Need help re. Plan of salvation

[askandanswer]

1 hour ago, Aaddaamm said:

This is logical.

However, Gods ways are not our ways, therefore dont be so confident that this is the answer.

There are very, very few answers. Mostly, there is just an almost infinite range of possibilities each of which is more or less likely. The way to turn a possibility into an answer is to choose a manageable range of the more likely possibilities, and then study them. After an appropriate amount and methodology of study, choose what seems to you to be the most likely possibility and then seek for a spiritual confirmation through prayer. This is an almost certain method of obtaining answers, and if  this method doesn't result in an answer, its unlikely to be because the method is faulty. My suggestion that our time here on earth, and the purpose of our time can be vaguely compared to an internship undertaken as part of a course of study was a suggested possibility rather than an attempt to provide an answer. It might be that this possibility is correct, or maybe its not, I'm just offering it as one suggestion for you to consider.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

Doubt and lacking faith are NOT sins. Last general conference stated that very clearly.

Which psalm ??

Bruce R. Mckonkie wrote that definition you know. You shouldnt be so quick to cling to it. If you re read that definition, it says, spiritual death is death pertaining to things of righteousness, but this only applies to the judgement. The other type of spiritual death is separation from God.

 

Christ needed to experience spiritual death, otherwise he is a liar when he says he descended below all things. I could say I've experienced worse than Him, because I have experienced being without God and he hasn't.

Here is the Messianic Psalm from 22

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
            2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

Read the comments here-

http://www.monachos.net/conversation/topic/2860-eli-eli-lama-sabachthani-why-does-christ-quote-psalm-22-from-the-cross/

Christ descended below all things but yet never went into hell, nor suffered spiritual death, was never an actual sinner, etc. He felt the effects of the sin, that's what is meant.

 

[Traveler]

On 2/13/2019 at 2:00 PM, Aaddaamm said:

Mosiah 26:25-27

He is speaking of final judgement, then casts them into hell.

If you have to change the way scripture reads, you're almost always wrong. This is a tactic many religious people use to justify their wrong opinions. Jehovah's witnesses for example.

Although I can see your logic, I dont agree with it. It sounds wrong to me that a good intention person do good works, without authority and be cast into hell for it.

I am not sure we are reading Mosiah correctly - everyone that is not baptized after talking to the missionaries - that prays in the name of G-d while attending their church is cast into outer darkness???

 

The Traveler

[Fifthziff]

On 2/12/2019 at 5:19 PM, Aaddaamm said:

As I said, I was asking for deep thought on the topic.

Is a spirit physical ? When enoch was shown the fate of the world, he looked at the Spirit premortal Christ and Christ was crying. Obviously experiencing emotional, cognitive pain because of the world.

So my question was. If we could experience these types of things before earth. Why are we experiencing them again. Could we not have learned this through the spiritual means and therefore deem them unnecessary experiences to have again and again.

Im pretty sure its safe to say that what Christ could do as a premortal being is not necessarily what we could do.

[Guest Mores]

The answer lies in the pondering of this question:

Why is it a good thing that children always seek out dangerous activities?

But the answer is not what you think.  It is actually a good reason. And it is the basis of why we're given this mortal probation.

[theorangeandblue]

On 2/8/2019 at 5:37 AM, Aaddaamm said:

I am not looking for a 'primary' answer to this subject. Just asking for some in depth thought.

My thoughts have been around the plan of salvation but more specifically the purpose of Mortal existence. It does not seem so clear to me that the purpose of Mortal existence is fair or is what we think it to be. For example the scriptures say and the prophets teach that the purpose of this Earth life was to come here and gain a body and have mortal experiences such as: suffering, physical pain and death in the physical sense. They also teach that God ordained it to be a space of testing to see if Man will do what they ask of him. I think it is safe to assume other kinds of non physical pain such as emotional cognitive pains may have been experienced in the pre mortal existence and do not necessarily become a part of the purpose for us being here.

So my question is: what is the point of this life for a person that knows nothing about Christ or God or their ways, lives their life and then dies and then perhaps they hear about it in the afterlife. If they were going to hear about it and accepted in the afterlife why did they go through mortal experience and why is this mortal experience so crucial to our eternal progression? Why couldn't I go through life without knowing God, then accepting in the afterlife. Seems there are different rules for those that are born into a place where Christ and his ways are known as opposed to those who know nothing of Christ. 

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

The plan of Salvation is through Jesus Christ who lived a sinless life and died on a cross paying the penalty for our sin. 

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16

 

But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us 

Romans 5:8

For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord 

Romans 6:23

Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through Me

John 14:6

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God

not as a result of works so that no one may boast 

Ephesians 28:8-9

[GaleG]

On 2/8/2019 at 5:37 AM, Aaddaamm said:

More to the point my question is what is the point of the mortal experience. Because it does not seem so clear to me that finding Christ and relying on him and keeping covenants and repenting in this life is the only way to enter the celestial Kingdom.

I hope I am clear.

I found several sections that might help.

"Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God,  
the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense  
of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord,  
and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an  
unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say  
unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is  
to endure a never-ending torment” (Mosiah 2:38-39).
 
"Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought  
about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea,  
this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could  
not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of  
justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13).

More about the probation is in Alma 34:32-35.

Thank you,

Gale

[Aaddaamm]

I think people are misunderstanding my question.

The probationary state is not the only state in which repentance is possible, so mosiah and Alma did not have the full scope of the plan of salvation. Because people can repent when they are dead.

 

My question is:

Why is the Mortal experience so important. Could we not have done all of this a better way ? We exercised free will before we came to earth, could we not have a different plan in which eternal justice doesnt limit so many people, and instead have an eternity to try perfect ourselves

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Aaddaamm said:

I think people are misunderstanding my question.

The probationary state is not the only state in which repentance is possible, so mosiah and Alma did not have the full scope of the plan of salvation. Because people can repent when they are dead.

 

My question is:

Why is the Mortal experience so important. Could we not have done all of this a better way ? We exercised free will before we came to earth, could we not have a different plan in which eternal justice doesnt limit so many people, and instead have an eternity to try perfect ourselves

1) We don't perfect ourselves.  Christ does that when a person is His disciple.

2) Justice is freeing, sin limits you.  

3) Each person will have 1000+ years of pobabion before the Final Judgement.  Is that not enough?  Do you think a person's heart is gig to suddenly change at year 500,435? 

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Aaddaamm said:

Why is the Mortal experience so important. Could we not have done all of this a better way ? We exercised free will before we came to earth, could we not have a different plan in which eternal justice doesnt limit so many people, and instead have an eternity to try perfect ourselves

 

List for Purpose of Earth Life with scripture support.

1)  We are here to learn via experience that God is benevolent and wise and as such, He deserves our faith. (loyalty, trust, and obedience)

2) Our thoughts, words, and actions (or inaction) all have consequences. (Mosiah 4:30)

3) Evil and chaos are relentless forces that require constant opposition. (2 Nephi 2:11)

4) We should recognize that following God’s plan is the only way to obtain true happiness and Joy. Therefore, we should not need a of fear of punishment nor a promise of reward to motivate us to do good. Choosing the right in and of itself is a self-rewarding activity.  (2 Nephi 2:25)

5) Mortality is designed to prepare us for future challenges by strengthening us, and forever conditioning us against sin and temptation. (D&C 122:7-8)

6) We are here to work, to prepare to meet God. (Alma 34:32)

7) We are here to receive a body, and begin our education about matter. To learn how the physical elements can be manipulated and controlled.  (2 Nephi 2:14)

8 ) God wants us to understand what it is like to have a spouse, children, and family.  To experience love, and all the benefits and challenges associated with marriage and parenting. (The Family: A Proclamation to the World)

9) We are here to grow in knowledge, and develop talents and gifts. (D&C 130:19)

10) We are here to partake of ordinances and witness the Atonement of Jesus Christ. (D&C 20:77-79)

11) This probationary state was designed to test which spirits are worthy to continue progressing toward greater power and authority. (Abraham 3:25)

 

Earth life was designed by the Gods to prove us, to see whether we would sink or swim in an environment that stripped us of our arm floaties.

 

 

I went thru a surgical residency wherein we learned all about surgery.  Book learning, observation, and performance with direct supervision.  We you exit residency and perform your first case without any backup, it is a whole different world...   

Edited July 7, 2019 by mikbone

[Aaddaamm]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

1) We don't perfect ourselves.  Christ does that when a person is His disciple.

2) Justice is freeing, sin limits you.  

3) Each person will have 1000+ years of pobabion before the Final Judgement.  Is that not enough?  Do you think a person's heart is gig to suddenly change at year 500,435? 

1. Christ cannot perfect a sinner. That is to say a person perfects themselves by using christ's atonement. (I.e perfected through Christ) therefore Christ cannot perfect anyone unless they use their agency to choose to repent.

 

2. Agree

 

3. Only the righteous will have 1000+ years

And yes, however long it may take, a person can change given the right time and circumstance.

[Just_A_Guy]

4 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

I think people are misunderstanding my question.

The probationary state is not the only state in which repentance is possible, so mosiah and Alma did not have the full scope of the plan of salvation. Because people can repent when they are dead.

 

My question is:

Why is the Mortal experience so important. Could we not have done all of this a better way ? We exercised free will before we came to earth, could we not have a different plan in which eternal justice doesnt limit so many people, and instead have an eternity to try perfect ourselves

A couple of thoughts:

1)  There are at least four key handicaps to “agency” as we exercised it prior to birth, in comparison to agency as it exists in mortality:

a) We had undeniable knowledge of God’s will;

b) We were aware of the undeniable power of God to contain /eradicate the influence of, and even punish, those who rebel against Him;

c) We had none of the appetites inherent to a physical body; and 

d) We had virtually no ability to inflict meaningful pain or harm on our peers.

As long as those handicaps are in place, it seems to me that any regimen designed to screen those who would use the powers of exaltation to act more-or-less as the narcissistic psychopaths of the Greek or Roman pantheons, versus those who would do the works of righteousness for the benefit of the weaker intelligences around them—and any practiced-based regimen designed to train folks to emulate the second paradigm of godhood rather than the first—will be of stunted efficacy.

2)  A regimen that gives me an eternity to perfect myself, without the handicaps outlined above, is also an eternity in which other people will be subject to my missteps.  Part of divine justice is that the amount of pain I can unilaterally impose is finite—at some point, I don’t get to hurt other people any more.  I  can still wind up with a pretty cushy existence; I just don’t get to claim an exaltation in which wield unquestioned power over a bunch of helpless victims (as my mortal probation and post-mortal time in spirit prison indicated that I am disposed to do).  

Put another way:  God wants to make sure that any new mini-gods will not be Hitler.  But a mini-god can’t meaningfully choose not to be Hitler unless the mini-god, in some realm, did have a meaningful chance to become Hitler—and rejected it.  That’s what mortality is. But God’s justice doesn’t let mortals who don’t get it the first time, just keep inflicting pain on their fellow mortals unless or until they get tired of the game.  The Plan of Salvation lets us use our brothers and sisters as guinea pigs, of sorts—but only for a little while.

3)  Mortality has value, not only for the training and development it beings, but because it is designed to be a joyful state of existence; and it’d be a crying shame if we had to completely miss out on all of that joy.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[theorangeandblue]

3 hours ago, Aaddaamm said:

1. Christ cannot perfect a sinner. That is to say a person perfects themselves by using christ's atonement. (I.e perfected through Christ) therefore Christ cannot perfect anyone unless they use their agency to choose to repent.

 

2. Agree

 

3. Only the righteous will have 1000+ years

And yes, however long it may take, a person can change given the right time and circumstance.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life 

John 3:16

 

Jesus said to him I am the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but through Me

John 14:6

Jesus came to earth lived a sinless life died on the cross for our sins and three days later rose again. We can’t save ourselves 

I do not nullify the grace of God for if righteousness comes through the Law then Christ died needlessly 

Galatians 2:21 

(meaning if works saves us Christ’s death on the cross was absolutely pointless)

 

We are given a free will on whether to accept God’s free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ or reject it.

 

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God 

Not as a result of works so that no one may boast

Ephesians 2:8-9 

(Meaning we are saved through Christ and through Him alone and we can’t work our way)

 

If we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 

1 John 1:9

 

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

Luke 19:10

 

!ea 

Jesus said to him have I been so long with you and yet you have not come to know Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father how can you show us the Father?

 

John 14:9

Not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God He has seen the Father 

John 6:46

 Jesus the Son of God,God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are the same God meaning the Creator of the Universe died for us and rose again three days later. Christ died for all 

 

But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us

Romans 5:8

 

 

 

[Fifthziff]

On 7/7/2019 at 3:18 PM, Aaddaamm said:

I think people are misunderstanding my question.

The probationary state is not the only state in which repentance is possible, so mosiah and Alma did not have the full scope of the plan of salvation. Because people can repent when they are dead.

 

My question is:

Why is the Mortal experience so important. Could we not have done all of this a better way ? We exercised free will before we came to earth, could we not have a different plan in which eternal justice doesnt limit so many people, and instead have an eternity to try perfect ourselves

The mortal experience is different than any other state of being in that we are "dual beings" while mortal.  We have thoughts and desires that come from two different sources, the human brain and the spirit.  Even at death, what remains is the persons thoughts from their spirit being but no longer will they have the thoughts and desires driven by the human brain other than those things that have been "incorporated" so-to-speak into their spiritual nature.  In other words, even in the spirit prison they may have things to resolve, the natural man habits that they have taken on in their spiritual being will remain and these are the things those people will have to "repent" from while in the spirit prison, discussed in D&C 138.  But even in the spirit prison, those people will not have novel or ongoing influences from the human, fallen brain that are only there during mortality. 

This is why having an understanding of what it is to be a dual being while in mortality, that it is literally two different and often times opposing thought patterns and desires is an important part of our gospel.  Upon resurrection a person becomes 'one' being and therefore at rest.