The Heathen Nations and They That Knew No Law

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Nothing to reconcile.

Because the way I understand these verses is that if one is under the law it's because it is given them to know by the prophets. Whether they thus reject it or not doesn't matter, if they have it given them they are thus within the law, there is no ignorance and thus by rejecting it they stand condemned having transgressed the law by not following it.

[Anddenex]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Because the way I understand these verses is that if one is under the law it's because it is given them to know by the prophets. Whether they thus reject it or not doesn't matter, if they have it given them they are thus within the law, there is no ignorance and thus by rejecting it they stand condemned having transgressed the law by not following it.

 

[wenglund]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

What are those two key points?

The one's I mentioned. (i.e those that are at "odds with your current point of view regarding salvation and the three kingdoms.") Obviously!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

23 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

 

Given them means preached to such as Samuel the Lamanite upon the wall.

[Rob Osborn]

22 minutes ago, wenglund said:

The one's I mentioned. (i.e those that are at "odds with your current point of view regarding salvation and the three kingdoms.") Obviously!

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

?

[wenglund]

27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

?

Since you repeatedly asked about this after noting it is a tangent, let me respond Socraticaly by asking:

Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the three degrees of glory mentioned in D&C 76 are "after the judgement" (i.e. post resurrection)? 

Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that people are "saved" and are "heirs of salvation", and will bow their knees post-judgement (post resurrection)  in the telestial, and terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? In other words, do you understand that there are multiple conotations of the word "saved" and "salvation"?

Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are the "future life" (not to be confused with the symolism of this current life), and  "destiny," and "completion" for some people, and  that they will never see the celestial kingdom of God? 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 19, 2019 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Since you repeatedly asked about this after noting it is a tangent, let me respond Socraticaly by asking:

Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the three degrees of glory mentioned in D&C 76 are "after the judgement" (i.e. post resurrection)? 

Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that people are "saved" and are "heirs of salvation", and will bow their knees post-judgement (post resurrection)  in the telestial, and terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? In other words, do you understand that there are multiple conotations of the word "saved" and "salvation"?

Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are the "future life" (not to be confused with the symolism of this current life), and  "destiny," and "completion" for some people, and  that they will never see the celestial kingdom of God? 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

There's really a lot going on in section 76. It was given in response to the verse-

John 5:29

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Of which was given to them, meaning the same thing, using synonyms-

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust

Because John 5:29 is the same as that seen in the Book of Mormon, for instance-

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation- (Mosiah 16:11)

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began. (3rd Nephi 26:5)

Thus we know that John 5:29 and D&C 76:17 are synonymous, they mean the same exact thing, just worded differently. Thus the term "resurrection of life" is synonymous with "resurrection of the just" just as the phrase "resurrection of damnation" is synonymous with the phrase "resurrection of the unjust". And, because the Book of Mormon extrapolates what damnation means- "being delivered up to the devil" we thus can know that only the just, or those resurrected unto eternal life are saved from the devil which is damnation-.

That much must be understood, otherwise it's not possible to understand section 76. So then to answer your questions-

1."Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the three degrees of glory mentioned in D&C 76 are "after the judgement"?

I believe Joseph received a vision showing the continued duration of man's progress so that he could come forth in the resurrection of eternal life. It's the subtle way the angel or Spirit is showing Joseph how it's not possible to be saved from hell if one doesn't come forth in the resurrection unto eternal life, or in other words- the resurrection of the just. "Just" because they are "justified" in and through Christ of the complete forgiveness of sin and justified unto receiving eternal life.

2. "Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that people are "saved" and are "heirs of salvation", and will bow their knees post-judgement (post resurrection)  in the telestial, and terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? In other words, do you understand that there are multiple conotations of the word "saved" and "salvation"?

"Saved" and "salvation" only mean one thing in discussions on the plan of salvation. Being "saved" means to be saved from the consequences of sin which would otherwise confine him or her to the eternal hell. Salvation means to be saved physically and spiritually unto eternal life. The two terms have no other meaning in scripture when the plan of salvation is discussed.

3. "Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are the "future life" (not to be confused with the symolism of this current life), and  "destiny," and "completion" for some people, and  that they will never see the celestial kingdom of God?"

I can't see where this life or place we currently are in is a "symbol" for the telestial kingdom when in fact we are told we are in the very kingdom itself. If we know that we are not yet completed now we can extrapolate that the telestial kingdom is not a final destination but rather the means to the destination.

[wenglund]

45 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

There's really a lot going on in section 76. It was given in response to the verse-

John 5:29

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Of which was given to them, meaning the same thing, using synonyms-

17 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust

Because John 5:29 is the same as that seen in the Book of Mormon, for instance-

11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation- (Mosiah 16:11)

5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began. (3rd Nephi 26:5)

Thus we know that John 5:29 and D&C 76:17 are synonymous, they mean the same exact thing, just worded differently. Thus the term "resurrection of life" is synonymous with "resurrection of the just" just as the phrase "resurrection of damnation" is synonymous with the phrase "resurrection of the unjust". And, because the Book of Mormon extrapolates what damnation means- "being delivered up to the devil" we thus can know that only the just, or those resurrected unto eternal life are saved from the devil which is damnation-.

That much must be understood, otherwise it's not possible to understand section 76. So then to answer your questions-

1."Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the three degrees of glory mentioned in D&C 76 are "after the judgement"?

I believe Joseph received a vision showing the continued duration of man's progress so that he could come forth in the resurrection of eternal life. It's the subtle way the angel or Spirit is showing Joseph how it's not possible to be saved from hell if one doesn't come forth in the resurrection unto eternal life, or in other words- the resurrection of the just. "Just" because they are "justified" in and through Christ of the complete forgiveness of sin and justified unto receiving eternal life.

2. "Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that people are "saved" and are "heirs of salvation", and will bow their knees post-judgement (post resurrection)  in the telestial, and terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms? In other words, do you understand that there are multiple conotations of the word "saved" and "salvation"?

"Saved" and "salvation" only mean one thing in discussions on the plan of salvation. Being "saved" means to be saved from the consequences of sin which would otherwise confine him or her to the eternal hell. Salvation means to be saved physically and spiritually unto eternal life. The two terms have no other meaning in scripture when the plan of salvation is discussed.

3. "Do you believe, as Joseph intimated, that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are the "future life" (not to be confused with the symolism of this current life), and  "destiny," and "completion" for some people, and  that they will never see the celestial kingdom of God?"

I can't see where this life or place we currently are in is a "symbol" for the telestial kingdom when in fact we are told we are in the very kingdom itself. If we know that we are not yet completed now we can extrapolate that the telestial kingdom is not a final destination but rather the means to the destination.

There is a reason you didn't directly answer, but verbosely and strenuously evaded my questions, and this is because were you to directly and simply answer yes or no,  would be to evince  that you are currently at odds, and the several ways you are at odds, with what Joseph Smith wrote. Either way, we both know where you are at odds- And, that will suffice.

Now, back to the topic.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

31 minutes ago, wenglund said:

There is a reason you didn't directly answer, but verbosely and strenuously evaded my questions, and this is because were you to directly and simply answer yes or no,  would be to evince  that you are currently at odds, and the several ways you are at odds, with what Joseph Smith wrote. Either way, we both know where you are at odds- And, that will suffice.

Now, back to the topic.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I did directly answer each of your three questions. A follow up set of questions-

Which resurrection do you believe the Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial receive? The resurrection of life or the resurrection of damnation?

[wenglund]

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I did directly answer each of your three questions. A follow up set of questions-

Which resurrection do you believe the Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial receive? The resurrection of life or the resurrection of damnation?

See? You are either pitifully dishonest with yourself, or you are incapable of correctly comprehend that you in no way directly answered my question, which makes it abundantly clear to those who are capable of comprehending, that it is not only pointless to try and assist you with a hand up in light and knowledge, but it is counterproductive, a waste of time.

Bye wall.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

See? You are either pitifully dishonest with yourself, or you are incapable of correctly comprehend that you in no way directly answered my question, which makes it abundantly clear to those who are capable of comprehending, that it is not only pointless to try and assist you with a hand up in light and knowledge, but it is counterproductive, a waste of time.

Bye wall.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Please just answer the question I put forth. I gave you the courtesy of answering the questions you asked for. So please be respectful and answer mine. I don't mean any hard will, I'm just curious what your personal belief is in regards to who you think is part of the resurrection of life/just and who is part of the resurrection of damnation/unjust.

[wenglund]

44 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Please just answer the question I put forth. I gave you the courtesy of answering the questions you asked for. So please be respectful and answer mine. I don't mean any hard will, I'm just curious what your personal belief is in regards to who you think is part of the resurrection of life/just and who is part of the resurrection of damnation/unjust.

I will repay your alleged courtesy by politely and graciously answering, "bye." No more time wasted.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JohnsonJones]

Another way to look a it.

We do Temple work.  All those who did not have the chance to receive it in this life, but receive it in the next and would have received it with all their hearts will receive the same reward as those who receive it in this life and are faithful.

These are those who died and did not know the Law.  They were probably located in Heathen nations where they never learned the Law of the Lord.

On the otherhand are those who do not believe in the Lord.  They have learned about the Church and it's ordinances.  They have chosen to remain with their own religions.  They do not practice the Law of the Lord, but practice their own law.  Their lives are without the Law of the Lord and thus they have made their choices in this life.

That's not necessarily how it is, but it is way to look at it.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

I will repay your alleged courtesy by politely and graciously answering, "bye." No more time wasted.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's fine, but realize this-, you wanted to change the topic, delve off on a tangent, but then when it came to the simple nuts and bolts decide you don't really want a discussion. Not sure if you what your angle is but please don't change the topic again and expect to have dialogue if it's only going to be one sided.

Regardless, the reason I asked you that question is because no one can satisfactorily answer it. You see, it's not logical that a terrestrial and telestial heir would be resurrected in the resurrection unto damnation to be delivered to the devil and yet on the other hand only Celestial heirs come forth in the resurrection unto eternal life. Many thus will intentionally change the meaning of the scriptures to account for this. There is no bait here, just the truth. People just aren't willing to accept the truth as it stands.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Another way to look a it.

We do Temple work.  All those who did not have the chance to receive it in this life, but receive it in the next and would have received it with all their hearts will receive the same reward as those who receive it in this life and are faithful.

These are those who died and did not know the Law.  They were probably located in Heathen nations where they never learned the Law of the Lord.

On the otherhand are those who do not believe in the Lord.  They have learned about the Church and it's ordinances.  They have chosen to remain with their own religions.  They do not practice the Law of the Lord, but practice their own law.  Their lives are without the Law of the Lord and thus they have made their choices in this life.

That's not necessarily how it is, but it is way to look at it.

I'm curious- how is it possible that someone can know the law of the Lord and yet live "without the law"? To me, personally, it's not possible to be outside of the law and it's jurisdiction- the justice aspect, if one has it given to them. They would fall within the justice of the law. This is what ancient Book of Mormon prophets meant when they preached unto the wicked so that their sins would be answered on their heads and not the prophets.

[JohnsonJones]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm curious- how is it possible that someone can know the law of the Lord and yet live "without the law"? To me, personally, it's not possible to be outside of the law and it's jurisdiction- the justice aspect, if one has it given to them. They would fall within the justice of the law. This is what ancient Book of Mormon prophets meant when they preached unto the wicked so that their sins would be answered on their heads and not the prophets.

As I said, it's one way to look at it, not the only way.

I suppose a parallel could be utilized.  There are those who have no idea what the US Laws are.  They are ignorant of them.  If they had the chance to know them and to also experience the freedoms of the US, they may choose to live here.

There are others who are very aware of the Laws and freedoms of the United States.  They choose to live outside the United States, without the law of the US being applied to them. 

They do not heed our laws (and don't need to as they live elsewhere), but at the same time, they also are not guaranteed the same rights and privileges that a US citizen may possess both within our nation and without.

Edited February 19, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

As I said, it's one way to look at it, not the only way.

I suppose a parallel could be utilized.  There are those who have no idea what the US Laws are.  They are ignorant of them.  If they had the chance to know them and to also experience the freedoms of the US, they may choose to live here.

There are others who are very aware of the Laws and freedoms of the United States.  They choose to live outside the United States, without the law of the US being applied to them. 

They do not heed our laws (and don't need to as they live elsewhere), but at the same time, they also are not guaranteed the same rights and privileges that a US citizen may possess both within our nation and without.

Humm...I can see what you are saying but not sure it can apply. In order to be within the law or know the law all one has to do is have it preached and explained to them. It's not possible that one can remain outside the law or die without law once it is preached to them and understood by them. If it is preached to them and they choose to reject it they do so in transgression. Transgression can only come by being within the bounds of the law.

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

But does the phrase "heathen Nations" refer to a judged separate group of "rebels" or to an entire population of people's who just do not know Christ? I would beg that "heathen Nations" refers to the masses of Nations throughout time who knew not God and thus children born into this predicament were born into that classification as the "heathen".

I believe you are mixing and confusing symbolic references.   In particular the symbolic reference in scripture to the scattering of Israel among the gentile and heathen nations (apostasy) from where they will be gathered in the harvest or time of restoration.  

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Humm...I can see what you are saying but not sure it can apply. In order to be within the law or know the law all one has to do is have it preached and explained to them. It's not possible that one can remain outside the law or die without law once it is preached to them and understood by them. If it is preached to them and they choose to reject it they do so in transgression. Transgression can only come by being within the bounds of the law.

I believe you have left out many critical and necessary elements or principles of the Gospel of Christ that go beyond what appears to be what you are thinking of as "Hearing".

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe you are mixing and confusing symbolic references.   In particular the symbolic reference in scripture to the scattering of Israel among the gentile and heathen nations (apostasy) from where they will be gathered in the harvest or time of restoration.  

 

The Traveler

Expound please.

[Anddenex]

13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Given them means preached to such as Samuel the Lamanite upon the wall.

Samuel the Lamanite was preaching to a Nephite civilization that already had the law, they were already within the law as Nephi was preaching among the saints, warning and calling them to repentance.

We are talking about people who know of, but are without the law, not within the law.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, Anddenex said:

Samuel the Lamanite was preaching to a Nephite civilization that already had the law, they were already within the law as Nephi was preaching among the saints, warning and calling them to repentance.

We are talking about people who know of, but are without the law, not within the law.

Okay, so, another example- the son's of Mosiah going to preach the gospel to those who were unaware or ignorant of the law.

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so, another example- the son's of Mosiah going to preach the gospel to those who were unaware or ignorant of the law.

Not the same group either.

[Rob Osborn]

18 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Not the same group either.

Let's cut to the chase scene- who specifically do you think are those who knew no law?

[Anddenex]

14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Let's cut to the chase scene- who specifically do you think are those who knew no law?

I have already shared, and @JohnsonJones already highlighted thoughts also. No need to further debate something if clear examples are provided. Here is another aspect to those who know law, but are without the law -- spiritual witness.