The Heathen Nations and They That Knew No Law


Rob Osborn
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22 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I will give a brief synopsis of each verse how I interpret it. One thing of importance is that the verses do not collectively describe one group but several groups, some of which were ignorant or under no condemnation, while others were transgressors and in condemnation and judged by the law.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law.

This verse covers a myriad of people. It includes the heathen Nations who knew no law. It also includes the ignorant. It also includes the handicapped, mentally incapable, and small children who died before becoming truly accountable. This group is unique because they cannot be judged by law, they are under no condemnation of the law and thus repentance is not required of this group. Anyone who is not judged by the law is not nor cannot be condemned by the law. This is explained in Moroni 8:22

"22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing."

Verse 73-

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

This describes all of the wicked who have ever lived, such as those in Noah's day who rejected him and those through all ages who died within the law and thus were condemned by the law and sent to the spirit prison but then, after paying their penalty, repented and accepted the gospel and baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost and all other ordinances of the temple. This is a Stark contrast type of people as compared to those in verse 72 who needed no repentance. The big picture here is that this group, in the end, live according to godliness in the spirit world awaiting their resurrection.

Verse 74-

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

This can apply to both groups previously mentioned. The gospel is taught in both paradise (to those who died without law) and those in Spirit prison (those who died within the law and found to be condemned). No man can be saved in ignorance. 

Verse 75-

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

This group basically describes the righteous on this Earth, it can also describe some of us- you and I. We are honorable people who, through no real fault of our own, are blinded by the craftiness of man's devices and from time to time get caught up in such things as petty sins and transgressions such as swearing, viewing inappropriate material, etc. It also describes us in that we get caught up in the things of the world and see them as more important than being completely devoted to Christ. It represents us in not wanting to help others and make all alike. We like social and wealth structure too much. 

Verse 76-

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

This verse and those that follow describe the earth during the millennium. We receive more light and truth but not yet the fullness.

Verse 77-

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

This verse is unique in that it describes the glory of Christ. But pay attention- if this were after resurrection and judgment at the end of the millennium then it would describe Christ as having the glory of the fulness of the Father. At that point Christ goes no more out and has the same glory as the Father which is a fulness. So, the question must be asked- if this were at that point how could the terrestrial abide his fulness? They couldn't, and neither is Christ shedding some of his glory so that they could abide in his presence. No, this describes the millennium where we will live and reign with Christ as we are not yet ready for a fulness. And, because Christ hasn't yet to sit on his throne where he is crowned with the fulness we thus can abide in his presence. Much more could be said on this point but it suffices for now.

Verse 78-

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

Of course, during the millennium all those living on the earth will only have terrestrial bodies because they are quickened by the glory of the earth at that time which is quickened by the glory of Christ.

Verse 79-

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

This is a unique verse because it specifically refers to the saints- to you and I, all of the members of the church. To be valiant is to be perfect. None of us are perfect or "valiant". If we were we would immediately receive the crown which is a fulness. We are yet imperfect and still need learning and training. Thus happens during the millennium. Now, also remember, this group is not the same as those in either verse 72 or 73 as they received no testimony of Christ in the flesh through the ordinances of the gospel but received that testimony after death. 

For now that should suffice.

I would appreciate it if you could also provide the same kind of line by line interpretation of the following verses from D&C 88?

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C88)

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10 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

I would appreciate it if you could also provide the same kind of line by line interpretation of the following verses from D&C 88?

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C88)

The key is in verses 26 & 28. Who are the "righteous" and, what does it mean of "they who are of a Celestial spirit"? That is the key to understanding.

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4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

I would appreciate it if you could also provide the same kind of line by line interpretation of the following verses from D&C 88?

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C88)

Verse "21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom."

It mentions the "law of Christ". But what is the law of Christ? The law of Christ is the saving gospel which includes repentance, baptism, and other essential ordinances of the temple. No man is saved from hell without showing obedience to the law of Christ. Because the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are stages of the earth before the earth attains its celestial glory it is thus possible to come to earth and even live during the millennium without living the law of Christ. 

Verse 22- 24, 22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

Pretty straightforward here. We all are here in the telestial kingdom because we met the requirements or law to be here. During the millennium, which is the terrestrial kingdom, there will be another requirement to abide there. And so it is with the celestial, or final state of progression.

Verse "25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--"

This tells us the logic of what it takes to abide celestial law. It means to fill the measure of our creation and not transgress the law. Well, this is interesting because only Christ was able to live in this scenerio withou transgressing Gods commandments. It shows us that it is not possible for us, in mortality, to live and abide celestial law. But, thats why we are in the telestial kingdom right now so that we can learn to live within the law, line by line, precept by precept, until we can live and abide by celestial law. That wont happen for quite some time after this life is over. 

Verse "26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it."

This tells us some logic again. A body is quickened, or resurrected, only by the power which it is quickened with. Keep that in mind for the following verses. Now, about this part where the "righteous" inherit the earth. This slips back into the dichotomy of Christs gospel. And rightly so. Why? Because in the end, there will only be "righteous" and "wicked". This isnt our standard and definition but the Lords. All of the righteous inherit the earth. There wont be some "righteous" who go off on some other planet to inherit it. No, "all" the righteous will inherit the earth. So, we need to figure out who these "righteous" are; what makes them righteous. The scriptures speak of salvation only coming to the righteous. This salvation is the basic plan of salvation that speaks of being saved from the eternal hell. If one isnt "righteous" they are "wicked". There can be no other classification at that point. The righteous are called thst because of the repentance of all of their sins and obedience to the gospel. Christ says that he cleanses the world of all sin of those he saves. So, if all the saved are cleansed, it thus means they are "righteous" as no one can be saved if they are still in their sins and wicked.

Verses 27-28, 27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

The key here is thevphrase "They who are of a celestial spirit". What does this mean? This means those who live according to God in the spirit world. This means the "righteous". It also means they will go on to inherit celestial glory in the future. So why then, when speaking of these who are of a celestial spirit, be quickened or resurrected with different glories? Because the resurrection has already begun. Now, remember what I previoysly said about being quickened or resurrected by the glory of the kingdom? And what kingdom are we now in? The telestial. Therefore, all those who have thus been resurrected so far have only been resurrected by telestial glory. This doesnt mean thats all the glory they are eternally assigned to, no, it just means that the mother earth only has telestial glory and as such it can only quicken bodies with that power it abides by. At the beginning of the millennium it will be quickened by the terrestrial glory and likewise alk of the previously resurrected telestial bodies will be quickened to terrestrial glory. This process repeates at the end of the millennium to all of the righteous where their resurrected bodies will be quickened to celestial glory.

Verses 29-32, 29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

The key here is what I just explained. Of interest though, in verse 32 the wicked are resurrected but return to their own place suggesting that only the wicked will not abide on the earth.

 

This should suffice for now.

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On 2/21/2019 at 2:57 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Verse "21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom."

It mentions the "law of Christ". But what is the law of Christ? The law of Christ is the saving gospel which includes repentance, baptism, and other essential ordinances of the temple. No man is saved from hell without showing obedience to the law of Christ. Because the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are stages of the earth before the earth attains its celestial glory it is thus possible to come to earth and even live during the millennium without living the law of Christ. 

For the sake of clarity, I’m going to answer your explanations one point at a time.

D&C 88:27 is pointing to that glorious future day when those who are judged wortthy will rise from the grave with glorified celestial, terrestrial or telestial resurrected bodies, and then receive an inheritance in one of the many heavenly mansions of glory in the Kingdom of our God. Because this verse is speaking of the future day of heavenly inheritance and definitely not speaking of the present day of existence in this perilous fallen state, right out of the box your ideas don’t square with what’s being taught in this verse. Thie day of this life is not a day of glorious heavenly inheritance. Rather, this fallen existence is a preparatory state of difficult trials, with exposure to the refiner’s fire IN PREPARATION for the day when we will finally obtain our hoped for heavenly inheritance.

In order to make your iideas appear to be even remotely plausible, you have to offer up really strained interpretations of scripture that are completely out of psync with some of the long-established official doctrines of the Church.

The reason why you’ve fallen into this trap is because it appears you’ve missed the parts of the higher ordinances that plainly teach one cannot enter the telestial kingdom, and live by its laws, unless he has first been baptized, confirmed a member of the Church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. The other higher ordinances pertain to entry into the Terrestrial and Celestial kingdoms. Each heavenly kingdom has its own set of laws and ordinances (Think of how the three degrees of glory are presented in the Temple).

It’s also apparent you failed to realize that the people of this fallen world who are not living by the laws and ordinances pertaining to the telestial kingdom are actually existing in a fallen state of extreme jeopardy, an existence in which they are doomed to an eternal hell unless and until they are willing  to submit to the first principles and ordinances of the gospel that will qualify them to enter the telestial kingdom. This world is only a telestial kingdom for those who have accepted and live lby the first principles and ordinances that allow for entry into the telestial kingdom, 

So you are half-right. But unfortunately, in order to maintain your position of being half-right  you will also have to continue to be at variance with some of the most fundamental teachings of the Church. In other words, you will have to continue to live with the knowledge that you are propagating what every leader of the Church would condemn as false doctrine.

In my next response I will focus on verse 27’s reference to being sanctified by the law of Christ.

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5 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

For the sake of clarity, I’m going to answer your explanations one point at a time.

D&C 88:27 is pointing to that glorious future day when those who are judged wortthy will rise from the grave with glorified celestial, terrestrial or telestial resurrected bodies, and then receive an inheritance in one of the many heavenly mansions of glory in the Kingdom of our God. Because this verse is speaking of the future day of heavenly inheritance and definitely not speaking of the present day of existence in this perilous fallen state, right out of the box your ideas don’t square with what’s being taught in this verse. Thie day of this life is not a day of glorious heavenly inheritance. Rather, this fallen existence is a preparatory state of difficult trials, with exposure to the refiner’s fire IN PREPARATION for the day when we will finally obtain our hoped for heavenly inheritance.

In order to make your iideas appear to be even remotely plausible, you have to offer up really strained interpretations of scripture that are completely out of psync with some of the long-established official doctrines of the Church.

The reason why you’ve fallen into this trap is because it appears you’ve missed the parts of the higher ordinances that plainly teach one cannot enter the telestial kingdom, and live by its laws, unless he has first been baptized, confirmed a member of the Church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. The other higher ordinances pertain to entry into the Terrestrial and Celestial kingdoms. Each heavenly kingdom has its own set of laws and ordinances (Think of how the three degrees of glory are presented in the Temple).

It’s also apparent you failed to realize that the people of this fallen world who are not living by the laws and ordinances pertaining to the telestial kingdom are actually existing in a fallen state of extreme jeopardy, an existence in which they are doomed to an eternal hell unless and until they are willing  to submit to the first principles and ordinances of the gospel that will qualify them to enter the telestial kingdom. This world is only a telestial kingdom for those who have accepted and live lby the first principles and ordinances that allow for entry into the telestial kingdom, 

So you are half-right. But unfortunately, in order to maintain your position of being half-right  you will also have to continue to be at variance with some of the most fundamental teachings of the Church. In other words, you will have to continue to live with the knowledge that you are propagating what every leader of the Church would condemn as false doctrine.

In my next response I will focus on verse 27’s reference to being sanctified by the law of Christ.

Well, however we figure it, in the end there will only be this Earth the saved dwell on, that's it.

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7 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

For the sake of clarity, I’m going to answer your explanations one point at a time.

D&C 88:27 is pointing to that glorious future day when those who are judged wortthy will rise from the grave with glorified celestial, terrestrial or telestial resurrected bodies, and then receive an inheritance in one of the many heavenly mansions of glory in the Kingdom of our God. Because this verse is speaking of the future day of heavenly inheritance and definitely not speaking of the present day of existence in this perilous fallen state, right out of the box your ideas don’t square with what’s being taught in this verse. Thie day of this life is not a day of glorious heavenly inheritance. Rather, this fallen existence is a preparatory state of difficult trials, with exposure to the refiner’s fire IN PREPARATION for the day when we will finally obtain our hoped for heavenly inheritance.

In order to make your iideas appear to be even remotely plausible, you have to offer up really strained interpretations of scripture that are completely out of psync with some of the long-established official doctrines of the Church.

The reason why you’ve fallen into this trap is because it appears you’ve missed the parts of the higher ordinances that plainly teach one cannot enter the telestial kingdom, and live by its laws, unless he has first been baptized, confirmed a member of the Church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost. The other higher ordinances pertain to entry into the Terrestrial and Celestial kingdoms. Each heavenly kingdom has its own set of laws and ordinances (Think of how the three degrees of glory are presented in the Temple).

It’s also apparent you failed to realize that the people of this fallen world who are not living by the laws and ordinances pertaining to the telestial kingdom are actually existing in a fallen state of extreme jeopardy, an existence in which they are doomed to an eternal hell unless and until they are willing  to submit to the first principles and ordinances of the gospel that will qualify them to enter the telestial kingdom. This world is only a telestial kingdom for those who have accepted and live lby the first principles and ordinances that allow for entry into the telestial kingdom, 

So you are half-right. But unfortunately, in order to maintain your position of being half-right  you will also have to continue to be at variance with some of the most fundamental teachings of the Church. In other words, you will have to continue to live with the knowledge that you are propagating what every leader of the Church would condemn as false doctrine.

In my next response I will focus on verse 27’s reference to being sanctified by the law of Christ.

In @Rob Osborn 's defense, It can sometimes be confusing to distinguish the symbolic from the actual (i.e. the symbol, itself and that to which the symbol points).

For example, much of Israel through the ages may not have been aware that animal sacrifice was an ordinance that was symbolic and pointed in anticipation to the actual  and final atoning sacrifice of Christ. 

Even today, many Christians, and some LDS, may not be aware that baptism is also an ordinance that is symbolic and points, among several things,  in anticipation to the burial and raising up of the body through the resurrection. As Elder Oaks explains, when we are baptized and partake of the sacrament, :"we do not witness that we take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. We witness that we are willing to do so. (See D&C 20:77.) The fact that we only witness to our willingness suggests that something else must happen before we actually take that sacred name upon us in the most important sense." Baptism is symbolic and points to when we actually take upon us the name of Christ.

Being born of the water through baptism, and being born of the spirit through the Gift of the Holy Ghost, are both ordinances performed on earth and during mortality which are symbolic of the actual rebirth and quickening in heaven and unto immortality and eternal life. (see HERE)

Certain temple ordinances on earth are also symbolic and point to the actual coronation in heaven

Likewise, certain saints may be unaware that the earth, today, and those who dwell thereon, may rightly be viewed symbolically as telestial and terrestrial and celestial, though in truth they point to the actual kingdoms of the resurrection. (see the scriptures you referenced above.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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33 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Likewise, certain saints may be unaware that the earth, today, and those who dwell thereon, may rightly be viewed symbolically as telestial and terrestrial and celestial, though in truth they point to the actual kingdoms of the resurrection. (see the scriptures you referenced above.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Would like to bring up this one point.

If we are to just take the scriptures and endowment and leave all else out- opinions, interpretations, and other doctrines based on that interpretation, we really have pure doctrine regarding the kingdoms. 

To me, the endowment represents the clearest doctrine we have regarding the plan of salvation. We use the endowment to interpret scripture as it was given after the scriptures on the matter. Regarding symbolism, the endowment symbolizes man's journey from the pre-mortal, down to earth, into the millennium, and finally returning back to God. The endowment teaches us the meaning of the kingdoms, their placement, purpose, and duration. This Earth in it's present state, as taught there, is not symbolic of the telestial kingdom, no, it is actually explaining e are currently in "the telestial kingdom".

It's a small point but important.

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Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

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38 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

You have committed no sin by drinking or smoking (because you have not covenanted to abstain) and not having children is not a sin.

How you have sinned: is all those times you have spit in God's face.  All those times you worshipped your ego.  Lied.  Cheated.  Hurt your fellow man.  Etc.  You (like every other human being) are a horrible sinner in DESPERATE need of a Savior.  

 

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Would like to bring up this one point.

If we are to just take the scriptures and endowment and leave all else out- opinions, interpretations, and other doctrines based on that interpretation, we really have pure doctrine regarding the kingdoms. 

To me, the endowment represents the clearest doctrine we have regarding the plan of salvation. We use the endowment to interpret scripture as it was given after the scriptures on the matter. Regarding symbolism, the endowment symbolizes man's journey from the pre-mortal, down to earth, into the millennium, and finally returning back to God. The endowment teaches us the meaning of the kingdoms, their placement, purpose, and duration. This Earth in it's present state, as taught there, is not symbolic of the telestial kingdom, no, it is actually explaining e are currently in "the telestial kingdom".

It's a small point but important.

Like I said, some people are easily confused. Yes, we are actually and currently in "the telestial kingdom" on earth. Some of us are also actually and currently in the "terrestrial kingdom" on earth, while still others are actually and currently in the "celestial kingdom" on earth.

However, those kingdoms on earth are not the same as those in heaven. Those kingdoms that exist in mortality are not the same kingdoms of immortality.  Resurrected bodies and kingdoms are differentiated from the non-resurrected kingdoms.

However, as Paul explains in 1 Cor.15, while the bodies in the earthly kingdoms are not the same as the bodies in the heavenly kingdoms. the bodies (seeds) which are sown within the respective earthly kingdoms portend and symbolize respectively that which will be resurrected in the heavenly kingdoms. The seeds  sown unto the telestial kingdoms on earth will die and be resurrected unto the Telestial kingdom and glory of heaven, symbolized by the stars. The seeds sown unto the terrestrial kingdom on earth will die and be resurrected unto Terrestrial  kingdom and gory of heaven, symbolized by the moon. And, the seeds sown unto celestial kingdom on earth will die and be resurrected unto Celestial kingdom and glory of heaven.

In short, it is a seemingly small but significant point, don't conflate the earthly and mortal telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms with the heavenly resurrected Telestial, Terrestrial  and Celestial kingdoms.

The kingdoms in 1 Cor 15, and D&C 88, and D&C 76, are clearly ("pure doctrine") after death and pertain to the RESURRECTION. And, while the endowment does depicts these kingdoms as steps of descending and ascending through the plan of progression, nevertheless, as an ordinance, like other ordinances ON EARTH, it is symbolic and preparatory and anticipatory of what is to come in the afterlife of HEAVEN.--i.e. the RESURRECTION. 

You either get this, or you don't. If you don't, that is up to you, but it renders further discussion with you unproductive.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

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1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

Taking a somewhat different tack from  @Jane_Doe, I would say that it isn't our place to judge. That will be between you and the God you currently do'n't believe in. He will know your heart and deeds, and will judge you based on what light you have been given and whether you have chosen darkness  over that light. It is likely that you will receive in heaven or hell exactly like what you want on earth. If you want a godless and childless eternal existence, there is a kingdom prepared for you.

I don't know why you would want to settle for so little when there is so much possible to you, but that is the way of personal agency.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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4 hours ago, wenglund said:

Like I said, some people are easily confused. Yes, we are actually and currently in "the telestial kingdom" on earth. Some of us are also actually and currently in the "terrestrial kingdom" on earth, while still others are actually and currently in the "celestial kingdom" on earth.

However, those kingdoms on earth are not the same as those in heaven. Those kingdoms that exist in mortality are not the same kingdoms of immortality.  Resurrected bodies and kingdoms are differentiated from the non-resurrected kingdoms.

However, as Paul explains in 1 Cor.15, while the bodies in the earthly kingdoms are not the same as the bodies in the heavenly kingdoms. the bodies (seeds) which are sown within the respective earthly kingdoms portend and symbolize respectively that which will be resurrected in the heavenly kingdoms. The seeds  sown unto the telestial kingdoms on earth will die and be resurrected unto the Telestial kingdom and glory of heaven, symbolized by the stars. The seeds sown unto the terrestrial kingdom on earth will die and be resurrected unto Terrestrial  kingdom and gory of heaven, symbolized by the moon. And, the seeds sown unto celestial kingdom on earth will die and be resurrected unto Celestial kingdom and glory of heaven.

In short, it is a seemingly small but significant point, don't conflate the earthly and mortal telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms with the heavenly resurrected Telestial, Terrestrial  and Celestial kingdoms.

The kingdoms in 1 Cor 15, and D&C 88, and D&C 76, are clearly ("pure doctrine") after death and pertain to the RESURRECTION. And, while the endowment does depicts these kingdoms as steps of descending and ascending through the plan of progression, nevertheless, as an ordinance, like other ordinances ON EARTH, it is symbolic and preparatory and anticipatory of what is to come in the afterlife of HEAVEN.--i.e. the RESURRECTION. 

You either get this, or you don't. If you don't, that is up to you, but it renders further discussion with you unproductive.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

You are wrong about some here being currently in the terrestrial and some being in the Celestial kingdom right now on earth. No one can be in a kingdom other than the kingdom one is quickened by and the only quickening power right now on the earth is the telestial for all mankind. Let me ask you this- do you suppose that Christ is going to save those who are not "righteous" after resurrection and judgment? This answer is a key to this whole mystery.

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5 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

Well, if you remain in this predicament then you will find your place in hell eternally. In order to be saved from this eternal hell one must accept Christ through faith, repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, then follow on the path receiving other ordinances of salvation in the holy temple and showing obedience to them until you receive salvation.

Edited by Rob Osborn
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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are wrong about some here being currently in the terrestrial and some being in the Celestial kingdom right now on earth. No one can be in a kingdom other than the kingdom one is quickened by and the only quickening power right now on the earth is the telestial for all mankind.

Wrong.

Quote

Let me ask you this- do you suppose that Christ is going to save those who are not "righteous" after resurrection and judgment? This answer is a key to this whole mystery.

No. The key is you not getting what I have said. Until you do....All the best to you.

However, to answer your question, yes.

Thankis, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Wrong.

No. The key is you not getting what I have said. Until you do....All the best to you.

Thankis, -Wade Englund-

It's hard to get at what you are saying because you always want to shut down and walk away from the conversation.

The reason I asked about Christ not saving the wicked is critical to understanding my point. There are only righteous and wicked in the end. Christ had no power to save the wicked. Christ can only save the righteous. And what do the righteous inherit? This Earth. Now, this part about the "law of Christ" and how it ties in here. The law of Christ is the fulness of the gospel. It is the "doctrine" of Christ as found in his holy scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon.

It is only through obedience to the gospel (law of Christ) that one becomes "righteous". It is the only means possible in the end to be saved from hell. Our third article of faith reads-

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

It might as well read-

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the law of Christ.

We know this because the law of Christ contains all the laws and ordinances of the gospel. So, what is meant by being "saved" as it states? It means to be saved from the second death- the everlasting death that comes upon the wicked who get cast out into outer darkness.

Now, going back to section 88 we can better understand this section. All of the "righteous" inherit the earth as mentioned in verse 26. They inherit it because of their obedience to the gospel which is the "law of Christ".  Obedience to the law of Christ is the only means possible that man can be saved by. If one thus assumes the telestial and terrestrial are eternal kingdoms- separate world's of glory after resurrection, then it creates a paradox. Why? Because they would be saved without showing obedience to the gospel (law of Christ). This runs contrary to everything the Book of Mormon teaches which is supposed to the doctrine of the law of Christ. And accordingly, disobedience to the law of Christ gets you only one thing- damnation in hell. In order to understand section 88 one must place the context of the endowment in order to understand the telestial and terrestrial are not eternal worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. 

So, unless you can provide some other logic to say God will deliver souls eternally out of hell without obedience to Christ's gospel, then you must admit section 88 is not meant how you want it to. So, please entertain me on how you believe it's possible that man can be saved eternally from hell without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

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5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's hard to get at what you are saying because you always want to shut down and walk away from the conversation.

The reason I asked about Christ not saving the wicked is critical to understanding my point. There are only righteous and wicked in the end. Christ had no power to save the wicked. Christ can only save the righteous. And what do the righteous inherit? This Earth. Now, this part about the "law of Christ" and how it ties in here. The law of Christ is the fulness of the gospel. It is the "doctrine" of Christ as found in his holy scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon.

It is only through obedience to the gospel (law of Christ) that one becomes "righteous". It is the only means possible in the end to be saved from hell. Our third article of faith reads-

"3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

It might as well read-

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the law of Christ.

We know this because the law of Christ contains all the laws and ordinances of the gospel. So, what is meant by being "saved" as it states? It means to be saved from the second death- the everlasting death that comes upon the wicked who get cast out into outer darkness.

Now, going back to section 88 we can better understand this section. All of the "righteous" inherit the earth as mentioned in verse 26. They inherit it because of their obedience to the gospel which is the "law of Christ".  Obedience to the law of Christ is the only means possible that man can be saved by. If one thus assumes the telestial and terrestrial are eternal kingdoms- separate world's of glory after resurrection, then it creates a paradox. Why? Because they would be saved without showing obedience to the gospel (law of Christ). This runs contrary to everything the Book of Mormon teaches which is supposed to the doctrine of the law of Christ. And accordingly, disobedience to the law of Christ gets you only one thing- damnation in hell. In order to understand section 88 one must place the context of the endowment in order to understand the telestial and terrestrial are not eternal worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. 

So, unless you can provide some other logic to say God will deliver souls eternally out of hell without obedience to Christ's gospel, then you must admit section 88 is not meant how you want it to. So, please entertain me on how you believe it's possible that man can be saved eternally from hell without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

You completely missed the key.

Thanks, -wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Yes, which unwittingly illustrates that you keep miss the key, and perhaps you always will..Enough said.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The only thing I keep missing is your desire to address the points I bring up. You believe God will save the wicked, that there's a place in heaven for the unrighteous yet you can't provide any sound doctrine to back it up so you shut down. That's how I see it. Am I wrong?

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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The only thing I keep missing is your desire to address the points I bring up. You believe God will save the wicked, that there's a place in heaven for the unrighteous yet you can't provide any sound doctrine to back it up so you shut down. That's how I see it. Am I wrong?

From the perspective of a blind man, particularly a blind man who thinks he can see and see better than those with authoritative sight, invariably nobody has, nor can they show him a thing different than how he already "sees" it.  He can't "see" it any other way. So, no, in your own way you aren't wrong. How could you be?

However, when this becomes apparent to many of us who have interacted with you, the only civil thing to do is step away from the counterproductive exchanges and leave you to "see it" as you invariably will. 

Again, all the best to you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On 2/24/2019 at 1:09 AM, Madam_Mim said:

Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

This is a great question, and others @wenglund and @Jane_Doe answered very well. I will just seek to add some different thoughts and repeat some thoughts they have shared.

1) I would be hesitant to say that you sufficiently "know" the law. To know the law doesn't mean we are "aware" of the law. There are many people who are aware but do not know the law. This means you have received a spiritual witness and have either rejected or received that witness. This also doesn't mean we can choose to be ignorant either, as no one is saved in ignorance.

2) As final judgements are only with God, that judgement then will be determined when we stand before Christ and the Father. It won't be their "opinion" you will be judged by. It will be "truth" and our acceptance of it. Truth has a dual meaning here: 1) Our acceptance of God's beloved Son (the way, the truth, and life), and 2) Our acceptance of any "light" that we have been invited to receive.

3) God's mercy is much more in our favor than we think and give him credit for; however, scriptures make it very clear that mercy is not able to rob justice.

There are "divers" ways we can sin, which @Jane_Doe highlighted, which a person is able to be guilty of:

1) If we have fornicated, and have not repented then that is one thing we are guilty of

2) If we bore false witness against our neighbor

3) If we have received light and knowledge, have had spiritual witness of that light, and rejected it

Etc....

So to say a person has only been guilty of a small portion, well, that may not necessarily be accurate. We are accountable for any truth/light that we interact with that we either accept or reject, and that pattern will remain with us in the spirit world upon our death. That pattern for those in spirit prison will most likely already show if they will accept further light and knowledge from God. Our personalities and the spirit we list to obey doesn't change when we die. It will only be magnified in death.

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58 minutes ago, wenglund said:

From the perspective of a blind man, particularly a blind man who thinks he can see and see better than those with authoritative sight, invariably nobody has, nor can they show him a thing different than how he already "sees" it.  He can't "see" it any other way. So, no, in your own way you aren't wrong. How could you be?

However, when this becomes apparent to many of us who have interacted with you, the only civil thing to do is step away from the counterproductive exchanges and leave you to "see it" as you invariably will. 

Again, all the best to you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't see it that way at all. I'm asking from a logical standpoint. I'm asking how it's possible that there are wicked souls saved into heaven. You refuse to bring logic to that premise. Im really curious how you arrive at there being wicked souls saved from eternal hell. How is it?

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