Not opening priesthood with prayer


gclayjr
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19 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Um, yeah...I missed your point.  It wasn't hard to miss, because you haven't made one yet.

it's the bolded part here that I would like for you to clarify.  And to put it in the specific context of the discussion:

With respect to an opening prayer in priesthood/relief society/sunday school meetings following the conclusion of Sacrament meeting, could you describe

  • what value is added by having an opening prayer?
  • what value is lost by not having an opening prayer?

I just completely find this unbelievable.  I'm sure that if you think about this some more you'll realize you know exactly why we have opening prayer in Priesthood/RS/SS.

So, I'm going to pose the question to you.  I'm sure you have been asked to say the opening prayer in Priesthood/SS before.  When you were asked and you said those prayers, did you not know what value your prayer added to the meeting and what purpose it served?  Did you not know what you were supposed to pray for?

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Wenglund, this is not about me.  This is simply an opinion on the lack of opening prayer that doesn't make sense.  This, of course, is not the first policy that the Brethren changed that doesn't make sense.  It's fine to say that it doesn't make sense.  It doesn't do anything to MY spirit because I have complete control over that.

Actually, it doesn't make sense to YOU, whereas it does make sense to others of us (as I painstakingly explained earlier in the thread) as well as the Brethren. Likewise, other policies the Brethren have changed don't make sense to YOU, whereas it does to them and others of us.

So, it very much is about YOU. It is YOUR opinion.

Have YOU considered the distinct probability that YOU and YOUR opinion are the one not making sense rather than the Brethren?

For my part, I was graciously attempting to help YOU to not only see the sense, but if that failed, provide YOU with a way to adapt while YOU don't make sense, or until YOU come to see the sense.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

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On 2/13/2019 at 10:33 AM, gclayjr said:

I recently had a conversation with my brother where he expressed anxiety over the fact that Priesthood doesn't start with a prayer.  Sacrament meeting does end with a prayer. In the past,  all meetings start and end with prayers. I told him that I have faith that this comes from the Lord, and therefor is OK. But I couldn't give him either historical examples of meetings that don't start with prayers, or a further explanation other than trust the Lord's anointed in regards to administrative or procedural things, which he does accept. However, It would be nice if there was any better explanation I could give him.

Any Ideas?

Hi, George. I do not have any sort of official explanation. I think of it like this: We open our Sunday services with a prayer in the sacrament meeting. We then close the sacrament meeting (but not the overall services) with prayer and proceed to Sunday School/RS-EQ and continue with our communal worship, closing those meetings (and our overall services) with prayer.

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On 2/15/2019 at 1:26 PM, wenglund said:

Actually, it doesn't make sense to YOU, whereas it does make sense to others of us (as I painstakingly explained earlier in the thread) as well as the Brethren. Likewise, other policies the Brethren have changed don't make sense to YOU, whereas it does to them and others of us.

So, it very much is about YOU. It is YOUR opinion.

Have YOU considered the distinct probability that YOU and YOUR opinion are the one not making sense rather than the Brethren?

For my part, I was graciously attempting to help YOU to not only see the sense, but if that failed, provide YOU with a way to adapt while YOU don't make sense, or until YOU come to see the sense.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

My dear Wade.  Of course it doesn't make sense TO ME.  This is a discussion forum, not a university lecture.  Everything I write is my own opinion unless I state facts.

Now, since it made sense to YOU, it would have been nice for you to explain to us poor, unenlightened folks what sense it makes. 

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On 2/15/2019 at 1:30 PM, Vort said:

Hi, George. I do not have any sort of official explanation. I think of it like this: We open our Sunday services with a prayer in the sacrament meeting. We then close the sacrament meeting (but not the overall services) with prayer and proceed to Sunday School/RS-EQ and continue with our communal worship, closing those meetings (and our overall services) with prayer.

Vort, it would be great if you can answer these questions:

1.)  Why do we not open SS/RS-EQ with prayer anymore? 

2.)  Why do we close Sacrament Meeting with prayer instead of leaving the closing prayer to the end of overall services?

Yes, saying, because the Brethren said so if there's no other answer is an okay answer.

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41 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Vort, it would be great if you can answer these questions:

1.)  Why do we not open SS/RS-EQ with prayer anymore? 

2.)  Why do we close Sacrament Meeting with prayer instead of leaving the closing prayer to the end of overall services?

Yes, saying, because the Brethren said so if there's no other answer is an okay answer.

1) Because the Brethren said so. :) That's really the only authoritative answer I can give.

Why did they say this? Clearly, limited time is a part of it. But since an opening prayer should take no more than maybe a minute, there's probably more to it. In any case, the Brethren have obviously concluded that a second-hour opening prayer is unnecessary. Beyond that, it's guesswork.

2) Basically the same answer as above. To me, it makes sense to close the sacrament meeting with prayer before going on. I'm less confused about closing the sacrament meeting with prayer than not opening the second-hour meeting with prayer.

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41 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My dear Wade.  Of course it doesn't make sense TO ME.  This is a discussion forum, not a university lecture.  Everything I write is my own opinion unless I state facts.

Now, since it made sense to YOU, it would have been nice for you to explain to us poor, unenlightened folks what sense it makes. 

Lovely, lovely anatess2, it was already evident to me that this is a discussion board. Nevertheless, in our DISCUSSION on this BOARD, YOU incorrectly asserted that my gracious advice to YOU regarding YOUR nonsensical OPINION about the elimination of opening exercises wasn't about YOU. Unfortunately, it seems that YOU still are having trouble recognizing that YOU were not only incorrect about the Brethren not making sense, but YOU were also incorrect that it wasn't about YOU. I seriously hope that it won't take a UNIVERSITY LECTURE for YOU to finally get it. ;)

As for me explaining to YOU how it makes sense, it may not be a matter of YOU being UNENLIGHTENED, but rather YOU lacking in either reading comprehension or recall, since I EXPLAINED the sense of it earlier in the thread, and also told YOU that I had EXPLAINED it it earlier in the thread.

Please understand that the all capped words aren't me shouting, but as a way of providing emphases to facilitate YOUR comprehension.  

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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58 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Lovely, lovely anatess2, it was already evident to me that this is a discussion board. Nevertheless, in our DISCUSSION on this BOARD, YOU incorrectly asserted that my gracious advice to YOU regarding YOUR nonsensical OPINION about the elimination of opening exercises wasn't about YOU. Unfortunately, it seems that YOU still are having trouble recognizing that YOU were not only incorrect about the Brethren not making sense, but YOU were also incorrect that it wasn't about YOU. I seriously hope that it won't take a UNIVERSITY LECTURE for YOU to finally get it. ;)  

No idea what you're saying here, Wade.  You were mixing my OPINION with my EMOTION.  When I said, "this is not about ME", it was in response to you referencing how I FEEL about the lack of opening prayer (anxious or otherwise, which would be about ME) rather than WHY there is no opening prayer (reason for it being eliminated - which is not about ME).   I made an OPINION that not having opening prayer doesn't make sense.

Now, if you still don't get that, I don't know how else to explain it.

Quote

As for me explaining to YOU how it makes sense, it may not be a matter of YOU being UNENLIGHTENED, but rather YOU lacking in either reading comprehension or recall, since I EXPLAINED the sense of it earlier in the thread, and also told YOU that I had EXPLAINED it it earlier in the thread. 

If you're referencing to the Opening Exercises being eliminated which eliminated the Opening Prayer, that doesn't make sense.  Because Opening Prayer can stand alone without Opening Exercises.  As a matter of fact, I don't even consider Opening Prayer part of Opening Exercises.

 

Quote

Please understand that the all capped words aren't me shouting, but as a way of providing emphases to facilitate YOUR comprehension.   

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I use all caps interchangeably with bold.  There's no point in "shouting" on written format.  You raise your voice in oral communication in the same manner you use bold in written communication - to emphasize words.  Shouting, is different from emphasizing words (resonant) as it has the connotation of negative emotions... like you would say a mother is shouting at her son but you wouldn't say a Baptist preacher is shouting at his congregation.  In written format, the negative emotion is expressed through the choice of words and not the size of letters.  And because I'm Filipino with English not my first language, a lot of times people read a negative emotion into my choice of words that I did not intend.  The all-caps shouting internet "rule" is for all-capsing every single word of your paragraph and not just certain words on a sentence.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

No idea what you're saying here, Wade. 

Upon that we can agree, particularly given the incorrect assumption you jumped to here:

Quote

You were mixing my OPINION with my EMOTION.  When I said, "this is not about ME", it was in response to you referencing how I FEEL about the lack of opening prayer (anxious or otherwise, which would be about ME) rather than WHY there is no opening prayer (reason for it being eliminated - which is not about ME).   I made an OPINION that not having opening prayer doesn't make sense.Now, if you still don't get that, I don't know how else to explain it.

No, I didn't reference how you "feel."  I didn't mention the word, nor did I speak of your emotions, particularly given that I don't recall you saying anything to me about your emotions. I used the word "problematic," and dealt solely with your  opinion in each of my responses. I believe you may have me confused with MOE or another participant on this thread. So, yet again, it isn't me who isn't getting it. It isn't me or the Brethren who isn't making sense. It is you.

As for the rest of your post, it is treading too far into the realm of silly quibbles for my taste, if not to the point that it would take a university lecture to unravel the Gordian knot of your  many misunderstandings.  So, I will leave each to their own, and wish you only the best 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Let's recap this conversation a minute here:

anatess: This is simply an opinion on the lack of opening prayer that doesn't make sense. This, of course, is not the first policy that the Brethren changed that doesn't make sense.

MOE: I'll need you to explain this to me. Why exactly does the lack of an opening prayer "not make sense?"

anatess: For the same reason that having an opening prayer makes sense....[the opening prayer is] there for a reason.  And it's not to "waste time".  Therefore, taking it out to "save time" does not make sense.

MOE: Is anyone able to point to any tangible evidence that having a prayer improves the quality of the meeting? Or that not having it degrades the quality of the meeting?

anatess: If it doesn't, we wouldn't have had it in the first place. We don't just do opening prayer because... well, I don't know for whatever else reason but to improve the quality of the meeting. If that's not the reason, then tell me, why was it there?

MOE: I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place. Which is kind of my point. If we don't understand why we are doing something, it should be fair to evaluate its purpose and utility. If continuing to do that thing doesn't add value, and discontinuing it doesn't take away value, then the only compelling reason to continue with it is "because I want to*."

anatess: Now THAT's the tragedy and why my point is going whoosh over your head. Seriously, dude? You don't know why there's such a thing as an opening prayer? ... I don't find discontinuing opening prayer just to save time a an acceptable reason in light of the reason for it being there in the first place.

MOE: I would like for you to clarify [that]. And to put it in the specific context of the discussion:

  • what value is added by having an opening prayer?
  • what value is lost by not having an opening prayer?

anatess: I just completely find this unbelievable. I'm sure that if you think about this some more you'll realize you know exactly why we have opening prayer in Priesthood/RS/SS. 

So, I'm going to pose the question to you. I'm sure you have been asked to say the opening prayer in Priesthood/SS before. When you were asked and you said those prayers, did you not know what value your prayer added to the meeting and what purpose it served? Did you not know what you were supposed to pray for?

MOE: avoidance. nice 

anatess: Can't answer the question, I see.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Okay, so let's clarify something here.  have answered your question already.  Recall, I've said already "Isn't the decision to have or not have a prayer kind of arbitrary?" You even agreed with that initially;  "Yes. But it's there for a reason." (but not really, because if it has a reason, it isn't truly arbitrary)

I have also already said "I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place. " And specifically in the context of this topic, let me clarify.  I can't tell you why we had opening prayers in priesthood and relief society given that we'd literally had another prayer just ten minutes before. 

I also not said anything of the nature that the opening prayer is a "waste of time."  I've asked you to describe the value added by the opening prayer, or the value lost by not having it.  You've refused to answer that question, instead offering the vague

20 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I can't possibly find any sense from someone who doesn't even know what sense it is supposed to make.

Which is a stunningly self-congratulatory answer.  I commend you for your grand superiority. Now answer the freaking question.

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On 2/18/2019 at 4:56 PM, wenglund said:

Upon that we can agree, particularly given the incorrect assumption you jumped to here:

No, I didn't reference how you "feel."  I didn't mention the word, nor did I speak of your emotions, particularly given that I don't recall you saying anything to me about your emotions. I used the word "problematic," and dealt solely with your  opinion in each of my responses. I believe you may have me confused with MOE or another participant on this thread. So, yet again, it isn't me who isn't getting it. It isn't me or the Brethren who isn't making sense. It is you.

This response is what I'm talking about.  See the bolded.

On 2/14/2019 at 5:03 PM, wenglund said:

Perhaps it is different for you than it is for me. I tend to bring the Spirit with me from Sacrament meeting. So, the so-called "axing" isn't the least problematic for me. If it still is for you, maybe you could work on bringing the Spirit with you and/or say a silent prayer yourself to evoke the Spirit in the classroom  . I don't wish to see your spiritual experience diminished because of what the Brethren were inspired to do for the rest of us.

Than ks, -Wade Englund-

That is completely outside of trying to understand the reason for that change (not about me) into how the change is affecting me (feelings - spiritual experience diminished).  Giving me advice on how to bring the spirit into a classroom (which I do not have any problems with, especially as I'm in Primary and we have Opening Prayer) does not address the issue of the change still not making sense.

 

Quote

As for the rest of your post, it is treading too far into the realm of silly quibbles for my taste, if not to the point that it would take a university lecture to unravel the Gordian knot of your  many misunderstandings.  So, I will leave each to their own, and wish you only the best 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I made a simple comment that the lack of opening prayer doesn't make sense and hoped somebody would provide information that I might have missed so it makes sense... and you providing no other response but - it makes sense to me, so you should just pray so you won't be spiritually lacking.  And then you call me a quibbler.

Whatever, dude. 

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On 2/19/2019 at 8:35 AM, MarginOfError said:

Let's recap this conversation a minute here:

anatess: This is simply an opinion on the lack of opening prayer that doesn't make sense. This, of course, is not the first policy that the Brethren changed that doesn't make sense.

MOE: I'll need you to explain this to me. Why exactly does the lack of an opening prayer "not make sense?"

anatess: For the same reason that having an opening prayer makes sense....[the opening prayer is] there for a reason.  And it's not to "waste time".  Therefore, taking it out to "save time" does not make sense.

MOE: Is anyone able to point to any tangible evidence that having a prayer improves the quality of the meeting? Or that not having it degrades the quality of the meeting?

anatess: If it doesn't, we wouldn't have had it in the first place. We don't just do opening prayer because... well, I don't know for whatever else reason but to improve the quality of the meeting. If that's not the reason, then tell me, why was it there?

MOE: I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place. Which is kind of my point. If we don't understand why we are doing something, it should be fair to evaluate its purpose and utility. If continuing to do that thing doesn't add value, and discontinuing it doesn't take away value, then the only compelling reason to continue with it is "because I want to*."

anatess: Now THAT's the tragedy and why my point is going whoosh over your head. Seriously, dude? You don't know why there's such a thing as an opening prayer? ... I don't find discontinuing opening prayer just to save time a an acceptable reason in light of the reason for it being there in the first place.

MOE: I would like for you to clarify [that]. And to put it in the specific context of the discussion:

  • what value is added by having an opening prayer?
  • what value is lost by not having an opening prayer?

anatess: I just completely find this unbelievable. I'm sure that if you think about this some more you'll realize you know exactly why we have opening prayer in Priesthood/RS/SS. 

So, I'm going to pose the question to you. I'm sure you have been asked to say the opening prayer in Priesthood/SS before. When you were asked and you said those prayers, did you not know what value your prayer added to the meeting and what purpose it served? Did you not know what you were supposed to pray for?

MOE: avoidance. nice 

anatess: Can't answer the question, I see.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Okay, so let's clarify something here.  have answered your question already.  Recall, I've said already "Isn't the decision to have or not have a prayer kind of arbitrary?" You even agreed with that initially;  "Yes. But it's there for a reason." (but not really, because if it has a reason, it isn't truly arbitrary)

I have also already said "I honestly can't tell you why all of the opening prayers were there in the first place. " And specifically in the context of this topic, let me clarify.  I can't tell you why we had opening prayers in priesthood and relief society given that we'd literally had another prayer just ten minutes before. 

I also not said anything of the nature that the opening prayer is a "waste of time."  I've asked you to describe the value added by the opening prayer, or the value lost by not having it.  You've refused to answer that question, instead offering the vague

Which is a stunningly self-congratulatory answer.  I commend you for your grand superiority. Now answer the freaking question.

TL;DR.

Here's the summary:

anatess:  Taking out the Opening Prayer doesn't make sense.

MOE:  There's no evidence that Opening Prayer improves the quality of the meeting.

anatess2:  I don't believe that for a second.

MOE:  How does Opening Prayer improve the quality of the meeting?

anatess2:  I don't believe that you do not know that the Opening Prayer adds value to a meeting. 

In my mind, it's either you're just trolling me or you really haven't the foggiest idea how the Opening Prayer adds value to the meeting.  So, to cover both bases, I threw the question back at you - When you give the Opening Prayer during SS/Priesthood (as I am sure everybody who has been in Church longer than a year would have), do you not know what value that Prayer has for the meeting?

Now, if you can't answer that question, then there's no conversation.  Because, of course, if you don't even know that the Opening Prayer has value, then how can you answer my question of how removing Opening Prayer makes sense?  In that case, removing the Opening Prayer for you makes sense because you think it doesn't improve the quality of the meeting.  I don't believe that for a second, so I'm back to square one - removing Opening Prayer still makes no sense.

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19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not the one who claimed that an Opening Prayer does not add to the quality of a meeting.

But you are not specifically saying what value it does have. In your opinion, what value does opening prayer bring to a meeting?

M.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

In my mind, it's either you're just trolling me or you really haven't the foggiest idea how the Opening Prayer adds value to the meeting. 

And I've told you multiple times now that I don't know.  By all means, instruct me.

Quote

So, to cover both bases, I threw the question back at you - When you give the Opening Prayer during SS/Priesthood (as I am sure everybody who has been in Church longer than a year would have), do you not know what value that Prayer has for the meeting?

Again, I don't know.  Maybe I haven't been clear.  I DON'T KNOW!! (Does that help?)

Quote

Now, if you can't answer that question, then there's no conversation.  Because, of course, if you don't even know that the Opening Prayer has value, then how can you answer my question of how removing Opening Prayer makes sense?  In that case, removing the Opening Prayer for you makes sense because you think it doesn't improve the quality of the meeting.  I don't believe that for a second, so I'm back to square one - removing Opening Prayer still makes no sense.

I've never attempted to explain how removing the opening prayer makes sense.  I have only posited that if we can't identify the benefit of keeping it, or the harm in removing it, then it is fair to ask whether it is really necessary.  I've asked, repeatedly, for an explanation for why it doesn't make sense.  Such an explanation has yet to be given by anyone, and in particular by you, who has specifically claimed that it has a purpose (a statement I have interpreted as equivalent to adding value.  I'd like to know what that value is).

31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not the one who claimed that an Opening Prayer does not add to the quality of a meeting.

I've not claimed this either.  See the big, red, bold, italic, underlined text above. So if you don't mind, I would really like to know what value the opening prayer adds to the meeting (or, conversely, what value is lost by not having it).

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50 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Again, I don't know.  Maybe I haven't been clear.  I DON'T KNOW!! (Does that help?)

Color me SHOCKED!

SHOCKED!

Opening Prayer is also called INVOCATION.  We invoke or call upon God for a petition or supplication.

Opening Prayer serves the following purposes:  1.)  To thank God for the opportunity to meet and any and all other blessings relevant to the meeting.  2.) To offer the entire meeting unto God's service.  3.)  To ask God for the guidance of the Holy Spirit (to bring everybody into cognizance of Spiritual promptings) and other needs relevant to the meeting - this is the supplication part.

These stated purposes that should be present in every Opening Prayer brings the entire meeting into a collective purpose.  It offers a shared "Vision and Mission statement" (if we are to use corporate terms) for the meeting asking God's guidance in it's passing.

This is the same for anything that we offer Opening Prayers for, be it Sacrament Meeting, Sunday School, Basketball Game... whatever.

The Closing Prayer serves a different purpose.  Closing Prayer is also called Benediction.  It's not a "Vision and Mission statement" anymore but a reinforcement and acknowledgement of the Vision and Mission accomplished by the meeting offering such into God's service and asking God's approval for the way the mission was accomplished.

So, you remove the Opening Prayer, you remove the collective prayer of supplication to God in offering the meeting to His service.  Can the same purpose be achieved through individual prayer?  Not really - you lose the shared Vision/Mission supplication as a fellowship and not just an individual.  So removing that supplication is a value reduction that doesn't make sense if the only reason it was removed is to save time.  I don't believe "saving time" is valuable enough to replace the value of invoking God's blessings in the meeting.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

That is completely outside of trying to understand the reason for that change (not about me) into how the change is affecting me (feelings - spiritual experience diminished).  Giving me advice on how to bring the spirit into a classroom (which I do not have any problems with, especially as I'm in Primary and we have Opening Prayer) does not address the issue of the change still not making sense.

Wrong. To my way of thinking , one's spiritual experience involves the mind as well as the heart, including one's opinion.

Quote

I made a simple comment that the lack of opening prayer doesn't make sense and hoped somebody would provide information that I might have missed so it makes sense... and you providing no other response but - it makes sense to me, so you should just pray so you won't be spiritually lacking.  And then you call me a quibbler.

Wrong again (at least you are consistent).

I posted this earlier in the thread (see the quote below) and pointed you to it several times

Quote

I don't recall ever starting priesthood class with prayer.

Granted, a prayer used to be offered during priesthood opening exercises,. However, we no longer have opening exercises. So, in terms of priesthood meetings, the only change is the elimination of opening exercises.

I suspect that opening exercises over the last half century or so is a hold-over from the time prior to the consolidated schedule, when morning meetings (priesthood/Relief Society and Sunday School) were separate from the afternoon meeting (Sacrament meeting), and because they were separate, it made sense to open the morning meetings with an opening exercise and prayer as well as the  afternoon. 

Even with the consolidated schedule, it was not uncommon for Wards to begin with priesthood, which likewise made opening exercises reasonable.

Now that Sunday meetings have been cut to two hours and standardized with Sacrament Meeting first, opening exercises no longer make sense--with the exception of primary, for its own reasons.

So, I don't see the problem. I hope this helps.

Now, whether you see the sense of it or not, a reasonable explanation was in fact given.

And, if you could get over yourself, and humbly open your mind to the distinct probability that it is you, and not the Brethren and most of the members, who has a problem making sense in this case (please note each of the many times where I have pointed out how your thinking has been in error on this thread alone), we would all be the better for it. 

Either way, this is the last I will say on the matter, dudette.  With all that has been reasonably said, it no longer matters whether YOU get it or not, the Church will continue to move forward. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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29 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Either way, this is the last I will say on the matter, dudette.  With all that has been reasonably said, it no longer matters whether YOU get it or not, the Church will continue to move forward. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And this is where our conversation got derailed.  You took my opinion on the Opening Prayer as an attack on the Brethren so you sought to defend The Church.  So, it doesn't matter to you whether it makes sense to me or not, all you wanted to do was defend The Church from imaginary attacks from its members seeking to stop the Church from "continuing to move forward".

Yes.  To each their own. 

Primary is designed the same way as Priesthood - you meet together then break up for classes.  We don't do opening prayer in Classes because we do Opening Prayer as a Group before Opening Exercises.  But there are times when our Primary was big enough that we break up for classes first then meet as a Group for Opening Exercises and Singing Time.  When this is done, we do Opening Prayer in the classes and not with the Opening Exercises.

I still don't understand why removing Opening Exercises causes the Opening Prayer to get removed.  

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