle with high blood pressure or the sudden appearance of a malignant tumor."   He says in that statement that these cognitive related afflictions are mortal things. 

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On 2/8/2019 at 11:37 AM, Aaddaamm said:

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

I don't think that my answer covers all of it or that it's a perfect answer, but here are some things that i've been pondering about concerning this topic:

1: We are not born spiritually equal. We have different levels of spirituality, and Jesus is the greatest of us, being equal with The Father. I can see how some people might have the right spirit like Alvin. It doesn't really matter in the end when we recieve the gospel in our lives as long as we become born again by water and fire.

2: This one is connected to the other since we know that all people who come unto Christ are not the worst people in history, so why are they recieving the gospel? One thing's for sure, an important reason is because that we still need the sacred ordinances  no matter who we are or how we are, or the heavenly gates are closed. Even Jesus set the example for us, and someone is supposed to do the work for themselves and their deceased (and it's not without blessings of course)

3: I think that an important part of life is to develop christ-like attributes, especially charity. I remember reading in one of the study materials that we don't want to experience a person recieving all of Fathers blessings who is not spiritually prepared. It would be a disaster. But like I said in point 1, some people (like babies) do not need as much earthly experience, propaply because they already possess the necessary parts

 

My third point reminds me of the fourth season of The Flash (SPOILER IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED IT). The way that Devoe developed to the thinker just creeped me out and made me wonder how it would be like to be omnipotent and omniscient but lacking our emotional register like empathy. Knowing all things but seeing everything with just cold analytical eyes is a reeeeeeally cocktail and is not much different from satan's plan

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4 hours ago, Colirio said:

 

Alma 34:32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 

As apostle Neal A Maxwell and other Church leaders have taught, the “day of this life,” spoken of in the Book of Mormon, includes the time spent in the spirit world after death. In other words, “the day of this life” is the fallen state, which continues in the spirit world, and we will remain in the fallen state until we exit the spirit world in the resurrection. As long as there are living proxies on the face of the earth who can perform the saving ordinances of the gospel in behalf of the dead in the temples, as far as God is concerned it’s just as if the dead are still alive and receiving those ordinances while in the flesh. This is why Peter taught that the dead who receive and live the gospel in the spirit world will be judged as if they had received the gospel while in the flesh.

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4 hours ago, Fifthziff said:

Why are you assuming that "emotional cognitive pains" are non-physical?  The human brain is physical.  When someone underwent a frontal lobotomy (in the past since that isn't done anymore) and their personality changed, is that because the physical aspect of their being was disrupted or somehow the surgery cut into their spirit being?  I am pretty sure Elder Holland explained in a conference talk that emotional pains and challenges can be just as physical as any other disease.  Elder Holland, "However bewildering this all may be, these afflictions are some of the realities of mortal life, and there should be no more shame in acknowledging them than in acknowledging a battle with high blood pressure or the sudden appearance of a malignant tumor."   He says in that statement that these cognitive related afflictions are mortal things. 

As I said, I was asking for deep thought on the topic.

Is a spirit physical ? When enoch was shown the fate of the world, he looked at the Spirit premortal Christ and Christ was crying. Obviously experiencing emotional, cognitive pain because of the world.

So my question was. If we could experience these types of things before earth. Why are we experiencing them again. Could we not have learned this through the spiritual means and therefore deem them unnecessary experiences to have again and again.

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On 2/11/2019 at 2:03 PM, Aaddaamm said:

How do you then interpret many people saying Lord Lord, have not we done many miracles and cast out devils in your name. And The Lord will say, depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I Never Knew You... this to me seems like a forced consignment into the appropriate state, and someone doesnt agree.

This is a valid argument and I am not trying to dismiss it.  There is a variant reading of this scripture that reads "I never authorized you" rather than, "I never knew you."  Clearly G-d knows all things and all people so I do not think this is about what the L-rd knows or does not know.  I believe the scripture is testifying to the importance of the priesthood and priesthood keys.  With the ancient understanding of kingdoms and those "chosen" to rule with the supreme Suzerain this follows exactly what one would expect concerning law and those authorized to act as proxy for the Suzerain.  I believe it is a lawful rebuke of those that attempt to take authority unto themselves rather than through proper channels.  I rationalize that Jesus is not speaking of the final judgement but rather more concerning the process of understanding and preparing for such.

 

The Traveler

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On 2/11/2019 at 2:09 PM, Aaddaamm said:

Your first part sounds great, in the perspective of the Father being the engineer. But I cannot see that we would have the knowledge or comprehension of what would need to take place to overcome our weaknesses as we lacked the mortal experience. I dont believe we were all knowing, or any smarter than perhaps Adam and Eve were in the garden.

People dont exactly know themselves. There are said to be 4 parts of a persons person. The blind self, the unconscious self, the hidden slef and the public self. We dont exactly know all 4 of these.

We know that Adam, prior to Eden, was Michael that helped form the earth and put into place the first critical element of the Plan of Salvation.  I can understand why we would be ignorant during a mortal fallen probation (in essence the very term “fallen” indicates a great loss) but I cannot rationalize why there would be need for ignorance in the pre-existence when the plan of salvation was presented to us it is entirety and we were also given opportunity to ask questions, discuss openly all aspects, and make an “informed decision if we would participate.   At such a juncture – I cannot appreciate or logically discern any reason for a G-d of truth and light to withhold or hide any perinate  information to which he had access himself.  If information was withheld – I see such as driven by a spirit of manipulation.  Which I see to be more in line with evil Satanic designs than with that of a G-d of truth and light.

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

This is a valid argument and I am not trying to dismiss it.  There is a variant reading of this scripture that reads "I never authorized you" rather than, "I never knew you."  Clearly G-d knows all things and all people so I do not think this is about what the L-rd knows or does not know.  I believe the scripture is testifying to the importance of the priesthood and priesthood keys.  With the ancient understanding of kingdoms and those "chosen" to rule with the supreme Suzerain this follows exactly what one would expect concerning law and those authorized to act as proxy for the Suzerain.  I believe it is a lawful rebuke of those that attempt to take authority unto themselves rather than through proper channels.  I rationalize that Jesus is not speaking of the final judgement but rather more concerning the process of understanding and preparing for such.

 

The Traveler

Mosiah 26:25-27

He is speaking of final judgement, then casts them into hell.

If you have to change the way scripture reads, you're almost always wrong. This is a tactic many religious people use to justify their wrong opinions. Jehovah's witnesses for example.

Although I can see your logic, I dont agree with it. It sounds wrong to me that a good intention person do good works, without authority and be cast into hell for it.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

We know that Adam, prior to Eden, was Michael that helped form the earth and put into place the first critical element of the Plan of Salvation.  I can understand why we would be ignorant during a mortal fallen probation (in essence the very term “fallen” indicates a great loss) but I cannot rationalize why there would be need for ignorance in the pre-existence when the plan of salvation was presented to us it is entirety and we were also given opportunity to ask questions, discuss openly all aspects, and make an “informed decision if we would participate.   At such a juncture – I cannot appreciate or logically discern any reason for a G-d of truth and light to withhold or hide any perinate  information to which he had access himself.  If information was withheld – I see such as driven by a spirit of manipulation.  Which I see to be more in line with evil Satanic designs than with that of a G-d of truth and light.

 

The Traveler

 

God does withhold or hide information from us though. We do not have all truth, which is why we are discussing this.

I see no point in living this life, if I had all knowledge and could progress into a being like michael, Lucifer and even christ, without a body. Seems to me then, that all I need is a body and my progression should continue from where it was, not from ground 0.

It is perfectly reasonable that God withholds information from us here and before so that we can learn and choose on our own. If I were told everything from an all knowing God, I wouldn't argue, question, or choose otherwise.

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42 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

God does withhold or hide information from us though. We do not have all truth, which is why we are discussing this.

I see no point in living this life, if I had all knowledge and could progress into a being like michael, Lucifer and even christ, without a body. Seems to me then, that all I need is a body and my progression should continue from where it was, not from ground 0.

It is perfectly reasonable that God withholds information from us here and before so that we can learn and choose on our own. If I were told everything from an all knowing God, I wouldn't argue, question, or choose otherwise.

As I understand things, we don't just need a physical body simply for the sake of having a body that will be resurrected. We need a physical body because it give is the ability to learn  and understand things for the most part not possible for pre-mortal spirit personages.

This principle is born out in various scriptures, many dealing with the need for Christ, himself, to enter mortality for reasons including to learn how to succor those who are tempted and in pain.

The physical body, then, which in its own way causes a veil between the Father and mankind,  also allows a whole other level of faith needed to comprehend things about God beyond what was possible when He was always before our eyes.

It is like fatherhood. One can read about and observe fathers, but it isn't until one becomes a father that one can begin to really comprehend fatherhood.

And, for faith to work its full measure, at least for most of us (children who die before 8-years-old, etc.not included), necessitates starting pretty much at ground 0.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

As I understand things, we don't just need a physical body simply for the sake of having a body that will be resurrected. We need a physical body because it give is the ability to learn  and understand things for the most part not possible for pre-mortal spirit personages.

The physical body, then, which in its own way causes a veil between the Father and mankind,  also allows a whole other level of faith needed to comprehend things about God beyond what was possible when He was always before our eyes.

It is like fatherhood. One can read about and observe fathers, but it isn't until one becomes a father that one can begin to really comprehend fatherhood.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

How does this theory work for people that die without having lived more than 2 years on earth.

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5 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

How does this theory work for people that die without having lived more than 2 years on earth.

Assuming they, unlike us, even need it to work for them, I suspect it does so in much the same way as all the earthly ordinances they died too young to receive.  It is covered by the atonement and fulfilled during the afterlife, likely when they are resurrected.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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