Mind Blowing or Expanding


wenglund
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As I study the scriptures, particularly using the Church's new home study method, and utilize the many resources for insights provided by the Church and its members, it has become increasingly apparent that the Son  out-Jews the Jews.

By this I mean that where the Jews are known for their double entendre and symbolism,  the words and deeds of the Son are oft packed with many layers of meaning and symbolism.

My desire for this thread is for participants to describe their favorite, and perhaps mind blowing multi-layered meaning and symbol-steeped passages of scripture..

This has the potential of being very interesting, at least to me, if not also develop our skills in coming to understand sacred writ after the manner of the Jews.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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I just came across, or rather had opened to my understanding,  a new favorite symbolism-rich passage.  Actually, it is the first part of the Gospels--particularly John, which covers the narrative of Jesus' time in mortality from his birth to his interaction with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well.  (I had initially intended to post this on the Come Follow Me study forum, but it doesn't fit a given lesson as structured on that forum, so I figured it would be appropriate posting it here.)

In addition to the multi-layers of symbolism for each of the individual events reported during the aforementioned time frame, it occurred to me that they, together, subtly teach sequentially, the Plan of Progression. Here is how--at least as I have come to see it:

The period from Christ's birth to his baptism represents the pre-existence, where

  • Jesus' birth symbolizes the birth of all of us as spirit children of the Father,
  • Jesus' teaching in the temple symbolizes the Heavenly Council where the Son goes about his Father's business and presents his Father's plan, 
  • Jesus growing in knowledge and  stature and favor with God prior to his mortal mission, symbolizes our growth as pre-mortal spirits preparatory for entering our own mortal missions , where we are enabled to  continued in growth  and so forth.
  • John's preparatory work and Jesus' baptism symbolize the creation--baptism is the means of bringing about a new creature or creation.

The period following Christ's baptism to the conversation at the well, represent mortality and the application of the Gospel on earth, where:

  • Jesus' journey into the wilderness to be tempted, is symbolic of each of us leaving heaven and descending to fallen earth, there to enter mortality and be tested.
  • Jesus' first public miracle of turning water to wine symbolizes the need for those of us who sin during mortality to undergo a transformation (from the old man of sin to the new man of righteousness), or in other words, it symbolizes the first principle of the Gospel--i.e. faith, in he who has the saving power to transform us.
  • Jesus clearing the temple symbolizes our repentance,  where sin is driven out and the temple of our bodies are made again a place for the Father, through His Spirit, to dwell,  and where the ordinances of salvation may again be rightly performed.
  • Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus symbolizes our being "born again" through baptism.
  • Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well symbolizes our receiving the  living waters of the Holy Ghost

The period from the clearing of the temple to the women at the well, also represents the afterlife and immortality, where:

  • Jesus' clearing of the temple symbolizes death, where the corruptible body is "driven out" or separated from the temple of the spirit body.
  • Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus symbolizes the resurrection, where the spirits of men are born again into glorified and eternal bodies.
  • and finally, Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well is symbolic of the living water of eternal life,.

Granted, it is possible that I may be reading too much into this. But, I don't think so. It seems to all fit rather nicely in my mind, and in a way that is quite moving, if not mind blowing.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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22 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'll be short for once.

My favorite is very long, but normally not taken in the context of double entendre and symbolism...whilst I think the entire thing can also be seen as such for a pattern of our day...

The Book of Mormon.

Yes, indeed, from beginning to end, the Book of Mormon speaks to the repeated cycle of humility and righteousness and prosperity to pride and evil and wars and destruction, which is  certainly indicative of the pattern and need for our continued repentance and enduring to the end.

More specific, though, this morning's reading for me was Ether Chapter 2, which impressed upon me the multi-layers of symbolism in the construction of the barge (one layer in relation to our own bodies) and the need for external light of non-earthly origin.

And, I am excited for tomorrows reading when I can bask in the symbolism-rich layers of the touch of Christ to the stones (of our hearts), thereby bringing  light into darkness.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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22 hours ago, wenglund said:

And, I am excited for tomorrows reading when I can bask in the symbolism-rich layers of the touch of Christ to the stones (of our hearts), thereby bringing  light into darkness.

In Ether 3, I think it significant that the brother of Jared went to the top of an exceedingly high mountain (Shelem).  Mountains are not only symbolic of temples, but also as a means of getting closer to God, in this case exceedingly close..

On the top of Shelem,  the brother of Jared presumably gathered material (rock), which he then molten into 16 "stones" (two for each of the eight vessels) that were made thereby "white and clear, and transparent as glass."

While on the top of Shelem, the brother of Jared prayed to the Lord. Among many miraculous things resulting therefrom, the Lord touched the stones and they became a source of light.

I take from this the symbolic meaning that prophets on earth, such as the brother of Jared,  gather men (rocks), and through the gospel they are changed (molten) to become new men (changed from rocks to stone) and made pure and righteous (white and clear). And the prophets pray over their flock, and eventually the hand of Christ the Lord touches them and they become a source of light as well.

Powerful.

What is your take on this and other symbolic passages of scripture?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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My favorite is still the wheat and the tares. Wheat is used to make bread and thus the bread of life as symbolic to Christ and the sacrament, or, life is in the wheat. We are the wheat. But, what's interesting is that in the Rexburg temple the wheat motif is symbolized throughout but only in the sealing or marriage room is the wheat motif blossomed and ready for harvest.

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I have heard of three symbolic interpretations for the story of the Good Samaritan.

1) The classic everyone is your neighbor

2) Christ is the Samaritan and we are the injured man. He is in the land where everyone hates him, he still stops to take care of them despite the hate. He heals us and pays our debt (Samaritan paying the inn keeper to take care of the wounds of the injured man) and promises to come again and pay any remaining debt (second coming and in the parable the Samaritan promises to return) 

3) The temple worker and the Jewish priest that ignored the injured man were actually doing right. Spiritual work is more important than saving one man from a physical death.

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21 minutes ago, Fether said:

3) The temple worker and the Jewish priest that ignored the injured man were actually doing right. Spiritual work is more important than saving one man from a physical death.

Yeah, that's probably what the Savior meant. 🙄

I have heard Latter-day Saints claim that we should stop doing missionary work because it just makes people mad and not like us. Instead, we should just do proxy work for the dead. That way, you see, everyone can get saved, with no muss or fuss.

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9 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I have a question for those participating so far (  @JohnsonJones, @Rob Osborn, @Fether, and @Vort), what and/or who is being symbolized when Isaac was being offered as a sacrifice? This, too, is one of my all time favorites. I ask because I recently heard a new twist on the symbolism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

We see it as a symbol of Christ's sacrifice. Maybe Abraham saw it as this, too, but I suspect not. At least not directly. I suspect Abraham saw it as divine mercy toward him and his son, and as symbolic of the divine mercy God extends in not destroying the sinner but instead of finding a way to spare him—which of course is precisely what the Savior is.

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5 hours ago, wenglund said:

I have a question for those participating so far (  @JohnsonJones, @Rob Osborn, @Fether, and @Vort), what and/or who is being symbolized when Isaac was being offered as a sacrifice? This, too, is one of my all time favorites. I ask because I recently heard a new twist on the symbolism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'd say there are multiple symbols with it.  Vort and Fether have mentioned the most recognized one that is generally seen. 

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23 hours ago, Fether said:

Christ... our innocent worldly loves comforts/loves... Our agency... 

 

probably others

 

23 hours ago, Vort said:

We see it as a symbol of Christ's sacrifice. Maybe Abraham saw it as this, too, but I suspect not. At least not directly. I suspect Abraham saw it as divine mercy toward him and his son, and as symbolic of the divine mercy God extends in not destroying the sinner but instead of finding a way to spare him—which of course is precisely what the Savior is.

 

17 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'd say there are multiple symbols with it.  Vort and Fether have mentioned the most recognized one that is generally seen. 

 

Excellent!   Here is something else to consider that is along the lines of the "sinner" that Vort mentioned:

According to Jeff Bradshaw and Matt Bowen, in their Interpreter article on "By the Blood are Ye Sanctified," an additional layer of symbolism, and one I hadn't heard or thought of before, is that Isaac represents us, the followers of Christ, the sons and daughters of God, or in other words all of mankind who are willing to obey and who wish to be "born again" or "born from above" and return to the Father--i.e. enter into the kingdom of heaven

They quote NIbley as saying,L "...Then the last thing is 'and by the blood ye are sanctified.'125 You can’t sanctify yourself but by completely giving up life in this world, which means suffering death, which means the shedding of blood. … [T]he shedding of blood is your final declaration that you are willing to give up this life for the other."

They then went on to suggest: "As we will discuss in more detail later on, the temple sacrifices of ancient Israel — which pointed back to Isaac’s arrested sacrifice and pointed forward to Jesus’ unarrested sacrifice — the people were to “see” their own arrested sacrifice and redemption, having been spared the shedding of their own blood through the atonement of Christ. "

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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15 minutes ago, wenglund said:

 

 

 

Excellent!   Here is something else to consider that is along the lines of the "sinner" that Vort mentioned:

According to Jeff Bradshaw and Matt Bowen, in their Interpreter article on "By the Blood are Ye Sanctified," an additional layer of symbolism, and one I hadn't heard of thought of before, is that Isaac represents us, the followers of Christ, the sons and daughters of God, or in other words all of mankind who are willing to obey and who wish to be "born again" or "born from above" and return to the Father--i.e. enter into the kingdom of heaven

They quote NIbley as saying,L "...Then the last thing is 'and by the blood ye are sanctified.'125 You can’t sanctify yourself but by completely giving up life in this world, which means suffering death, which means the shedding of blood. … [T]he shedding of blood is your final declaration that you are willing to give up this life for the other."

They then went on to suggest: "As we will discuss in more detail later on, the temple sacrifices of ancient Israel — which pointed back to Isaac’s arrested sacrifice and pointed forward to Jesus’ unarrested sacrifice — the people were to “see” their own arrested sacrifice and redemption, having been spared the shedding of their own blood through the atonement of Christ. "

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hum, interesting. I've personally always seen the only symbolism that Isaac was symbolic of the Savior. We bring to the alter a broken and contrite spirit. The alter for the payment of sin ultimately is only through the sacrifice of the Savior and his blood shed.

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1 Nephi 8 is filled with symbolism that is multi-layered. I at one point thought I had learned everything from this chapter. I decided to memorize the whole chapter, and while memorizing the whole chapter the Lord taught me six principles that were there. I think I have finally come to a full understanding of this chapter, but am probably wrong once again.

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On 2/15/2019 at 11:56 AM, wenglund said:

My desire for this thread is for participants to describe their favorite, and perhaps mind blowing multi-layered meaning and symbol-steeped passages of scripture..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I will begin by saying that the entire book of the Gospel of John is my "favorite, and perhaps mind blowing multi-layered meaning and symbol-steeped passages of scripture" - not just because of the rich symbolism but the most profound prophecies rich in symbolism of particularly concerning the "Restoration".  It would seem that the most prominent criticism of the restored Gospel (in particular doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) by those of religious nature are modeled through the opposition of the prominent Jews (Pharisees) towards the teaching of Jesus as witnessed by John.

Take for example; John 10:30-34 where the Jews intend to stone Jesus - not for his deeds but because he taught through doctrine deep in symbolism that a man can become a G-d - which is the most criticized and most misused and misunderstood doctrine of Christ and the restored church of Jesus Christ.

 

The Traveler

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14 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

1 Nephi 8 is filled with symbolism that is multi-layered. I at one point thought I had learned everything from this chapter. I decided to memorize the whole chapter, and while memorizing the whole chapter the Lord taught me six principles that were there. I think I have finally come to a full understanding of this chapter, but am probably wrong once again.

If you really want your mind blown - befriend a devout Muslim raised in Arabia (from geographically where that chapter was given) and let them explain what symbolism they understand from that particular chapter.

 

The Traveler

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In our Sunday school lesson today, my mind was provided with a correlation of scriptures that I had not previously connected. The scriptures are:

1) Doctrine and Covenants 93: 31-32

2) John 3: 19-21

3) The Parable of the Sower

Conversion is a process that happens through the principle of grace upon grace. Whenever "light" is introduced to us the Spirit of Christ (light of Christ) in us all will bear witness. This light will entice our intelligence to act for itself, or the "light" will be acted upon. In the Parable of the Sower we speak of four types of ground where "the word" (the seed -- Alma's symbolism I just correlated also from your other thread) will fall.

When this light enters our hearts we will nourish or reject it. Our actions will show our acceptance of "the seed" (the word made flesh). This is growing grace for grace, and one aspect that distinguishes the Savior from us. The Savior never rejected any truth, any way, any life that was given by the Father -- light. The question which we all know, where will we place the light, the seed, the word of life?

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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum, interesting. I've personally always seen the only symbolism that Isaac was symbolic of the Savior. We bring to the alter a broken and contrite spirit. The alter for the payment of sin ultimately is only through the sacrifice of the Savior and his blood shed.

I used to believe the same way until Jeff and Matt helped me to recognize the significance of Isaac's arrested sacrifice as contrasted with Christ's unarrested sacrifice. This means that Isaac only symbolized Christ up to a point, whereas he fully symbolizes those who are "born from above."

This means that Abraham, the angel, and the ram in the thicket, are each symbolic representations of Christ. Can you see why?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

1 Nephi 8 is filled with symbolism that is multi-layered. I at one point thought I had learned everything from this chapter. I decided to memorize the whole chapter, and while memorizing the whole chapter the Lord taught me six principles that were there. I think I have finally come to a full understanding of this chapter, but am probably wrong once again.

I would be interested to read the six principles if appropriate (I mention this because I understand that some things may be too sacred to share in a public forum).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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14 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I used to believe the same way until Jeff and Matt helped me to recognize the significance of Isaac's arrested sacrifice as contrasted with Christ's unarrested sacrifice. This means that Isaac only symbolized Christ up to a point, whereas he fully symbolizes those who are "born from above."

This means that Abraham, the angel, and the ram in the thicket, are each symbolic representations of Christ. Can you see why?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yeah I'm not sure about all that I just believe that the whole point of the sacrifice of the lamb was that it was unblemished, symbolic of cleanliness and sinless; purity. Our blood means nothing, does nothing, it's just death. Christ's blood has life in it.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah I'm not sure about all that I just believe that the whole point of the sacrifice of the lamb was that it was unblemished, symbolic of cleanliness and sinless; purity. Our blood means nothing, does nothing, it's just death. Christ's blood has life in it.

I see the law of sacrifice as applying not just to Christ, but also to those desiring to become like Christ--i.e. those who are born from above.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Humm, I guess I don't see it like that.

Perhaps the next time you attend an endowment session at the temple, you could pay close attention to which covenants YOU make in relation to which laws. It might change how you see it.

In preparation thereof, in addition to the article I linked to above, please check out this BYU Devotional talk by Monte J. Brough, on "Between Two Gardens: the Law of Sacrifice," as well as this Ensign article by Stephen Ricks: "The Law of Sacrifice."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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