The Heathen Nations and They That Knew No Law

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I have already shared, and @JohnsonJones already highlighted thoughts also. No need to further debate something if clear examples are provided. Here is another aspect to those who know law, but are without the law -- spiritual witness.

Okay, just so we are on the same page then- you believe that someone who "knew no law" is someone who knows of the prophets and was aware of the prophet teachings but chose not to be a part of them because they received no spiritual witness?

[Anddenex]

43 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, just so we are on the same page then- you believe that someone who "knew no law" is someone who knows of the prophets and was aware of the prophet teachings but chose not to be a part of them because they received no spiritual witness?

Who determines if someone "knew the law" and is subject to this statement?

By what means/measure is determined then if someone "knew the law"?

This is what I hear from you, which was supported by a seventy, "If you preach the missionary discussions, and they don't accept -- they are condemned." This includes them in the "knew the law."

Another seventy from our mission was asked same question and his response, "We don't know what spiritual witness these individuals received. We do not know. God knows. Simply hearing the word does not mean they "know" the law." That is one type, and they do not fully enter the group of being ignorant of law.

In order to "know" one must have had spiritual witness and rejected it. That witness is then from God, not man.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Who determines if someone "knew the law" and is subject to this statement?

By what means/measure is determined then if someone "knew the law"?

This is what I hear from you, which was supported by a seventy, "If you preach the missionary discussions, and they don't accept -- they are condemned." This includes them in the "knew the law."

Another seventy from our mission was asked same question and his response, "We don't know what spiritual witness these individuals received. We do not know. God knows. Simply hearing the word does not mean they "know" the law." That is one type, and they do not fully enter the group of being ignorant of law.

In order to "know" one must have had spiritual witness and rejected it. That witness is then from God, not man.

But the verse quoted is speaking of "heathen Nations". I think we can ascertain what and who this is and pertains to. In the rest of Christianity the "heathen Nations" were those Nations, entire populations of society who were or are strangers to revealed Christianity/religion and thus- knew not the law.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Anddenex]

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But the verse quoted is speaking of "heathen Nations". I think we can ascertain what and who this is and pertains to. In the rest of Christianity the "heathen Nations" were those Nations, entire populations of society who were or are strangers to revealed Christianity/religion and thus- knew not the law.

The verses spoke of are speaking toward "heathen nations" and anyone who would be considered a "heathen" by scriptural definition. We have "heathens" even among the United States who would be ignorant of, or without law but are aware of.

Having a partial law, doesn't place someone who is among a Christian nation as someone who knew the law. There are still people in the United States who have only heard the word "Mormon" but have no clue who or what they are, and yet their lives would be -- from scripture -- considered hedonistic. They are people who think Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are two different churches. To be fully ignorant of any law though, obviously this is referring to people who are gentiles, heathen nations, that have never even heard of the Bible or Christ. Examples would be island dwellers or forest dwellers where missionaries have never reached.

So the easy question is once again, "Who determines if someone "knew the law" and is subject to this statement?" There are multiple scriptures, not just D&C that have to be taken into consideration that correlate with these verses. They have been mentioned.

But I am not interested in having a circular debate that goes through the same passages of scripture. I have shared, you can move forward how you would like.

[Rob Osborn]

43 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The verses spoke of are speaking toward "heathen nations" and anyone who would be considered a "heathen" by scriptural definition. We have "heathens" even among the United States who would be ignorant of, or without law but are aware of.

Having a partial law, doesn't place someone who is among a Christian nation as someone who knew the law. There are still people in the United States who have only heard the word "Mormon" but have no clue who or what they are, and yet their lives would be -- from scripture -- considered hedonistic. They are people who think Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are two different churches. To be fully ignorant of any law though, obviously this is referring to people who are gentiles, heathen nations, that have never even heard of the Bible or Christ. Examples would be island dwellers or forest dwellers where missionaries have never reached.

So the easy question is once again, "Who determines if someone "knew the law" and is subject to this statement?" There are multiple scriptures, not just D&C that have to be taken into consideration that correlate with these verses. They have been mentioned.

But I am not interested in having a circular debate that goes through the same passages of scripture. I have shared, you can move forward how you would like.

I think we are basically in agreement here. It took a bit but I think we have arrived. So, do you believe that the heathen nations who have died, died without law?

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Expound please.

Lev. 26:33    Deut 28:25, 37, 64    Jer 29:18-19    Amos 9:9    Zech 10:9    1Nephi 22:3-8    3Nephi 21:26

I would also point you to the Symbolic reference of Zenos's allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob 5-6

[Anddenex]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I think we are basically in agreement here. It took a bit but I think we have arrived. So, do you believe that the heathen nations who have died, died without law?

Heathen nations are able to be viewed in two ways according to scripture:

1) Those who are ignorant, knew no law

2) Those who are aware, know of, but are without law

What I have discovered situations like this, from our perspective, are rarely black and white as you might have people in #2 (fit the parameters) but have people in their nation who fit #1. This highlights the concept that eternal life is a personal endeavor.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Anddenex

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Heathen nations are able to be viewed in two ways according to scripture:

1) Those who are ignorant, knew no law

2) Those who are aware, know of, but are without law

What I have discovered situations like this, from our perspective, are rarely black and white as you might have people in #2 (fit the parameters) but have people in their nation who fit #1. This highlights the concept that eternal life is a personal endeavor.

So, do you think that those spoken of in D&C 45:54- "they that knew no law" are the same as those spoken of in section 76:72 "they who died without law"?

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Lev. 26:33    Deut 28:25, 37, 64    Jer 29:18-19    Amos 9:9    Zech 10:9    1Nephi 22:3-8    3Nephi 21:26

I would also point you to the Symbolic reference of Zenos's allegory of the tame and wild olive trees in Jacob 5-6

Okay, so do you think they (the lost tribes) lived and died for the most part without law?

[NeuroTypical]

This topic is always quite personal to me.  My father's soul literally depends on the outcome of this argument.  Dude spent 20 years among the Mormons, poking lighthearted fun at organized religion and figuring he had everything he needed to go to whatever heaven awaited him.   He proudly took the title of Heathen, and often referred to himself as one.  I did his temple work.  But it's not like he didn't reject umpteen opportunities to hear the law, and they tell me we keep our personalities and beliefs and stuff as we pass through the veil.  

Fortunately for him, none of the players on this board will be deciding the outcome.  No offense, but my dad's got a better judge to issue the final ruling.  I get to have hope no matter who seems to win this earthly argument.

Edited February 19, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

This topic is always quite personal to me.  My father's soul literally depends on the outcome of this argument.  Dude spent 20 years among the Mormons, poking lighthearted fun at organized religion and figuring he had everything he needed to go to whatever heaven awaited him.   He proudly took the title of Heathen, and often referred to himself as one.  I did his temple work.  But it's not like he didn't reject umpteen opportunities to hear the law, and they tell me we keep our personalities and beliefs and stuff as we pass through the veil.  

Fortunately for him, none of the players on this board will be deciding the outcome.  No offense, but my dad's got a better judge to issue the final ruling.  I get to have hope no matter who seems to win this earthly argument.

I hear you. Under my own personal beliefs he will most likely accept the gospel and when he does he will be put on the same path as all the rest of the saved to inherit all that the Father hath.

[JohnsonJones]

There's another way to look at it as well.

Among those who are in the heathen nations are those who have no knowledge of the Law.  IN this case they could also be seen as those without the Law.   The difference in the idea would be those who did not have knowledge of the Law but who would have accepted it with all their heart.  In this instance, they will receive the same reward.

On the otherhand are those who would not have accepted the Law even if given the chance.  Thus, they did not have the Law either, but without the law and not accepting it, they receive the award according to what they accept.

In that same light, we could view those who did not have knowledge of the Law but knew of the law (in society) vs. those who knew the law but rejected the law.

It can be viewed multiple ways depending on your opinions, ideas, and thoughts on the matter.

18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

This topic is always quite personal to me.  My father's soul literally depends on the outcome of this argument.  Dude spent 20 years among the Mormons, poking lighthearted fun at organized religion and figuring he had everything he needed to go to whatever heaven awaited him.   He proudly took the title of Heathen, and often referred to himself as one.  I did his temple work.  But it's not like he didn't reject umpteen opportunities to hear the law, and they tell me we keep our personalities and beliefs and stuff as we pass through the veil.  

Fortunately for him, none of the players on this board will be deciding the outcome.  No offense, but my dad's got a better judge to issue the final ruling.  I get to have hope no matter who seems to win this earthly argument.

I'm the only member of my family (well, first member I suppose, my children are all members and my wife is) but my relatives mostly rejected the message.  Some of them probably understood it pretty well. 

Their souls do not really depend on the outcome of the argument/discussion as this discussion doesn't determine anything.  What happens will happen according to the Lord's Justice and Mercy.  I will NOTE, even if I love them dearly, IT WAS THEIR CHOICE IN THIS LIFE to accept or reject the gospel.  For some of them, they probably had a pretty good understanding of the gospel.  They made a choice in this life. 

The great thing we have as LDS is that most of us (I believe Rob does believe sort of in a binary, which is why I would say most of us) do not believe in a binary eternal reward.  It is not heaven or bust.  In fact, we believe most will get to the Kingdom of Heaven, even if it is not with exaltation.  Even the Telestial Kingdom is to be more glorious than what we can imagine here on Earth.  It is a paradise that many would die to get to if they knew what it was like (at least according to some).  This shows the Lord's great love and mercy, even for those who absolutely rejected him here, but do not become Sons of Perdition. 

We don't decide who goes where and what reward someone gets (I may get a far lesser reward than my relatives for example, I don't make those types of decisions, all I can do is to try my best in this life).  We do not know their full understanding or knowledge in this life, thus we do their temple work because we are not their judge.  We enable them to receive the rewards that they merit, and if they merit exaltation, then the ordinances are done for them to accept them in the hereafter. 

However, I feel it probably is going to be better for those who accepted the gospel in this life when given the opportunity, lived in righteousness, and endured to the end, than those who rejected it.  That's a personal feeling, however, and does not connotate what anyone's eternal reward will actually be.

Edited February 19, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[Anddenex]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Fortunately for him, none of the players on this board will be deciding the outcome.  No offense, but my dad's got a better judge to issue the final ruling.  I get to have hope no matter who seems to win this earthly argument.

Yep, this is why I specified, " Who determines if someone "knew the law" and is subject to this statement? " There is only one person, actually two, who determine a final outcome, and none of us compare to either regarding perfect judgement -- as of here and now.

We also have to be well aware of Nephi's words pertaining to his posterity, which he saw and declared, "Thy ways are just." So, in this life, we have hope as I have hope for the most wonderful Christian (Methodist) to live on this planet -- my Pa (Grandma). I also have to recognize what she knew and was aware of, and thankfully God is the judge and is the one that determines, and His ways are just.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

The great thing we have as LDS is that most of us (I believe Rob does believe sort of in a binary, which is why I would say most of us) do not believe in a binary eternal reward.  It is not heaven or bust.  In fact, we believe most will get to the Kingdom of Heaven, even if it is not with exaltation.  Even the Telestial Kingdom is to be more glorious than what we can imagine here on Earth.  It is a paradise that many would die to get to if they knew what it was like (at least according to some).  This shows the Lord's great love and mercy, even for those who absolutely rejected him here, but do not become Sons of Perdition. 

Binary heaven and hell with differing glories within heaven. 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

There's another way to look at it as well.

Among those who are in the heathen nations are those who have no knowledge of the Law.  IN this case they could also be seen as those without the Law.   The difference in the idea would be those who did not have knowledge of the Law but who would have accepted it with all their heart.  In this instance, they will receive the same reward.

On the otherhand are those who would not have accepted the Law even if given the chance.  Thus, they did not have the Law either, but without the law and not accepting it, they receive the award according to what they accept.

In that same light, we could view those who did not have knowledge of the Law but knew of the law (in society) vs. those who knew the law but rejected the law.

It can be viewed multiple ways depending on your opinions, ideas, and thoughts on the matter.

What about those who reject the law, die young and then accept in the spirit world vs. those who reject it their whole lives then, nearing death in old age, accept?

The logic of accepting in this life falls apart under closer examination. Thus, those who die without law are no different than those who reject it ehere both then accept it in the spirit world- it being about who we become, not where we been.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Rob Osborn

[Jersey Boy]

22 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so do you see those who are spoken of as those who died without law (vs. 72) as a separate group as those who were kept in Spirit prison (vs. 73)? If so, are they both designated as those who both received the gospel after death (vs. 74)?

IThere’s one verse in D&C 76:72-79 that clears up all the confusion and makes the other 7 verses very easy to understand. I’m wondering if you can find that one clarifying verse, and then, if you can find it, go on to explain why that verse makes all the other verses clear and easy to understand? 

 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, so do you think they (the lost tribes) lived and died for the most part without law?

According to Isaiah there are three principles at the foundation of apostasy - A transgression of the law, changing of the ordinances and the breaking of the everlasting covenant.  Jesus used the parable of the Prodigal Son as the example.  Note that the Prodigal Son rebelled against the law but (came to himself when in a heathen nation ) and returned.  

I find it interesting that the Prodigal Son had a brother that believed that the return of the Prodigal Son was not just and fair and thought he should be condemned for his rebellion.   In the parable of the lost sheep - the shepherd goes out and finds the "lost" sheep when they do not come to their senses and find their own way back.  The symbolism in scripture is that there is not a one and done opportunity but many opportunities to hear.

I know personally of many that have transgressed the law and rebelled against the law and lost their birthright having received it - but then came to their senses and returned and have been re-baptized.  Spiritually without the covenant of Baptism all live without the law and if they die they die without the law.  Without the priesthood keys no one can live under G-d's law.  All that are lost (or are symbolically spoken of in scripture) are part of the heathen nations that are without the law - which is also symbolic of the fall.

 

The Traveler

 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

IThere’s one verse in D&C 76:72-79 that clears up all the confusion and makes the other 7 verses very easy to understand. I’m wondering if you can find that one clarifying verse, and then, if you can find it, go on to explain why that verse makes all the other verses clear and easy to understand? 

 

Humm...kind of difficult as it speaks of different groups.

[Jersey Boy]

43 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Humm...kind of difficult as it speaks of different groups.

It’s very obvious which of the eight verses is the one I’m referring to. You may be missing it because you don’t believe there are three major degrees of glory in heaven.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

15 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

It’s very obvious which of the eight verses is the one I’m referring to. You may be missing it because you don’t believe there are three major degrees of glory in heaven.

Just throw it out there, you may be surprised by my answer

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

What about those who reject the law, die young and then accept in the spirit world vs. those who reject it their whole lives then, nearing death in old age, accept?

The logic of accepting in this life falls apart under closer examination. Thus, those who die without law are no different than those who reject it ehere both then accept it in the spirit world- it being about who we become, not where we been.

Only if you ignore the pre-existence in my opinion.  In the Pre-existence we made choices that directly affected the conditions we were born into here.  It showed our wished in that arena already in where we would wish to go...at least in my opinion.  Thus, whether we have a shorter life or longer life, what choices we make here also affect where we go in the next life.  If we choose wickedness and die young, or wickedness and die old, it is still the same.  If we choose the good while young and die, or choose evil and die old it is still the same. 

If either accepts in the Spirit World (and theoretically, even those who completely rejected the Lord in this life will eventually have their spirit lightened and will at least acknowledge him and his atonement, as every knee will bow) then they will be judged as per their hearts, minds, actions and other necessary items in accordance with the judgment of the Lord.  It is all part of the plan, and if only a shorter time period was needed to know what their fate would be, then that is how the plan works out. 

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Just throw it out there, you may be surprised by my answer

You should find it. Answers to troubling questions are much more impactful and satisfying when we find the answers on our own.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Only if you ignore the pre-existence in my opinion.  In the Pre-existence we made choices that directly affected the conditions we were born into here.  It showed our wished in that arena already in where we would wish to go...at least in my opinion.  Thus, whether we have a shorter life or longer life, what choices we make here also affect where we go in the next life.  If we choose wickedness and die young, or wickedness and die old, it is still the same.  If we choose the good while young and die, or choose evil and die old it is still the same. 

If either accepts in the Spirit World (and theoretically, even those who completely rejected the Lord in this life will eventually have their spirit lightened and will at least acknowledge him and his atonement, as every knee will bow) then they will be judged as per their hearts, minds, actions and other necessary items in accordance with the judgment of the Lord.  It is all part of the plan, and if only a shorter time period was needed to know what their fate would be, then that is how the plan works out. 

Humm...well enough, I respect your opinion. I disagree but who's to know, right?

[Rob Osborn]

46 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

You should find it. Answers to troubling questions are much more impactful and satisfying when we find the answers on our own.

I've written papers on each of those separate verses. I could go on for days...literally. I was more inclined to see what you thought and go from there.

[Rob Osborn]

11 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

You should find it. Answers to troubling questions are much more impactful and satisfying when we find the answers on our own.

I will give a brief synopsis of each verse how I interpret it. One thing of importance is that the verses do not collectively describe one group but several groups, some of which were ignorant or under no condemnation, while others were transgressors and in condemnation and judged by the law.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law.

This verse covers a myriad of people. It includes the heathen Nations who knew no law. It also includes the ignorant. It also includes the handicapped, mentally incapable, and small children who died before becoming truly accountable. This group is unique because they cannot be judged by law, they are under no condemnation of the law and thus repentance is not required of this group. Anyone who is not judged by the law is not nor cannot be condemned by the law. This is explained in Moroni 8:22

"22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing."

Verse 73-

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

This describes all of the wicked who have ever lived, such as those in Noah's day who rejected him and those through all ages who died within the law and thus were condemned by the law and sent to the spirit prison but then, after paying their penalty, repented and accepted the gospel and baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost and all other ordinances of the temple. This is a Stark contrast type of people as compared to those in verse 72 who needed no repentance. The big picture here is that this group, in the end, live according to godliness in the spirit world awaiting their resurrection.

Verse 74-

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

This can apply to both groups previously mentioned. The gospel is taught in both paradise (to those who died without law) and those in Spirit prison (those who died within the law and found to be condemned). No man can be saved in ignorance. 

Verse 75-

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

This group basically describes the righteous on this Earth, it can also describe some of us- you and I. We are honorable people who, through no real fault of our own, are blinded by the craftiness of man's devices and from time to time get caught up in such things as petty sins and transgressions such as swearing, viewing inappropriate material, etc. It also describes us in that we get caught up in the things of the world and see them as more important than being completely devoted to Christ. It represents us in not wanting to help others and make all alike. We like social and wealth structure too much. 

Verse 76-

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

This verse and those that follow describe the earth during the millennium. We receive more light and truth but not yet the fullness.

Verse 77-

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

This verse is unique in that it describes the glory of Christ. But pay attention- if this were after resurrection and judgment at the end of the millennium then it would describe Christ as having the glory of the fulness of the Father. At that point Christ goes no more out and has the same glory as the Father which is a fulness. So, the question must be asked- if this were at that point how could the terrestrial abide his fulness? They couldn't, and neither is Christ shedding some of his glory so that they could abide in his presence. No, this describes the millennium where we will live and reign with Christ as we are not yet ready for a fulness. And, because Christ hasn't yet to sit on his throne where he is crowned with the fulness we thus can abide in his presence. Much more could be said on this point but it suffices for now.

Verse 78-

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

Of course, during the millennium all those living on the earth will only have terrestrial bodies because they are quickened by the glory of the earth at that time which is quickened by the glory of Christ.

Verse 79-

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

This is a unique verse because it specifically refers to the saints- to you and I, all of the members of the church. To be valiant is to be perfect. None of us are perfect or "valiant". If we were we would immediately receive the crown which is a fulness. We are yet imperfect and still need learning and training. Thus happens during the millennium. Now, also remember, this group is not the same as those in either verse 72 or 73 as they received no testimony of Christ in the flesh through the ordinances of the gospel but received that testimony after death. 

For now that should suffice.