Eternal Damnation - Mosiah 2:38-39


BeccaKirstyn
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In Mosiah 2:38-39, King Benjamin is speaking about those who do not repent and die without doing so. He then speaks about the result of eternal damnation. I have a friend (who has fallen away from the gospel and does not believe in it anymore—yet he believes he is categorized as such from these verses, so quite contradictory) that believes this means he has no chance to ever be “saved”. That he’s a lost cause.

In these verses, and the verses listed for the footnote of “torment” under damnation—this is talking about the spiritual damnation, or lack of progress, of those in spirit prison who must chose to repent before judgment day, yes? Or am I interpreting this incorrectly? I tried to explain it this way (hopefully assuming I was correct in that assumption), but of course he did not take to that explanation and pushed it aside. 

Any other insights on this verse and similar “damnation” verses would be helpful! 😊

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8 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

In Mosiah 2:38-39, King Benjamin is speaking about those who do not repent and die without doing so. He then speaks about the result of eternal damnation. I have a friend (who has fallen away from the gospel and does not believe in it anymore—yet he believes he is categorized as such from these verses, so quite contradictory) that believes this means he has no chance to ever be “saved”. That he’s a lost cause.

In these verses, and the verses listed for the footnote of “torment” under damnation—this is talking about the spiritual damnation, or lack of progress, of those in spirit prison who must chose to repent before judgment day, yes? Or am I interpreting this incorrectly? I tried to explain it this way (hopefully assuming I was correct in that assumption), but of course he did not take to that explanation and pushed it aside. 

Any other insights on this verse and similar “damnation” verses would be helpful! 😊

"Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment."

Your friend still has time to repent (see Alma 34:32-34). The scriptures and perhaps of more relevance, people he may know who have done as much or worse than he, are full of examples of people repenting of terrible things. The sooner the better, because even though the spirit prison affords some opportunity, he will still be that "same spirit."

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The scriptures that specify this is a time to prepare to meet God. As long as he is living, he can still repent, and is only categorized in the verse shared if he does not repent. Thus the concept of do not procrastinate the day of your repentance.

Personally, the more honest and direct you are, depending on how close your relationship, the better it will be long run for your friend. That verse accurately depicts the choices he is making now, if he does not repent. To deny this wouldn't do him any favors.

 

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10 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

In Mosiah 2:38-39, King Benjamin is speaking about those who do not repent and die without doing so. He then speaks about the result of eternal damnation. I have a friend (who has fallen away from the gospel and does not believe in it anymore—yet he believes he is categorized as such from these verses, so quite contradictory) that believes this means he has no chance to ever be “saved”. That he’s a lost cause.

In these verses, and the verses listed for the footnote of “torment” under damnation—this is talking about the spiritual damnation, or lack of progress, of those in spirit prison who must chose to repent before judgment day, yes? Or am I interpreting this incorrectly? I tried to explain it this way (hopefully assuming I was correct in that assumption), but of course he did not take to that explanation and pushed it aside. 

Any other insights on this verse and similar “damnation” verses would be helpful! 😊

One of the titles of G-d includes the term "eternal".  Thus the title "G-d the Eternal Father".  Mostly we think of eternal as meaning forever outside of time - or, in other words, never beginning or ending.  I am not sure that is actually the way we should understand eternal.  It is interesting to me that in ancient Egypt there was a different view of "eternal".  I will try to explain.  Ancently eternal was associated with perfection, holy, divine and complete.  In short, eternal damnation means G-d's damnation - which is just, perfect, holy, divine and complete.  It also meant that it could not be circumvented, prevented or diminished.  Though things eternal in this sense could last forever and throughout time is possible but not NECESSARY as we like to think of it in our modern English.  It is interesting to me that Joseph Smith quotes the ancient Egyptian term in the D&C in a few places rather than using the term "eternal".  I cannot remember the spelling and cannot find the quote but the term is spelled like "ignolum"

I believe the misery we suffer is the natural consequence of pure knowledge of what we have done wrong and that we remain so until we resolve to be better, humble ourselves and repent.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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Your friend is not beyond the reach of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, he can still repent. Speaking as someone who has committed many sins of grievous nature in the past and recently went to the temple to receive my endowment, there is hope, it's there for him if he chooses to accept it. Pray for your friend, it's the adversary who places thoughts of being a lost cause into our hearts.

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12 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

 I have a friend (who has fallen away from the gospel and does not believe in it anymore—yet he believes he is categorized as such from these verses, so quite contradictory) that believes this means he has no chance to ever be “saved”. That he’s a lost cause.

I view the seeming contradiction as a good thing. It suggest the possibility that your friend may be doubting his doubts. [thumbs up]

And, while fears about the prospects of the afterlife may be understandable and loom somewhat disquieting, it clearly isn't a motive for current change, and may even distract attention away from people's  current spiritual predicament.

To me, this is where your friends concerns may best be placed--not that you have much sway or say. It is like were a person to have fallen down a well worrying about whether in the distant future they would be prevented from ever getting out of the hole. 

Your friend is currently damning himself--i.e. he is now denying himself not only the blessings of heaven , but also the present opportunity to progress towards transcendent character and become like Christ. He is preventing, today, the light from shining into his darkness. He is keeping himself from climbing out of the spiritual hole.

In contrast, the messages of the Restored Gospel, as conveyed in this weeks Come Follow Me lesson, is that : "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (Jn 3:17-18)

Condemnation and denial of salvation, then, is essentially of our own making and our own choosing.

As @Barrett Maximus wisely counselled, pray for your friend, as we will as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

One of the titles of G-d includes the term "eternal".  Thus the title "G-d the Eternal Father".  Mostly we think of eternal as meaning forever outside of time - or, in other words, never beginning or ending.  I am not sure that is actually the way we should understand eternal.  It is interesting to me that in ancient Egypt there was a different view of "eternal".  I will try to explain.  Ancently eternal was associated with perfection, holy, divine and complete.  In short, eternal damnation means G-d's damnation - which is just, perfect, holy, divine and complete.  It also meant that it could not be circumvented, prevented or diminished.  Though things eternal in this sense could last forever and throughout time is possible but not NECESSARY as we like to think of it in our modern English.  It is interesting to me that Joseph Smith quotes the ancient Egyptian term in the D&C in a few places rather than using the term "eternal".  I cannot remember the spelling and cannot find the quote but the term is spelled like "ignolum"

I believe the misery we suffer is the natural consequence of pure knowledge of what we have done wrong and that we remain so until we resolve to be better, humble ourselves and repent.

 

The Traveler

...and it seems "never-ending" when you're "in it." from Alma 36:12-17, "...I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds. And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul. And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world."

GNOLAUM:

  1.   18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are bgnolaum, or eternal.
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On 2/27/2019 at 1:12 PM, wenglund said:

I view the seeming contradiction as a good thing. It suggest the possibility that your friend may be doubting his doubts. [thumbs up]

And, while fears about the prospects of the afterlife may be understandable and loom somewhat disquieting, it clearly isn't a motive for current change, and may even distract attention away from people's  current spiritual predicament.

To me, this is where your friends concerns may best be placed--not that you have much sway or say. It is like were a person to have fallen down a well worrying about whether in the distant future they would be prevented from ever getting out of the hole. 

Your friend is currently damning himself--i.e. he is now denying himself not only the blessings of heaven , but also the present opportunity to progress towards transcendent character and become like Christ. He is preventing, today, the light from shining into his darkness. He is keeping himself from climbing out of the spiritual hole.

In contrast, the messages of the Restored Gospel, as conveyed in this weeks Come Follow Me lesson, is that : "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (Jn 3:17-18)

Condemnation and denial of salvation, then, is essentially of our own making and our own choosing.

As @Barrett Maximus wisely counselled, pray for your friend, as we will as well.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Perfectly stated. Thank you.

And thanks to all the other comments! He is currently in a mindset of having no desire to repent. Yet I know there is this underlying fear of this eternal damnation that he is fully aware of. But he uses these verses and others similar to rationalize away that if the gospel were true, it would not include such a "harsh" punishment (his words). Many underlying doubts/uncertainties/and lack of faith regarding certain principles of the gospel that are the root of these thoughts. 

Many prayers will consistently be going his way, as well as my firm testimony of what I know to be true. 

Edited by BeccaKirstyn
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