Need help re. Plan of salvation


Aaddaamm
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9 hours ago, wenglund said:

As I understand things, we don't just need a physical body simply for the sake of having a body that will be resurrected. We need a physical body because it give is the ability to learn  and understand things for the most part not possible for pre-mortal spirit.

I should have been more specific. 

How does your theory work for children that died before experiencing the above reference.

Do they miss out on the learning, yet are saved. Seems to me that this is not the case. That your above mentioned reason for being here is wrong.

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7 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I should have been more specific. 

How does your theory work for children that died before experiencing the above reference.

Do they miss out on the learning, yet are saved. Seems to me that this is not the case. That your above mentioned reason for being here is wrong.

The objective of learning is to change.  We are just speculating here because there's no direct revelation on the matter but it is our understanding that children who die before the age of accountability are spirits who are already on that spiritual level and don't need to change.  Their learning continues - like everyone else after their mortal probation - in the spirit world.

Edited by anatess2
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18 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

God does withhold or hide information from us though. We do not have all truth, which is why we are discussing this.

I see no point in living this life, if I had all knowledge and could progress into a being like michael, Lucifer and even christ, without a body. Seems to me then, that all I need is a body and my progression should continue from where it was, not from ground 0.

It is perfectly reasonable that God withholds information from us here and before so that we can learn and choose on our own. If I were told everything from an all knowing God, I wouldn't argue, question, or choose otherwise.

I don't think God withholds or hides information.  I believe it's there for us to see, we just are not ready yet to comprehend them.  It's like how Elder Uchdorf illustrated blessings.  Blessing are pouring down from God like rain on the earth.  But some of us have our umbrellas up so we don't feel it.  When we're ready to be comfortable in receiving knowledge, then we, by our own choice, would put down the umbrella and receive the knowledge.

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On 2/12/2019 at 7:19 PM, Aaddaamm said:

As I said, I was asking for deep thought on the topic.

Is a spirit physical ? When enoch was shown the fate of the world, he looked at the Spirit premortal Christ and Christ was crying. Obviously experiencing emotional, cognitive pain because of the world.

The spirit is physical because God created spirit bodies for them.  The objective of this life is to learn to "drive" the spirit bodies using the mortal bodies as the "training wheels".

 

On 2/12/2019 at 7:19 PM, Aaddaamm said:

So my question was. If we could experience these types of things before earth. Why are we experiencing them again. Could we not have learned this through the spiritual means and therefore deem them unnecessary experiences to have again and again.

Mortal bodies - training wheels.  To be able to master the body through all the myriads of emotions and desires that are a product of free will.  To be able to choose actions that which is Godly through pain, fear, joy, etc. etc. without God having to choose them for us.  We cannot have been free to choose in God's presence as no unclean thing can dwell with God.  The price for choosing that which is unclean - whether willfully or through ignorance - is spiritual death (being separated from God).  But the paradox is - for us to progress, we have to learn to exercise free will and such exercise demands that there be an opposition to all things.  For us to recognize clean, we have to recognize unclean... for there is no light unless there is darkness, no joy unless there is despair - and that unclean thing cannot exist in the presence of God.  For God to be God, he must needs be Just - allow death for the price of uncleanliness.  At the same time, for God to be God, he must needs be Merciful - provide a way for us to be cleansed to overcome death and come back to God's presence.   The only way to redeem us from death is for a perfected clean Spirit to die (be separated from the Father) for the sake of the unclean - and thus the atonement was made necessary.  If we accept the conditions of the atonement, we can be cleansed and come back to the presence of God.

 

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

The only way to redeem us from death is for a perfected clean Spirit to die (be separated from the Father)

I agree with everything in your last comment except for what I quoted you above. I tend to believe that the only way to redeem us from our spiritual death is through Christ who had no spiritual death and thus why he is called the life and the way.

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2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with everything in your last comment except for what I quoted you above. I tend to believe that the only way to redeem us from our spiritual death is through Christ who had no spiritual death and thus why he is called the life and the way.

Perfected clean spirit = Jesus Christ.  He's the perfected clean spirit that answered the call to pay for our uncleanliness.  The Holy Ghost is another one that could have done it, but it was not his mission.  It was Christ's.  That's why Christ had to die (be completely separated from the Father).  The completion of the atonement was when he uttered the words, "Father, why have you forsaken me?".  At that time, Jesus Christ was completely separated from the presence of the Father - a spiritual death that he didn't earn through sin but through voluntarily accepting it.

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35 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't know about this but I would bet it's false.

If you don't know, how can it be false?

It's a logical extrapolation.  Children who die without having fully exercised their free will through mortality must not have need to experience the change needed in mortal existence.  They continue their learning (change) in the spirit world without the burden of the mortal body.

It is neither true nor false.  It's an extrapolation.  Unless you have revelation that prove this extrapolation false. 

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Perfected clean spirit = Jesus Christ.  He's the perfected clean spirit that answered the call to pay for our uncleanliness.  The Holy Ghost is another one that could have done it, but it was not his mission.  It was Christ's.  That's why Christ had to die (be completely separated from the Father).  The completion of the atonement was when he uttered the words, "Father, why have you forsaken me?".  At that time, Jesus Christ was completely separated from the presence of the Father - a spiritual death that he didn't earn through sin but through voluntarily accepting it.

I guess it's a little quibble point but spiritual death is being dead to good works. One of the effects of that spiritual death is the removal of the presence of God. An effect is not the definition but a result.

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

If you don't know, how can it be false?

It's a logical extrapolation.  Children who die without having fully exercised their free will through mortality must not have need to experience the change needed in mortal existence.  They continue their learning (change) in the spirit world without the burden of the mortal body.

It is neither true nor false.  It's an extrapolation.  Unless you have revelation that prove this extrapolation false. 

So, logically then, under your said premise, a child who is murdered was predestined for that outcome.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I guess it's a little quibble point but spiritual death is being dead to good works. One of the effects of that spiritual death is the removal of the presence of God. An effect is not the definition but a result.

Spiritual death = removed from the presence of God.  This is the definition, not the effect.

We are all here in mortal existence removed from the presence of God.  We are in a spiritual death.  Spiritual death does not give us death to good works due to the light of Christ.

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9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If you don't know, how can it be false?

 

You seem to be confusing the Rob with Jesus Christ. Him not knowing the answer has nothing to do with it being true or false.

Here is a quote from Joseph Smith that May aid in your question 

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave”

It appears exaltation doesn’t come immediately after death or even judgement. It is something that we will continue to learn. So both us and children who die early will still be working for exaltation after this life.

Edited by Fether
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20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

:confused:

 

I’ll shout you straight... I was catching up with the conversation and when I read your comment I thought you were someone else responding to Rob, who was responding to someone else. go ahead and discount my entire comment 😛 

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28 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Spiritual death = removed from the presence of God.  This is the definition, not the effect.

We are all here in mortal existence removed from the presence of God.  We are in a spiritual death.  Spiritual death does not give us death to good works due to the light of Christ.

Spiritual death is being dead to good works which results in the loss of the spirit. When we repent and are baptized we become born again in the spirit, born again into righteousness, alive again in the spirit.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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On 2/13/2019 at 11:19 AM, Aaddaamm said:

So my question was. If we could experience these types of things before earth. Why are we experiencing them again. Could we not have learned this through the spiritual means and therefore deem them unnecessary experiences to have again and again.

So many good university courses contain a practical element, often in the form of an internship, involving temporary placement in a work place where one, under the supervision of a fully qualified and experienced mentor, seeks to implement in a real life situation the knowledge and skills they have only been studying about previously. 

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Death, Spiritual

See also Damnation; Devil; Fall of Adam and Eve; Hell; Salvation; Sons of Perdition

Separation from God and His influences; to die as to things pertaining to righteousness. Lucifer and a third part of the hosts of heaven suffered a spiritual death when they were cast out of heaven (D&C 29:36–37).

Spiritual death was introduced into the world by the Fall of Adam (Moses 6:48). Mortals with evil thoughts, words, and works are spiritually dead while still alive on earth (1 Tim. 5:6). Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the gospel, men and women can become clean from sin and overcome spiritual death.

Spiritual death also occurs following the death of the mortal body. Both resurrected beings and the devil and his angels will be judged. Those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer spiritual death. This death is often called the second death (Alma 12:16; Hel. 14:16–19; D&C 76:36–38).



Elder Nelson, April 1992 General Conference

Quote

 

But there is another type of separation known in scripture as spiritual death. (See 2 Ne. 9:12; Alma 12:16; Alma 42:9; Hel. 14:16, 18.) It “is defined as a state of spiritual alienation from God.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 2:217.) Thus, one can be very much alive physically but dead spiritually.

Spiritual death is more likely when goals are unbalanced toward things physical. Paul explained this concept to the Romans: “If ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8:13.)

If physical death should strike before moral wrongs have been made right, opportunity for repentance will have been forfeited. Thus, “the [real] sting of death is sin.” (1 Cor. 15:56.)

Even the Savior cannot save us in our sins. He will redeem us from our sins, but only upon condition of our repentance. We are responsible for our own spiritual survival or death. (See Rom. 8:13–14; Hel. 14:18; D&C 29:41–45.)

 

 

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5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The objective of learning is to change.  We are just speculating here because there's no direct revelation on the matter but it is our understanding that children who die before the age of accountability are spirits who are already on that spiritual level and don't need to change.  Their learning continues - like everyone else after their mortal probation - in the spirit world.

Then answer this question, in light of this. Why cant we all stay as spirits and learn what the children learned, before they died at 8yrs.

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

Mortal bodies - training wheels.  To be able to master the body through all the myriads of emotions and desires that are a product of free will.  To be able to choose actions that which is Godly through pain, fear, joy, etc. etc. without God having to choose them for us.  We cannot have been free to choose in God's presence as no unclean thing can dwell with God.  

 

When Satan Opposed Gods plan, there was a war in heaven. This means, satan sinned in Gods presence, yet God allowed satan to stay in his presence for a long enough time for him to influence 1 third of all the hosts of heaven. That is probably trillions of people. So sin and uncleaness can be in Gods presence?

 

Did we not choose God over Satan premortal?

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with everything in your last comment except for what I quoted you above. I tend to believe that the only way to redeem us from our spiritual death is through Christ who had no spiritual death and thus why he is called the life and the way.

I believe and so does Bruce R. Mckonkie and many other apostles, that Christ experienced spiritual death on the cross for a short moment, when he cried, "Eli eli, Lama sabacthani", which is to say: my God my God, why have you forsaken me.

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3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

So many good university courses contain a practical element, often in the form of an internship, involving temporary placement in a work place where one, under the supervision of a fully qualified and experienced mentor, seeks to implement in a real life situation the knowledge and skills they have only been studying about previously. 

This is logical.

However, Gods ways are not our ways, therefore dont be so confident that this is the answer.

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6 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

I believe and so does Bruce R. Mckonkie and many other apostles, that Christ experienced spiritual death on the cross for a short moment, when he cried, "Eli eli, Lama sabacthani", which is to say: my God my God, why have you forsaken me.

Well, its impossible to suffer being spiritually dead if one is actually alive to the things of righteousness. Its an oxymoron to say one suffered spiritual death even though they were alive to the things of righteousness. Again, we shouldnt confuse and conflate side effect with the definition of the cause. 

Besides that, the words Christ exclaimed was reciting an old psalm that testified of his cause as the Savior of mankind. Had he really doubted and questioned God on the cross he would have sinned as lack of faith and doubt is sin.

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3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, its impossible to suffer being spiritually dead if one is actually alive to the things of righteousness. Its an oxymoron to say one suffered spiritual death even though they were alive to the things of righteousness. Again, we shouldnt confuse and conflate side effect with the definition of the cause. 

Besides that, the words Christ exclaimed was reciting an old psalm that testified of his cause as the Savior of mankind. Had he really doubted and questioned God on the cross he would have sinned as lack of faith and doubt is sin.

Doubt and lacking faith are NOT sins. Last general conference stated that very clearly.

Which psalm ??

Bruce R. Mckonkie wrote that definition you know. You shouldnt be so quick to cling to it. If you re read that definition, it says, spiritual death is death pertaining to things of righteousness, but this only applies to the judgement. The other type of spiritual death is separation from God.

 

Christ needed to experience spiritual death, otherwise he is a liar when he says he descended below all things. I could say I've experienced worse than Him, because I have experienced being without God and he hasn't.

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37 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

Then answer this question, in light of this. Why cant we all stay as spirits and learn what the children learned, before they died at 8yrs.

We didn't all have the same level of knowledge in pre-mortal existence.

Here's some scripture verses:

D&C 138:56

56 Even before they were born, they, with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.

 

Alma 13:3

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works;

 

Most of us needed the full experience of mortal existence in our progression continuing from our first lessons in pre-mortal existence and to be continued in the next estate of post-mortal life.  Others, may not have.  And still, others may not have but are still given the full measure of mortality that they may be called upon to assist in the work of salvation.

Edited by anatess2
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14 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I should have been more specific. 

How does your theory work for children that died before experiencing the above reference.

Do they miss out on the learning, yet are saved. Seems to me that this is not the case. That your above mentioned reason for being here is wrong.

That was clear enough before. Perhaps my response needs a bit more explaining.

As with other aspects of the gospel, it is uncertain whether children who die before 8-years-old, need the ordinances. Unlike us, they may have progressed far enough as spirits to only require a body. Perhaps the same is true for the things needed to be learned by way of the body.

It is also possible  that they may gain the needed experience once they are resurrected and have a body with which to learn as described.

Either way, the fact that some children don't  learn through the body while in mortality, doesn't make wrong what I suggested about what is needed for the rest of us, any more than young children not needing salvific ordinances makes wrong the belief that the ordinances are needed for the rest of us.;

Hopefully, that is clear. If not, try focusing on the rule rather than the exceptions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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