Not opening priesthood with prayer


gclayjr
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All,

I am new here.

I recently had a conversation with my brother where he expressed anxiety over the fact that Priesthood doesn't start with a prayer.  Sacrament meeting does end with a prayer. In the past,  all meetings start and end with prayers. I told him that I have faith that this comes from the Lord, and therefor is OK. But I couldn't give him either historical examples of meetings that don't start with prayers, or a further explanation other than trust the Lord's anointed in regards to administrative or procedural things, which he does accept. However, It would be nice if there was any better explanation I could give him.

Any Ideas?

 

Regards,

George Clay

 

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Do you know that this is the first I've heard of Priesthood... and I guess Sunday School and Relief Society too?... not starting with a prayer.

We still start with a prayer in Primary, hold opening exercises and Singing Time, then go off to the age-group classes where we end the class with a prayer.

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Do you know that this is the first I've heard of Priesthood... and I guess Sunday School and Relief Society too?... not starting with a prayer.

We still start with a prayer in Primary, hold opening exercises and Singing Time, then go off to the age-group classes where we end the class with a prayer.

Correct, Primary still follows the usual pattern. The classes for older youth and adults do not. With regards to the flip side of the question, there are very few meetings in the church that are required to start out with a prayer. Most of them still have one, but many of those meetings are not actually required to do so. My guess is that the brethren want us to spend ample time discussing the gospel since there is 1 less hour of block time on Sundays. It is nothing I would get anxious about.

I know in my ward there are a few brethren who will pray for over 5 minutes if they are asked. Better, I believe, to dive right into the discussion and let the spirit start working than have folks get frustrated because brother so and so feels the need to preach a sermon and show how mature he is through his "prayer". We all know who these people are, and it's even worse when they are asked to pray at the end of the meeting...especially when you have little children.

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5 hours ago, gclayjr said:

All,

I am new here.

I recently had a conversation with my brother where he expressed anxiety over the fact that Priesthood doesn't start with a prayer.  Sacrament meeting does end with a prayer. In the past,  all meetings start and end with prayers. I told him that I have faith that this comes from the Lord, and therefor is OK. But I couldn't give him either historical examples of meetings that don't start with prayers, or a further explanation other than trust the Lord's anointed in regards to administrative or procedural things, which he does accept. However, It would be nice if there was any better explanation I could give him.

Any Ideas?

 

Regards,

George Clay

 

Not meaning to be rude to your brother, but this is a pretty petty issue. It’s like complaining that one ward has the bishop sit to the right of the podium and another they sit to the left.

Why does this but him so much?

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Quote

Not meaning to be rude to your brother, but this is a pretty petty issue. It’s like complaining that one ward has the bishop sit to the right of the podium and another they sit to the left.

Why does this but him so much?

He isn't losing his testimony or anything (although we did have 2 long conversations about it). It just seems that throughout history we have been instructed to begin and end each meeting with a prayer. I was just wondering if this was a true first, or if anybody knows of any other situations where meetings didn't have opening prayers. 

 

Regards,

George Clay

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I don't recall ever starting priesthood class with prayer.

Granted, a prayer used to be offered during priesthood opening exercises,. However, we no longer have opening exercises. So, in terms of priesthood meetings, the only change is the elimination of opening exercises.

I suspect that opening exercises over the last half century or so is a hold-over from the time prior to the consolidated schedule, when morning meetings (priesthood/Relief Society and Sunday School) were separate from the afternoon meeting (Sacrament meeting), and because they were separate, it made sense to open the morning meetings with an opening exercise and prayer as well as the  afternoon. 

Even with the consolidated schedule, it was not uncommon for Wards to begin with priesthood, which likewise made opening exercises reasonable.

Now that Sunday meetings have been cut to two hours and standardized with Sacrament Meeting first, opening exercises no longer make sense--with the exception of primary, for its own reasons.

So, I don't see the problem. I hope this helps.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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Matters Matter, Wenglund.

Thank you. Both very good points. Yes, we have both been to the temple and that is a good example. Also, we are both old enough to remember when there was a break in Church services on Sunday. In fact we both grew up in the Fingerlakes region of NY where going home and coming back entailed much more than walking a few blocks.

 

Regards,

George Clay

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8 hours ago, wenglund said:

Now that Sunday meetings have been cut to two hours and standardized with Sacrament Meeting first, opening exercises no longer make no sense--with the exception of primary, for its own reasons.

Primary eliminated Sharing Time. 

I still don't know why opening prayer got axed with the opening exercises.  It doesn't need to be.  It's actually a great way to get the class settled and put into a spiritual mindset.  I mean, even a basketball game open and closes with a prayer.  Doesn't matter if they had a game right before it.  Each and every game starts and closes with a prayer at least in my neck of the woods.  It just makes sense that prayer book-ends a meeting unless it really couldn't.  And I haven't quite found a good reason yet to have to eliminate it.  If we're talking about saving time, then Sacrament Meeting would not end with a closing prayer to "save time".  But it does.

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When I heard Elder Cook indicate that opening prayers would no longer be a part of Priesthood opening exercises, the first thing that came to my mind was 2 Nephi 31:8

"And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing.  For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray."

I contrasted this verse with what Elder Cook said in his remarks at October General Conference https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/deep-and-lasting-conversion-to-heavenly-father-and-the-lord-jesus-christ?lang=eng

"While the sacrament meeting should have an opening and closing prayer, the second meeting need only have a closing prayer".11

Its a trivial and irrelevant observation, but that's just what came to my mind when I heard Elder Cook say this. I guess that in some ways, it's not too different from what Christ said in 3rd Nephi 20:1  AND it came to pass that he commanded the multitude that they should cease to pray, and also his disciples.  And he commanded them that they should not cease to pray in their hearts
Christ himself told the people to stop praying. Probably because He had more important things that He wanted to do and a better way to use the very limited time that was available. 

I guess this apparent contrast between Nephi and Elder Cook is a reminder of how modern prophets trump ancient scripture, and how important it is to keep context in mind.

I note that Elder Cook mentions only that "the second meeting need only have a closing prayer." This seems to me that he is saying only that it is not necessary to have an opening prayer. That is not the same as saying thou shalt not have an opening prayer. The way Elder Cook has worded this statement might leave open the possibility of having an opening prayer if that was considered desirable, even though it might not strictly be necessary although I doubt that many presiding officers would adopt such an interpretation. 

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Primary eliminated Sharing Time. 

I still don't know why opening prayer got axed with the opening exercises.  It doesn't need to be.  It's actually a great way to get the class settled and put into a spiritual mindset.  I mean, even a basketball game open and closes with a prayer.  Doesn't matter if they had a game right before it.  Each and every game starts and closes with a prayer at least in my neck of the woods.  It just makes sense that prayer book-ends a meeting unless it really couldn't.  And I haven't quite found a good reason yet to have to eliminate it.  If we're talking about saving time, then Sacrament Meeting would not end with a closing prayer to "save time".  But it does.

Perhaps it is different for you than it is for me. I tend to bring the Spirit with me from Sacrament meeting. So, the so-called "axing" isn't the least problematic for me. If it still is for you, maybe you could work on bringing the Spirit with you and/or say a silent prayer yourself to evoke the Spirit in the classroom  . I don't wish to see your spiritual experience diminished because of what the Brethren were inspired to do for the rest of us.

Than ks, -Wade Englund-

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3 hours ago, askandanswer said:

When I heard Elder Cook indicate that opening prayers would no longer be a part of Priesthood opening exercises, the first thing that came to my mind was 2 Nephi 31:8

"And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing.  For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray."

I contrasted this verse with what Elder Cook said in his remarks at October General Conference https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/deep-and-lasting-conversion-to-heavenly-father-and-the-lord-jesus-christ?lang=eng

"While the sacrament meeting should have an opening and closing prayer, the second meeting need only have a closing prayer".11

Its a trivial and irrelevant observation, but that's just what came to my mind when I heard Elder Cook say this. I guess that in some ways, it's not too different from what Christ said in 3rd Nephi 20:1  AND it came to pass that he commanded the multitude that they should cease to pray, and also his disciples.  And he commanded them that they should not cease to pray in their hearts
Christ himself told the people to stop praying. Probably because He had more important things that He wanted to do and a better way to use the very limited time that was available. 

I guess this apparent contrast between Nephi and Elder Cook is a reminder of how modern prophets trump ancient scripture, and how important it is to keep context in mind.

I note that Elder Cook mentions only that "the second meeting need only have a closing prayer." This seems to me that he is saying only that it is not necessary to have an opening prayer. That is not the same as saying thou shalt not have an opening prayer. The way Elder Cook has worded this statement might leave open the possibility of having an opening prayer if that was considered desirable, even though it might not strictly be necessary although I doubt that many presiding officers would adopt such an interpretation. 

At times I, too, have had silly thoughts cross my mind in response to changes within the Church. including thoughts prompted by an overly narrow reading of scriptures.

Maybe there is a bit of the autism in me that renders me resistant to change.

However, I try not to be too hard on myself, and see such circumstances instead as cause for increased humility and an opportunity to overcome some of my evident weaknesses.

In fact, I wonder if some changes are made just to get me to be more humble and introspective, though that, too, may be just another of my silly thoughts. :)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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16 hours ago, wenglund said:

Perhaps it is different for you than it is for me. I tend to bring the Spirit with me from Sacrament meeting. So, the so-called "axing" isn't the least problematic for me. If it still is for you, maybe you could work on bringing the Spirit with you and/or say a silent prayer yourself to evoke the Spirit in the classroom  . I don't wish to see your spiritual experience diminished because of what the Brethren were inspired to do for the rest of us.

Than ks, -Wade Englund-

Wenglund, this is not about me.  This is simply an opinion on the lack of opening prayer that doesn't make sense.  This, of course, is not the first policy that the Brethren changed that doesn't make sense.  It's fine to say that it doesn't make sense.  It doesn't do anything to MY spirit because I have complete control over that.

Edited by anatess2
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I'll need you to explain this to me.  Why exactly does the lack of an opening prayer "not make sense?" 

Isn't the decision to have or not have a prayer kind of arbitrary?

Is anyone able to point to any tangible evidence that having a prayer improves the quality of the meeting?  Or that not having it degrades the quality of the meeting?

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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

I'll need you to explain this to me.  Why exactly does the lack of an opening prayer "not make sense?" 

For the same reason that having an opening prayer makes sense.

 

Quote

Isn't the decision to have or not have a prayer kind of arbitrary?

Yes.  But it's there for a reason.  And it's not to "waste time".  Therefore, taking it out to "save time" does not make sense.

 

Quote

Is anyone able to point to any tangible evidence that having a prayer improves the quality of the meeting?  Or that not having it degrades the quality of the meeting?

If it doesn't, we wouldn't have had it in the first place.  We don't just do opening prayer because... well, I don't know for whatever else reason but to improve the quality of the meeting.  If that's not the reason, then tell me, why was it there?

Edited by anatess2
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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

For the same reason that having an opening prayer makes sense.

This doesn't actually answer any question.  This is equivalent to saying "The existence of the prayer is sufficient to justify its existence." Otherwise known as "but we've always done it this way."

Quote

Yes.  But it's there for a reason.  And it's not to "waste time".  Therefore, taking it out to "save time" does not make sense.

By this argument, you seem to be saying "the prayer was there not to 'waste time', but to 'not waste time.'" But you still haven't given any indication of what the prayer did that was 'not wasting time', other than it being there.

Quote

If it doesn't, we wouldn't have had it in the first place.  We don't just do opening prayer because... well, I don't know for whatever else reason but to improve the quality of the meeting.  If that's not the reason, then tell me, why was it there?

This is very circular logic. In fact, almost tautological.  "The purpose of the opening prayer is to be the opening prayer."

 

I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place. Which is kind of my point. If we don't understand why we are doing something, it should be fair to evaluate its purpose and utility.  If continuing to do that thing doesn't add value, and discontinuing it doesn't take away value, then the only compelling reason to continue with it is "because I want to*."

Other than that, I don't see a reason for angst over the discontinuation of opening prayers.  I'm perfectly willing to sympathize with anyone who misses or mourns for the practice.  People are allowed to feel. But I don't think it's fair to cry "what's the purpose of this change" when we can't even articulate any benefits for continuing the practice.

 

* by the way, this is a perfectly acceptable reason to continue opening prayers.   

 

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30 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

This doesn't actually answer any question.  This is equivalent to saying "The existence of the prayer is sufficient to justify its existence." Otherwise known as "but we've always done it this way."

By this argument, you seem to be saying "the prayer was there not to 'waste time', but to 'not waste time.'" But you still haven't given any indication of what the prayer did that was 'not wasting time', other than it being there.

This is very circular logic. In fact, almost tautological.  "The purpose of the opening prayer is to be the opening prayer."

Uhmm... really?  You completely missed the point I was trying to make that... it wasn't just there for no other reason than that it was just there???

 

 

30 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

 

 

I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place. Which is kind of my point.  

Now THAT's the tragedy and why my point is going whoosh over your head.  Seriously, dude?  You don't know why there's such a thing as an opening prayer?

 

30 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

 

Other than that, I don't see a reason for angst over the discontinuation of opening prayers.  I'm perfectly willing to sympathize with anyone who misses or mourns for the practice.  People are allowed to feel. But I don't think it's fair to cry "what's the purpose of this change" when we can't even articulate any benefits for continuing the practice.

The OP has angst.  I don't.  But then, we didn't lose opening prayer in Primary.  And like I said, it's sad to me that you don't know why there's an opening prayer.

 

30 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

* by the way, this is a perfectly acceptable reason to continue opening prayers.   

And that's my point.  I don't find discontinuing opening prayer just to save time a an acceptable reason in light of the reason for it being there in the first place.

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Um, yeah...I missed your point.  It wasn't hard to miss, because you haven't made one yet.

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And that's my point.  I don't find discontinuing opening prayer just to save time a an acceptable reason in light of the reason for it being there in the first place.

it's the bolded part here that I would like for you to clarify.  And to put it in the specific context of the discussion:

With respect to an opening prayer in priesthood/relief society/sunday school meetings following the conclusion of Sacrament meeting, could you describe

  • what value is added by having an opening prayer?
  • what value is lost by not having an opening prayer?
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