The Heathen Nations and They That Knew No Law


Rob Osborn
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On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:09 AM, Madam_Mim said:

Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

Unlike what Rob says, I do NOT know what will happen to you.

We are NOT your judge.  There is only one individual that we believe is the Judge (and Jury) which would be Jesus Christ, our Lord and Master.  He is the Savior of the World and the Messiah of us all.  He knows your heart and your desires far better than any of us can or even think we may. 

Obviously, as I am a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I would encourage you to believe in God and in Jesus Christ, to be baptized into our church and to follow the commandments as we believe, but that is a choice that is up to each and every individual who finds out about it. 

We may be surprised at the last day at those who are saved and those who are not, where those we thought were the very elect turn out to be the opposite, and those we thought to be the very wrong to be those set far above and ahead of us. 

Thus, in answer to your question, I would deem that you may stand a better chance if you accepted Jesus Christ and lived the commandments he gave (one of which was to repent and be baptized), but in the end, I have NO IDEA what will happen to you.  As per my understanding of our belief, we cannot judge what will actually happen to you (personally, as an individual) as it is only the Lord's place to judge in that accord. 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't see it that way at all. I'm asking from a logical standpoint. I'm asking how it's possible that there are wicked souls saved into heaven. You refuse to bring logic to that premise. Im really curious how you arrive at there being wicked souls saved from eternal hell. How is it?

Of course you don't see it that way. You can't see it that way. Even though things have been logically shown you every which way from Sunday, you haven't and will never see them, and yet you blindly assume it is because people are refusing to show you.

Even more important, you will never get that you have a blind spot because you are convinced you see perfectly and better than people with authoritative sight. This is what is know as double blind (metaphorically speaking)

Around and around it has and will yet go until people recognize the futility of interacting with you and leave you to your own false and blind perceptions.

Goodbye not-so-Merry-go Round.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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17 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Of course you don't see it that way. You can't see it that way. Even though things have been logically shown you every which way from Sunday, you haven't and will never see them, and yet you blindly assume it is because people are refusing to show you.

Even more important, you will never get that you have a blind spot because you are convinced you see perfectly and better than people with authoritative sight. This is what is know as double blind (metaphorically speaking)

Around and around it has and will yet go until people recognize the futility of interacting with you and leave you to your own false and blind perceptions.

Goodbye not-so-Merry-go Round.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, you can offer no logical explanation then why there will be wicked souls (unrighteous) saved from the eternal hell after resurrection and judgment. It's okay if you don't know, I just thought perhaps you had a logical explanation. That's all.

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I think in general, we speak of salvation and glories kind of haphazardly not really thinking through the nuts and bolts of the principles involved and as such can't answer the real questions where the rubber meets the road. Our go to answer is along the lines of "we aren't to judge, God will" or, "so and so said so therefore it must be settled" and then folks move on in a state of ignorance.

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5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think in general, we speak of salvation and glories kind of haphazardly not really thinking through the nuts and bolts of the principles involved and as such can't answer the real questions where the rubber meets the road. Our go to answer is along the lines of "we aren't to judge, God will" or, "so and so said so therefore it must be settled" and then folks move on in a state of ignorance.

Ironically, this response gives evidence to @wenglund's responses, and why he isn't answering questions which have already been answered. I also wouldn't call people providing scripture and prophetic quotes (i.e. https://www.lds.org/topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng ) haphazardly thinking through something. That is odd even to define it in such a way.

But then again, seeing how many prophets would agree with what the majority of posters are specifying (as they are quoting and have quoted them), I don't think Russell M. Nelson is in a state of ignorance. That is simply my belief.

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Thanks for your replies! 

21 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Obviously, as I am a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I would encourage you to believe in God and in Jesus Christ, to be baptized into our church and to follow the commandments as we believe, but that is a choice that is up to each and every individual who finds out about it. 

Do you think to either believe or not believe in a God is a choice? 

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1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

Do you think to either believe or not believe in a God is a choice? 

This isn't a strict "yes" or "no".  

Faith is a gift from God.  He gives it to whomever seeks it.  A person can also choose to flat shut their ears and refuse to accept it.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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On 2/24/2019 at 1:09 AM, Madam_Mim said:

Just out of curiousity:

What would happen to me, according to your belief? I've read the Book of Mormon, am somewhat familiar with D&C and read some teachings from various prophets - so I know the law. But I don't believe in a god and therefore don't live my life according to the scriptures (of course I follow some of the "rules", like not to kill people, but I already did before reading the scriptures). 

I think the only things I'm "guilty" of - in your god's opinion - is drinking alcohol sometimes and smoking. Oh and I'm refusing to create an eternal family by not wanting any children. 

There is a concept - with which I agree - that we become what we work and sacrifice for.   I assume that you realize that drinking alcohol and smoking is not something to do to maintain and improve your health.  So I assume, that if you believe in justice - you should not expect to continue to live a healthy life and as your health fails, that you will realize that what is happening is not a random coincidence but rather exactly the consequence of your lifestyle choices.

It is my belief that G-d does exist and is the most brilliant and intelligent being in the universe and though he would prefer that we learn and behave intelligently - that freedom, liberty and individual choice is more important - and so you are allowed to learn and become - both in life and eternity - exactly what you  would be by your own choices.

But I would admonish you that nothing of intelligent value has ever been accomplished without discipline and sacrifice.  So what happens to you is what you would choose to happen to you.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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4 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

Thanks for your replies! 

Do you think to either believe or not believe in a God is a choice? 

Yes.

Our personal nature will affect our choice.

Our personal nurture will also affect our choice. Obviously those raised in a religious home will have different experiences than those raised in a non-religious home.

Ultimately, the decision to believe is a personal choice despite our nurture.

Edited by Anddenex
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6 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

Thanks for your replies! 

Do you think to either believe or not believe in a God is a choice? 

Yes, I do believe it is a choice.  The question, obviously, and it's the million dollar question (actually, probably more than that) is WHICH one and what religion to believe in?   That may be a little more complicated for one to choose among.  

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints my faith is in those beliefs typically represented by that same Church and as such so my belief follows.  Obviously there are BILLIONS that do not believe in the same manner. 

In my religion we believe one of the reasons we are on this earth IS to be able to choose for ourselves.  We each are accountable for those choices and we each have that freedom to make choices.  Even when forced by someone to do actions we may not want to, we still have our mind and can mentally choose what we think.  Thus, we are free to choose as we think, and by those choices and thoughts we are responsible. 

I do not feel that one would be forced to believe or not to believe.  Even if they see the heavens open and the Lord himself come down they can still choose to reject it and call it whatever they want.  Most don't see those types of things and instead, belief is due to their choice of what to believe...or, in some cases, to not believe in anything.

Even atheist make a choice to believe that their is NO deity.  It is their decision to pursue that belief.  The closest to a non-choice would probably be someone who just did not care and did not think about it.  With the prevalence in our society, however, even then they would need to make a conscious choice at times to avoid discussions or deflect conversation about the subject or deity or religion. 

There are many various reasons people will choose to believe or not believe.  Sometimes, those on opposite ends of the spectrum will have those choices based on the exact same evidence but interpret it entirely differently.  In the end, though, it boils down to the choice one makes of whether to believe one way or the other or in this religion or that, or in no religion at all.

So, yes, I believe it is a choice.  I do not believe that anyone will be forced to believe or not believe.  They may be forced to do certain actions at times of their life, but belief is something that is contained within the mind of the individual, and luckily, thus far, no one can force someone to think without at least some conscious choice in the matter at some point (even if it is early on) along the line.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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Wow, I knew this would get some interesting answers. Or maybe they are just so interesting to me because I feel differently about this. 

I don't think I made the choice to not believe in a deity. I simply haven't found any good reason/argument/evidence (yet?) to think there is a God, so I don't see how I could suddenly choose to believe, even if I wanted to. 

Oh.. sorry for getting off topic by the way. Next time I'll just start a new thread. Something like "atheist asks weird questions about your faith" and I'll just post in it whenever I think of something I'm curious about. 

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54 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Wow, I knew this would get some interesting answers. Or maybe they are just so interesting to me because I feel differently about this. 

I don't think I made the choice to not believe in a deity. I simply haven't found any good reason/argument/evidence (yet?) to think there is a God, so I don't see how I could suddenly choose to believe, even if I wanted to. 

Seeking is a big part of the process.   Being a philosophical person, I find that epistemology is a foundational thing to life, even if a lot of people don't formally pay attention to it.  

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1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

I don't think I made the choice to not believe in a deity. I simply haven't found any good reason/argument/evidence (yet?) to think there is a God, so I don't see how I could suddenly choose to believe, even if I wanted to. 

It makes sense for your beliefs to follow the evidence.  

However, choice is still a factor, particularly in relation to the evidence. 

  • You choose what will or wont influence your view on the evidence, and in relation thereto:
  • You choose which kind of evidence to which you are or aren't open.
  • You choose how to interpret the evidence
  • You choose how much weight to give this evidence or that
  • And, you choose the extent to which your mind  can or can't be changed.

Based on these choices, not a few people have moved from atheism to belief, or from belief to atheism, or back and forth in either direction, or sticking permanently with one or the other. 

In other words, it isn't as though "the evidence" disallows all but one reasonable conclusion, let alone valued conclusion.  

And, from my perspective, this is by design. God placed us in conditions where there is ample cause for doubt either way, though also the opportunity to come to a more sure knowledge of God's existence than were he always before our eyes.

As contradictory as it may seem, people can have reasonable cause to see the light better when placed in the dark.

If you are open to it, your disbelief can be changed. You get to choose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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3 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

Wow, I knew this would get some interesting answers. Or maybe they are just so interesting to me because I feel differently about this. 

I don't think I made the choice to not believe in a deity. I simply haven't found any good reason/argument/evidence (yet?) to think there is a God, so I don't see how I could suddenly choose to believe, even if I wanted to. 

Oh.. sorry for getting off topic by the way. Next time I'll just start a new thread. Something like "atheist asks weird questions about your faith" and I'll just post in it whenever I think of something I'm curious about. 

Let's take a moment and reverse your second paragraph.

I don't think I made a choice to believe in a deity. I simply haven't found any good reason/argument/evidence to think there isn't a God, so I don't see how I could suddenly choose to disbelieve, even if I wanted to. (I think though there is some irony in the original statement that first begins with "I don't think I made a choice" and ends with "how I could suddenly choose." This ultimately then states I am choosing to be an atheist, but haven't received enough evidence to tell me to "choose" otherwise)

Choice is presented before us any time we experience opposing views. Your choice is simply to continue to believe as you do (that is a choice, not a state). You are atheist because you choose to be atheist. The "reason/argument/evidence" becomes irrelevant to having a choice. You have made a "choice" to remain where you are, because the reasons/arguments/evidence do not persuade you to believe "(yet?)."

Or a new thread that simply states "Atheist asks questions about your faith." You can leave the "weird" out.

 

Edited by Anddenex
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