Not opening priesthood with prayer

[wenglund]

For those interested, while I will say no more on the matter myself, I will let the Brethren speak for themselves sinse they need no defending whether some of us see the sense of what they say and do  or not. Here is their explanation for the changes to the Sunday Meeting Schedule and related Items: Changes Help Balance Gospel Instruction at Home and at Church

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

For those interested, while I will say no more on the matter myself, I will let the Brethren speak for themselves sinse they need no defending whether some of us see the sense of what they say and do  or not. Here is their explanation for the changes to the Sunday Meeting Schedule and related Items: Changes Help Balance Gospel Instruction at Home and at Church

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

What you linked does not state that Priesthood/RS and Sunday School should eliminate Opening Prayer and why.  

Once again, just because one doesn't make sense out of the changes doesn't mean one is attacking the Brethren for which they would need defending.   That's why we discuss, so we can hopefully find a reason that makes sense beyond "The Brethren says".  The Priesthood ban for blacks did not make sense.  It still doesn't.  It has been discussed ad naseum and books written about ad nauseum but it still does not make sense in light of the gospel beyond the "God says so" which is the only doctrinal reason available.  That doesn't mean that we are attacking the Prophets or God when we try to make sense out of the Priesthood ban. 

And this is why it is frustrating to me, Wade.  You respond to me like I'm one step out of the door of faithfulness.  It's insulting.

 

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

What you linked does not state that Priesthood/RS and Sunday School should eliminate Opening Prayer and why.  

Once again, just because one doesn't make sense out of the changes doesn't mean one is attacking the Brethren for which they would need defending.   That's why we discuss, so we can hopefully find a reason that makes sense beyond "The Brethren says".  The Priesthood ban for blacks did not make sense.  It still doesn't.  It has been discussed ad naseum and books written about ad nauseum but it still does not make sense in light of the gospel beyond the "God says so" which is the only doctrinal reason available.  That doesn't mean that we are attacking the Prophets or God when we try to make sense out of the Priesthood ban. 

And this is why it is frustrating to me, Wade.  You respond to me like I'm one step out of the door of faithfulness.  It's insulting.

 

By way of clarification and to disabuse false accusations, as usual, you are once again in error.  I wasn't defending the Brethren or the Church, nor did I assume you are close to apostasy. The thoughts never crossed my mind until you falsely assumed and expressed them.  These are figments of your irrational mind.

Rather, what I repeatedly intimated was that it is you, and not the Brethren or anyone else who wasn't making sense, particularly given your inability  to see the sense that was reasonably presented to you, and this also in light of a multitude of errors you  have made in this thread alone..  I have capitalized and bolded words to help you see through the blindness, but even that was repeatedly misunderstood.

And, I have attempted to address your concerns politely until you got snippy and condescending, and so I treated you in-kind.

In shorty, and reproving betimes, you have a glaring and seemingly intractable blind spot to your own intellectual limitations and propensity for mistakes. Your pride is getting in the way of productive discourse, and it causes you to mistakenly assume that the problem (including alleged "insults") is with others rather than yourself.

Again, do yourself and others a favor and get a self-introspective clue--though I won't hold my breath. Some people you just can't reach.

Aside from that, I am sure you. like many of us,  are a very intelligent, reasonable, faithful, spiritual, and lovely persons who ultimately wishes to do good and to progress and further the kingdom of God..

Now, for sure, that is the last I will say on the matter, let come what may.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 20, 2019 by wenglund

[JohnsonJones]

13 hours ago, wenglund said:

By way of clarification and to disabuse false accusations, as usual, you are once again in error.  I wasn't defending the Brethren or the Church, nor did I assume you are close to apostasy. The thoughts never crossed my mind until you falsely assumed and expressed them.  These are figments of your irrational mind.

Rather, what I repeatedly intimated was that it is you, and not the Brethren or anyone else who wasn't making sense, particularly given your inability  to see the sense that was reasonably presented to you, and this also in light of a multitude of errors you  have made in this thread alone..  I have capitalized and bolded words to help you see through the blindness, but even that was repeatedly misunderstood.

And, I have attempted to address your concerns politely until you got snippy and condescending, and so I treated you in-kind.

In shorty, and reproving betimes, you have a glaring and seemingly intractable blind spot to your own intellectual limitations and propensity for mistakes. Your pride is getting in the way of productive discourse, and it causes you to mistakenly assume that the problem (including alleged "insults") is with others rather than yourself.

Again, do yourself and others a favor and get a self-introspective clue--though I won't hold my breath. Some people you just can't reach.

Aside from that, I am sure you. like many of us,  are a very intelligent, reasonable, faithful, spiritual, and lovely persons who ultimately wishes to do good and to progress and further the kingdom of God..

Now, for sure, that is the last I will say on the matter, let come what may.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I actually think what she states makes sense.

I just don't feel the topic is of high enough priority to really comment all that much on it for myself personally speaking.

I can see why it may be concerning to others. 

I don't see that her concern has really been addressed in full. 

In addition, I may not care that much, but I can see that she and others may.

It is another reason I have not said much on this.  I do not have a satisfactory answer for her.  I really have nothing on it that would be a satisfactory answer to her question.  I feel she has a valid point.  It may not be one that all agree upon, but I see where she is coming from.  In that regard, I do not see that anyone has actually given her a satisfactory answer in regards to what the scriptures say doctrinally.  That's just a personal point of view.

The only thing I can say is to follow the prophet and our General Authorities (which it appears @anatess2 is already doing) and continue forward in the faith.  Keep going to church and hold to the rod, having faith that the Lord is leading us still.

Of course, my personal point of view is that for right now, I'm not too concerned about the situation and overall, does not concern me overly much.  That may not be the same for everyone, and as we see, at least one (and if there is one, there may be more) is concerned about it, at least to a little degree.

[anatess2]

 

17 hours ago, wenglund said:

By way of clarification and to disabuse false accusations, as usual, you are once again in error.  I wasn't defending the Brethren or the Church, nor did I assume you are close to apostasy. The thoughts never crossed my mind until you falsely assumed and expressed them.  These are figments of your irrational mind.

"figments of my irrational mind?".  Wow.  The insults just keep on coming, don't they?

If you didn't think I was attacking the Brethren then why would you say such things as  "the Church will continue to move forward" and " Brethren speak for themselves sinse (sic) they need no defending"?  

 

Quote

Rather, what I repeatedly intimated was that it is you, and not the Brethren or anyone else who wasn't making sense, particularly given your inability  to see the sense that was reasonably presented to you, and this also in light of a multitude of errors you  have made in this thread alone..  I have capitalized and bolded words to help you see through the blindness, but even that was repeatedly misunderstood.

So... because it doesn't make sense to me as nobody has given a reason why something so valuable would be eliminated just to save time - and even your capitalized and bolded words DO NOT explain why it would be eliminated other than "the Brethren says" and "Opening exercises" then I'm the one not making sense.  Is this how you approach all those seeking knowledge?  If they seek more knowledge beyond "the Brethren says" then they make no sense and are irrational?

 

Quote

And, I have attempted to address your concerns politely until you got snippy and condescending, and so I treated you in-kind.

Ohhh... so I was snippy and condescending... So let's see what I said:

"Wenglund, this is not about me.  This is simply an opinion on the lack of opening prayer that doesn't make sense.  This, of course, is not the first policy that the Brethren changed that doesn't make sense.  It's fine to say that it doesn't make sense.  It doesn't do anything to MY spirit because I have complete control over that."

That's what I said.  Copy pasted.  How is that snippy and condescending?  I for sure didn't intend it to be.  I hope that next time, if you think I was snippy and condescending... you can ask me, "anatess2, did you intend to be snippy and condescending because you sound like you are." then I can, at least, try to correct the tone if that wasn't what I was intending.  At least I get half a chance of getting a conversation going instead of being bewildered by the flurry of insults coming at me!

 

Quote

In shorty, and reproving betimes, you have a glaring and seemingly intractable blind spot to your own intellectual limitations and propensity for mistakes. Your pride is getting in the way of productive discourse, and it causes you to mistakenly assume that the problem (including alleged "insults") is with others rather than yourself.

Sigh.

 

Quote

Again, do yourself and others a favor and get a self-introspective clue--though I won't hold my breath. Some people you just can't reach.

I AM FILIPINO.  English is my THIRD LANGUAGE.  Your culture is different than mine.  I apologize for not being American and not getting whatever clue you want me to get.  <--- this entire line is said in a frustrated manner.  I really can't apologize for something I have no idea what I did.  But I apologize that it came out "snippy and condescending".  I am frustrated by the no-answers and the insults.

 

Quote

Aside from that, I am sure you. like many of us,  are a very intelligent, reasonable, faithful, spiritual, and lovely persons who ultimately wishes to do good and to progress and further the kingdom of God..

Thank God for small mercies.  At least there's some sugar in all that vinegar.

 

Quote

Now, for sure, that is the last I will say on the matter, let come what may.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You don't throw insults like that and then flee the crime scene just because you ended with sugar.  Well, you can, of course as this is a free internet.

Edited February 21, 2019 by anatess2

[Rob Osborn]

I think one question that needs to be asked is - does not having an opening prayer for PH and RS take away from the spirit? Is it a negative to have a prayer?

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I actually think what she states makes sense.

I just don't feel the topic is of high enough priority to really comment all that much on it for myself personally speaking.

I can see why it may be concerning to others. 

I don't see that her concern has really been addressed in full. 

In addition, I may not care that much, but I can see that she and others may.

It is another reason I have not said much on this.  I do not have a satisfactory answer for her.  I really have nothing on it that would be a satisfactory answer to her question.  I feel she has a valid point.  It may not be one that all agree upon, but I see where she is coming from.  In that regard, I do not see that anyone has actually given her a satisfactory answer in regards to what the scriptures say doctrinally.  That's just a personal point of view.

The only thing I can say is to follow the prophet and our General Authorities (which it appears @anatess2 is already doing) and continue forward in the faith.  Keep going to church and hold to the rod, having faith that the Lord is leading us still.

Of course, my personal point of view is that for right now, I'm not too concerned about the situation and overall, does not concern me overly much.  That may not be the same for everyone, and as we see, at least one (and if there is one, there may be more) is concerned about it, at least to a little degree.

It's a concern for the OP's brother which is the reason the thread was started.

I wouldn't call it a concern for me.  It simply is something that doesn't make sense to me that I'm trying to make sense out of.  It's just my personality that when something rankles in my brain, I go at it like a dog with a bone until it stops rankling.  It doesn't have to finally make sense for my brain to stop rankling though.  My brain finds peace in all kinds of answers including, "the Brethren says so and that's all you have to know" if that answer is the truth of the matter.

So, you know how everybody has different ways they hear the still, small voice of the Spirit?  Some describe it as a burning of the bossom.  Some describe it as a comforting presence.  The way I would describe the still, small voice is cool water on my brain. 

 

[Traveler]

It is my opinion that if someone feels a need for prayer - they should offer to provide it.  I personally think there is something a little strange and off with someone that thinks there should be a prayer - just not by them.  I have decided that good and right and that I will always offer my services whenever someone asks for a volunteer to give a prayer.  It is interesting how often I end up saying both the opening and closing prayers at church and who realizes what happened and feels it necessary to say something to me about it.  😉  I have also made it clear to the bishopric that if a scheduled prayer for any reason does not show - that they can call on me.

I also carry a prepared talk in case one is necessary at a moments notice and I try to be prepared for lessons as well - These are things I as taught when serving a mission

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You don't throw insults like that and then flee the crime scene just because you ended with sugar.  Well, you can, of course as this is a free internet.

I take back everything I have said, apologize for what you see as insults, and freely admit that I was wrong, and if you would like, I will delete all my posts on this thread.

Given that with each exchange, with a person I generally respect, things only got worse when the intent was that they get better, I figured it best that I stop digging the hole deeper. 

Again, I apologize, and hope all the best for you with the prayer situation and anything else the Lord see fit. That, truly and for sure is the last I will say on the matter.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[let’s roll]

Since the opening prayer in the second hour is gone and isn’t likely to return, I invite anyone who has an issue with that to pray for peace of mind regarding the change.  

That seems a better choice than debating why it’s been discontinued.

[askandanswer]

Now that is has been suggested by the Lord's representatives that prayers at the start of Priesthood and Sunday School might not be needed, will a prayer given at that time be less efficacious than it would have previously been?  

[MarginOfError]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Now that is has been suggested by the Lord's representatives that prayers at the start of Priesthood and Sunday School might not be needed, will a prayer given at that time be less efficacious than it would have previously been?  

Clearly, we need randomized, double blinded, controlled trials to answer these important questions.

[anatess2]

I forgot to tell everyone...

I checked and our ward still has Opening Prayer on Second Hour - Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society.

[MarginOfError]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I forgot to tell everyone...

I checked and our ward still has Opening Prayer on Second Hour - Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society.

APOSTATES!

[NightSG]

On 2/15/2019 at 10:23 AM, MarginOfError said:

I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place.

1 Thessalonians 5:17-18

Ephesians 6:18

Edited March 3, 2019 by NightSG