Repentance and language


Traveler
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I would preface my remarks about language and repentance by making a vague reference to a recent discussion.  The person I was speaking to is bilingual in German and English.  He was born here in the US but was called to a mission in Germany and Austria.  Since his mission he has fulfilled many callings and worked extensively in Germany and eastern Europe.  I will share some of what I learned from him.

In the German language there are two words that we translate into English as “Repentance”.  I can speak some German but I am not fluent so I do not remember either of the two words – just how I understand them when translated into English. 

Both words have tradition in Germany.  The first comes from the Catholic tradition.  In essence it means to suffer or pay a price.  This word is much like our English word of “Repentance” that has root in penance or being inflicted with punishment as restitution for evil deeds.   This idea of penance or punishment is deeply rooted into our justice and penal system of inflicting punishment.  Indeed many see the consequence of sin as a consequence of inflicted punishment – some self-inflicted and some as forced infliction from some superior or universal karma (including G-d). 

The second word comes from the tradition of Martin Luther in Germany.  This word means to “Turn Around”.  This is indeed a different way to look at repentance and as I think about it there are elements of this concept in our Latter-day revelations and doctrines.  It is the idea of a change of heart and mind.

What is interesting, according to my friend and expert in German and English, that within the society of Latter-day Saints in Germany there seem to be division based mainly in the previous religious traditions someone came from to become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.    Both words are used in the Book of Mormon but it seem the word used has more to do with the tradition of the person influencing the German translation than any other factor.

And so my friend tells me that the tradition or background (Catholic or Lutheran) heavily influences how German Saints interpret the doctrine of repentance.  As I discussed this I can see the benefits and limitations of both concepts.  I have thought this and have concluded that there is still something missing in these two concepts of repentance.   The third concept is the idea of becoming better.

In the idea of repentance – I believe we must turn away from our sins – and in many cases suffer and make effort at restitution for the damage or loss we have caused ourselves and others.   But I am of the mind that we have not repented and made covenant for remission, payment or whatever to overcome sin – until we become (by covenant) a better, committed and disciplined person.

 

The Traveler

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I thought that this thread would prompt more ideas about repentance - since it has not; perhaps I can add another of my own thoughts.  As we often think of repentance we think of justifying ourselves before others.  With the idea that we have paid the price or taken the steps to move us past our mistakes.  But I wonder if the first step does not involve justifying ourselves externally - but rather justifying ourselves internally to ourselves.  In essence I am suggesting that no one can even start a repentance process without first becoming humble.  In short, not only is pride a sin all by itself - but pride prevents any possibility of repentance.

I have more thoughts about repentance and I do wonder about other's thoughts and willingness to discuss this - but then if there is no interest then there is no point.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I thought that this thread would prompt more ideas about repentance - since it has not; perhaps I can add another of my own thoughts.  As we often think of repentance we think of justifying ourselves before others.  With the idea that we have paid the price or taken the steps to move us past our mistakes.  But I wonder if the first step does not involve justifying ourselves externally - but rather justifying ourselves internally to ourselves.  In essence I am suggesting that no one can even start a repentance process without first becoming humble.  In short, not only is pride a sin all by itself - but pride prevents any possibility of repentance.

I have more thoughts about repentance and I do wonder about other's thoughts and willingness to discuss this - but then if there is no interest then there is no point.

 

The Traveler

 

On 2/16/2019 at 1:09 PM, Traveler said:

I would preface my remarks about language and repentance by making a vague reference to a recent discussion.  The person I was speaking to is bilingual in German and English.  He was born here in the US but was called to a mission in Germany and Austria.  Since his mission he has fulfilled many callings and worked extensively in Germany and eastern Europe.  I will share some of what I learned from him.

In the German language there are two words that we translate into English as “Repentance”.  I can speak some German but I am not fluent so I do not remember either of the two words – just how I understand them when translated into English. 

Both words have tradition in Germany.  The first comes from the Catholic tradition.  In essence it means to suffer or pay a price.  This word is much like our English word of “Repentance” that has root in penance or being inflicted with punishment as restitution for evil deeds.   This idea of penance or punishment is deeply rooted into our justice and penal system of inflicting punishment.  Indeed many see the consequence of sin as a consequence of inflicted punishment – some self-inflicted and some as forced infliction from some superior or universal karma (including G-d). 

The second word comes from the tradition of Martin Luther in Germany.  This word means to “Turn Around”.  This is indeed a different way to look at repentance and as I think about it there are elements of this concept in our Latter-day revelations and doctrines.  It is the idea of a change of heart and mind.

What is interesting, according to my friend and expert in German and English, that within the society of Latter-day Saints in Germany there seem to be division based mainly in the previous religious traditions someone came from to become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.    Both words are used in the Book of Mormon but it seem the word used has more to do with the tradition of the person influencing the German translation than any other factor.

And so my friend tells me that the tradition or background (Catholic or Lutheran) heavily influences how German Saints interpret the doctrine of repentance.  As I discussed this I can see the benefits and limitations of both concepts.  I have thought this and have concluded that there is still something missing in these two concepts of repentance.   The third concept is the idea of becoming better.

In the idea of repentance – I believe we must turn away from our sins – and in many cases suffer and make effort at restitution for the damage or loss we have caused ourselves and others.   But I am of the mind that we have not repented and made covenant for remission, payment or whatever to overcome sin – until we become (by covenant) a better, committed and disciplined person.

 

The Traveler

If after reading the Book of Mormon and listening to hundreds of General Conference addresses the German saints are divided into factions over the meaning of repentance, it demonstrates a stubborn thick-headedness for which there is no excuse.

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On 2/16/2019 at 11:09 AM, Traveler said:

Both words have tradition in Germany.  The first comes from the Catholic tradition.  In essence it means to suffer or pay a price.  This word is much like our English word of “Repentance” that has root in penance or being inflicted with punishment as restitution for evil deeds.   This idea of penance or punishment is deeply rooted into our justice and penal system of inflicting punishment.  Indeed many see the consequence of sin as a consequence of inflicted punishment – some self-inflicted and some as forced infliction from some superior or universal karma (including G-d). 

The second word comes from the tradition of Martin Luther in Germany.  This word means to “Turn Around”.  This is indeed a different way to look at repentance and as I think about it there are elements of this concept in our Latter-day revelations and doctrines.  It is the idea of a change of heart and mind.

Is there a reason it cant mean both--particularly given the remorse and recompense phase of the repentance process? 

Thanks, -Wade Engulnd-

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On 2/22/2019 at 8:37 PM, Jersey Boy said:

 

If after reading the Book of Mormon and listening to hundreds of General Conference addresses the German saints are divided into factions over the meaning of repentance, it demonstrates a stubborn thick-headedness for which there is no excuse.

Are you saying that having a difference of opinion is because both are stubborn thick-headed.  What I hoped to show is that your background and traditions can color our religious convictions and make it difficult to understand a different point of view.  A point of view that most likely is not as wrong as incomplete - see @wenglund 's post above.

 

The Traveler

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I am thinking I will add another observation.  Recently I was involved in a little accident - It was a little almost harmless neglect on my part - but the result was 7 stitches.  I believe I have learned something about repentance from this lesson of life of receiving a wound, needing help and going through the process of recovery.

To be honest the wound was not that big of a deal (or so I thought at first).  There was not much pain but there was blood.  I knew what to do - I stopped the bleeding and immediately recognized that I was going to need help.  I got some help and tried to take care of the wound - but such efforts failed and I realized that I needed an expert and someone assigned to help with such things.  So it was off to an emergency center.

At the emergency center a tourniquet was applied so that the wound could be treated without blood flowing.  After the tourniquet I was given two shots for pain and the shots were more painful than the wound.  But then the doctor began to clean out the wound - this part was likely painful but I was not feeling it.  It was deep and we could see bone.  And then came the stitches - not a lot, just 7.  After that the wound was dressed - mostly to protect the wound while it healed.  I was also given an antibiotic to help prevent infection and sent home to resume my life.

The first night and day after was very painful and inconvenient but I was resolved to not allow anything to make the wound worse.  I changed the dressing daily and changed my habits to accommodate any possibility of making the wound worse.  And then I waited for the healing to take place.  From time to time I have bumped my wound and there is an instant reminder that I am still healing but I am confident that soon the stitches will be removed and life will be back to normal - already I am back on the slopes skiing - but even skiing I am extra careful not to fall and hurt the wound - each day I am able to act more normal.

I think there are similarities to repentance and caring for my wound.  Sometimes we can take care of things on our own but sometimes we need to go to emergency (bishop) for help the get the healing process on track.  We need to protect and make special sure that we allow healing to take place.  There will be pain but pain can be helpful in letting us know what is tender and needs protection.  And just because we took care of the wound does not mean that repentance is over - we need to heal.  We need to continue care until the healing is done.  I am convinced that one reason repentance is so painful - is to help us remember that we do not want to repeat the mistake - I know I won't make the same mistake again.  It is not that the healing does not work - but because healing is a hassle but it is better than an infected wound.

 

The Traveler

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20 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I think there are similarities to repentance and caring for my wound.  Sometimes we can take care of things on our own but sometimes we need to go to emergency (bishop) for help the get the healing process on track.  We need to protect and make special sure that we allow healing to take place.  There will be pain but pain can be helpful in letting us know what is tender and needs protection.  And just because we took care of the wound does not mean that repentance is over - we need to heal.  We need to continue care until the healing is done.  I am convinced that one reason repentance is so painful - is to help us remember that we do not want to repeat the mistake - I know I won't make the same mistake again.  It is not that the healing does not work - but because healing is a hassle but it is better than an infected wound.

 

The Traveler

I like Elder Renlund's talk about choice, consequence and the learning process when he said; "

Our Heavenly Father’s goal in parenting is not to have His children do what is right; it is to have His children choose to do what is right and ultimately become like Him. If He simply wanted us to be obedient, He would use immediate rewards and punishments to influence our behaviors.

But God is not interested in His children just becoming trained and obedient “pets” who will not chew on His slippers in the celestial living room.3 No, God wants His children to grow up spiritually and join Him in the family business."

I think there are many examples of things in our lives that require repentance but will have no immediate negative or positive consequences necessarily.  If I repent, for example, of not reading my scriptures every day, there won't be some painful effect that I would necessarily link up with that omission to "help us remember that we do not want to repeat the mistake."  

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