For those who live in Utah...


carlimac
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Have you ever lived outside of Utah? If so, how does your church experience compare with when you lived outside? Do you ever feel "oppressed" by living among so many members? Do you have non-member friends who you choose to socialize with? Is your testimony different than when you lived away from Utah? 

 

Background: I grew up in Utah as did my parents and grandparents.  I have lived away for nearly 20 years now and the longing to get back "home" only intensifies the longer I'm away. But many people who have lived in my different wards over the past decades will sometimes disparage Utah and say things like, " Whew- we escaped!"  or "I'm out of Utah and never going back." 

I only had positive experiences growing up. I had some good non-member friends as well as a tight social group that has stayed together since highschool. 11 of the 13 friends as well as more than half my graduating class ( guessing) have stayed in the Salt Lake/Bountiful area. I had a firm testimony (most of the time.) Most of my family still lives there and they are puzzled about our living away all this time. ( Believe me it wasn't my choice.) 

What has changed over the past 20 years to make people dislike living there?

We're about 3 1/2 years from an empty nest and may have the chance to retire in Utah. Should we be looking elsewhere?  

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I have lived outside of Utah.  My experience has been pretty much the same in and out of Utah.  No I'm not oppressed, well not by the LDS population at any rate.  I have non member friends.  My testimony has grown stronger as I have grown older.  Where I live has no bearing on my testimony.  Utah has been the best place I have lived.

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Just about all of my Utah bashing is done in nonserious light-heartedness.  My percentage of good to bad LDS related experiences has been about the same, in or out of Utah.

I miss Upchuck-a-Grandma and walking to church wherever I live.
I do not miss inversion or the smell of dead brine shrimp.

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I grew up out of Utah and now live here.  You find some provincialism (as you do anywhere), but on the whole I find the prevailing commonality of values liberating and have no desire to leave.  

As for sociality:  I have virtually no social life and as a dedicated introvert, have no especial desire to cultivate one amongst either Church members or non-Mormons.  I see my family, I hang out here at ThirdHour, I commiserate with government workers during the breaks between court hearings.  It takes me a solid week just to recover from all the human contact I get from church on Sundays. ;) 

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I don't miss the inversion either and have to keep reminding myself that Utah isn't perfect like I remember it from my childhood. I honestly don't have any memory of an inversion till I was in my 20s. My dream is to live in the mountains above the gray/brown line.

 

37 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just about all of my Utah bashing is done in nonserious light-heartedness.  My percentage of good to bad LDS related experiences has been about the same, in or out of Utah.

I miss Upchuck-a-Grandma and walking to church wherever I live.
I do not miss inversion or the smell of dead brine shrimp.

 

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 I guess I'm wondering mostly if the people have changed. My husband is a little prone to pick up on anti-LDS sentiment in the news and that seems to be louder and prouder from certain Utah outlets than those where we've lived (MN and MD mostly). He's not keen to go back to Utah where the church is viewed so poorly  by so many. I find that outside Utah it's probably easier to walk away from the church without making a big stink or pestering the members after leaving. It's easier to just get absorbed by the rest of society. You can leave almost unnoticed.

Another question- are the teenagers in the church in Utah struggling with sin, pride and apathy more now than 20 years ago? Our oldest was almost 12 when we moved away so I haven't been able to observe that segment of the church up close during my own kid's teen years. Most of my kids' cousins were active and strong in the church through high school at least. It wasn't till some of them were in their 20s and 30s that they bucked the system and walked away. 

We have over 70 youth in our ward now in Maryland and I'd say they are all pretty active- good kids. A few do things their own way.  Not all attend all the activities and seminary ( Our ward is really spread out so it's hard for some to get there during the week) but most come on Sunday. But I think they are harder on each other. All but abut 5 of them go to the same highschool so they don't have other LDS friends to connect with besides each other. That makes for tons of social drama!! 

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Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, carlimac said:

 I guess I'm wondering mostly if the people have changed

https://apnews.com/7a367fbe5cca4da6a3eeb1b2aef0d8f5

“The place is just becoming much more diverse,” said Pam Perlich, director of demographic research at the University of Utah’s Gardner Policy Institute. “It is not just that data set that is indicating it. There are many data sets showing that.” From the article. 

It's clear there is some kind of change going on. 

Edited by MormonGator
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4 hours ago, carlimac said:

But many people who have lived in my different wards over the past decades will sometimes disparage Utah and say things like, " Whew- we escaped!"  or "I'm out of Utah and never going back."

Just my experience, I find these statement coming from progressive Mormons who have come to a state of mind that feels like they need to bash Utah. It makes them feel better about their prejudice, and then provide an excuse for them to feel the way they do (justification/rationalization).

I have a particularly friend who feels, since his enlightenment, that constantly makes derogatory comments about his home state Utah. He apparently is now more enlightened because of his political views, and having lived outside of Utah.

I grew up in California, and if I had a choice I would live in Utah over California any day.

One of the concepts I see in Utah within the Church though is being stuck in tradition, and having a harder time moving forward with change. Elder Bednar when he visited our stake region he mentioned how Utah and some other areas are having the hardest time with the new changes. The majority of other places were not.

Personally though, this type of attitude from my experience with these statement, are stemming from people who do not yet recognize their own self-righteousness. It often comes with a mentality of, "I am so much better than my Utah member peers." It is pretty sad.

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I mostly grew in Utah (but we lived in Chicago and Washington before that), but have lived in Wyoming, Colorado (my current location for the last several years), and Missouri.

Utah is also a pretty big state.   Living in Escalante, for example, is vastly different from living in Salt Lake City.

Inside or outside of Utah, I haven't really felt oppressed or favored because I was LDS.

Most people are good and treat you well, both inside and outside of the Church.   Some of the best people I know or know are LDS and some of the best people I know aren't LDS.   Some of the worst people I know are also LDS.

That said, I can say that attending Church in some smaller communities in Utah is sometimes an entirely different experience than attending Church outside of Utah or in the bigger cities of Utah.   In smaller towns that are mostly LDS, there seems to be a lot more "cliqueishness" in the towns and in the wards.    This can be both good or bad.   For example, once I was attending a church in rural Utah where the Bishop got up and said that the ward needs to run the non-Mormons out of town.  I was shocked (I was a visitor), but no one said anything and a lot of people were nodding with agreement.   I haven't seen things like this happen outside of the wards in rural Utah. 

 

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I lived in Rexburg for 2 years during college 2005-2007 (it's not UT, but very Mormonville).  I HATED it.  The lack of diversity, the default is people assuming you're LDS resulting in so many fakers and... the smiles.  I can not stand fake smiles- where I live nowadays if somebody doesn't like you, they flat out tell you.  In Rexburg they would fake smile at you.  

Just my experience.  Other people's mileage has varied. 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

I lived in Rexburg for 2 years during college 2005-2007 (it's not UT, but very Mormonville).  I HATED it.  The lack of diversity, the default is people assuming you're LDS resulting in so many fakers and... the smiles.  I can not stand fake smiles- where I live nowadays if somebody doesn't like you, they flat out tell you.  In Rexburg they would fake smile at you.  

Just my experience.  Other people's mileage has varied. 

I know what you are saying @Jane_Doe, and I agree. I'd rather have someone just tell me they don't like me rather than lie to my face and be friendly. 

That said, sometimes being "fake" is just acting like an adult. I have cousins who I can't stand, but I'm polite to them (and yes, I fake it) because I don't want to spoil family reunions for everyone and be a jerk. I could say "I hate your guts and never want to see you again you scumbag" but that wouldn't really help matters. So instead I just say "Hi Steve. Good to see you."  

Although the last time I saw one I said "Let's be honest, we'll never talk outside of funerals, so see you at the next one." So maybe I'm getting more "real" in my old age. 

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@MormonGator There is a lot to be said for just being pleasant to people you do not agree with. I have been having relatives to stay on rotating shifts. They feel the need to let me know that they disapprove of my lifestyle and values. So what? I do not agree with your values. But I am wise enough to recognize that adults do not always agree.

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15 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Just my experience, I find these statement coming from progressive Mormons who have come to a state of mind that feels like they need to bash Utah. It makes them feel better about their prejudice, and then provide an excuse for them to feel the way they do (justification/rationalization).
...
Personally though, this type of attitude from my experience with these statement, are stemming from people who do not yet recognize their own self-righteousness. It often comes with a mentality of, "I am so much better than my Utah member peers." It is pretty sad.

Well, maybe I can add another experience.  I routinely poke fun at Utah residents, the church in Utah, how much better things are here in God's country outside of the Ziron curtain, etc.  Lemme open myself up fully for y'alls examination:

- It's mostly done good naturedly, I try to mimic the crap people give each other when they like rival sports teams.  
- If there's ever any hidden edge of negative, it's probably due to the fact that my wife and I have some legitimate reasons for feeling like we escaped the clutches of evil Utahns.  Three of our last five trips back home have been to aid in a prosecution, attend parole hearings to try to keep someone behind bars, befriend and love the victim's family, etc.

But no, mostly it's the first one.  I'm no better than people in Utah, I'm hardly a progressive.   If you wanna talk justification/rationalization, you also gotta ask yourself why Utahns are so dang defensive. Ain't my fault y'all got inversion madness.

 

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44 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, maybe I can add another experience.  I routinely poke fun at Utah residents, the church in Utah, how much better things are here in God's country outside of the Ziron curtain, etc.  Lemme open myself up fully for y'alls examination:

- It's mostly done good naturedly, I try to mimic the crap people give each other when they like rival sports teams.  
- If there's ever any hidden edge of negative, it's probably due to the fact that my wife and I have some legitimate reasons for feeling like we escaped the clutches of evil Utahns.  Three of our last five trips back home have been to aid in a prosecution, attend parole hearings to try to keep someone behind bars, befriend and love the victim's family, etc.

But no, mostly it's the first one.  I'm no better than people in Utah, I'm hardly a progressive.   If you wanna talk justification/rationalization, you also gotta ask yourself why Utahns are so dang defensive. Ain't my fault y'all got inversion madness.

Good natured humor isn't what I my response was referring to. Having an accurate and real perspective of the oddities in Utah (even to be able to joke about them is healthy -- just like joking and poking fun at our own weaknesses) is also important, as there are plenty -- similar to other states.

We all have jokes we might say to a friend regarding some state, but it isn't meant to place oneself above another state. I will even joke about Utah's oddities.

My response though was more highlighting those who do not have a good sense of humor in their tone. They are full well meaning what they are stating, and are open about their prejudice or derogatory comments.

What I have experienced on thirdhour.org with your responses, I have never felt they were anything but said in good humor. Or, as you stated with the second explanation, it is simply a statement of yes I am glad to be out of that particular episode in our lives.

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3 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Help an outsider. What's this inversion you guys are talking about? Is it popular to talk like Yoda now?

The Salt Lake Valley is basically a bowl.  When weather conditions are just right, the large-scale airflow does a certain thing, and, well,

Image result for salt lake inversion

 

Somewhere in that brown soup is the SL Temple, the Tabernacle, etc.

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10 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Help an outsider. What's this inversion you guys are talking about? Is it popular to talk like Yoda now?

 

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

The Salt Lake Valley is basically a bowl.  When weather conditions are just right, the large-scale airflow does a certain thing, and, well,

Image result for salt lake inversion

 

Somewhere in that brown soup is the SL Temple, the Tabernacle, etc.

@mordorbund I have highlighted where the temple is with precise detail for you. Having lived in Utah for 20 years my eyes have evolved (adapted) and I can see through the inversion now (your welcome):

SLCTempInversion-2010Jan-JudeTibay.thumb.jpg.9960738c42dcc1994b59856a5a7082e9.jpg

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I love Utah. I moved here from Northern California when I was in 6th grade. I still love California too. If you are the type of person who sees the positive about things, that’s what you will find here. If you look for the negative that’s what you will find.

The people are diverse. There are a lot of people who have moved here from out of state. The larger cities are the most diverse. I have always had wonderful neighbors of all backgrounds. If you move here thinking that because Utah is predominantly LDS that most of the people will be following the commandments, think again. The LDS community struggles just like any other community. Many are struggling, just like me, to make good choices. Sometimes I fail, and I can’t be judging people for their weaknesses when I have so many faults of my own.

There can be an anti-LDS atmosphere in some work environments. I found that at one of my jobs. I was glad to find better employment where respect for all was followed. If you are kind and friendly, not hypocritical or self-righteous, people will like you. 

I have loved every ward I have been in.  People are good. Sometimes it takes awhile to feel like you fit in, but, for me it’s most likely because I’m more of an introvert and find it extremely hard to socialize.

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On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 4:40 PM, Anddenex said:

One of the concepts I see in Utah within the Church though is being stuck in tradition, and having a harder time moving forward with change. Elder Bednar when he visited our stake region he mentioned how Utah and some other areas are having the hardest time with the new changes. The majority of other places were not.

IF he said this, I'd say he MAY be FAR out of touch with a LOT of people outside of Utah.

For example....a prime example...99.9% of them are anti-LDS (but not anti-Mormon)...as a majority of the people outside of Utah STILL refuse to stop calling Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Mormons.  In fact, the common idea of members of the Church is that they are all Mormons.  Those non-members that are not part of that Utah culture just simply refuse to stop calling members of the Church...Mormons.

:P

A little more seriously though, this is reflective in some ways of an attitude that does exist outside of Utah at times.  It is seen that sometimes the Church leaders are so engulfed within the culture found in Utah that policy changes arise from their experiences in Utah more than the rest of the world. 

It's understandable though, he basically lives in Utah and most of the changes are seen as stemming from UTAH problems rather than anything dealing with the rest of the world in most cases. 

In fact, that IS something that you see outside of Utah in regards to things changing.  Sometimes people will comment on changes and indicate that it's due to things in Utah and Utah culture rather than anything that has to do with the rest of the world.

Not EVERYTHING, mind you, but many things.

I find the further you go East and out of the US, the more prevalent this idea gets.  In California, it doesn't seem as big as it is in Georgia...for example.  I've always seen this, so I don't know when it started to exist or if it always existed since Brigham took the Saints to Utah and some went to California or others stayed out East.

I think this also reflects and idea that Members outside of the Mormon Belt are in someway different than those who ARE in the Mormon Belt (an area extending from Southern Idaho to Northern Arizona), or the idea that those who are not in areas with a LOT of members are different in culture and action than those that are in those areas (and sometimes this extends to other parts of the Western US as well).

Overall, I think that the attitudes in the US are actually very similar outside of Utah as inside of Utah in regards to the Culture of the Church.  I think it is a tad different in slight ways when you go outside the US, but overall, the atmosphere is still the same in church.

Thus, you will have those that are inactive, those that are super active, those that close knit, and many other commonalities between all members in the US.  I would say that even the activity rates are similar to a degree, but are a little more drastically different in other parts of the world (by drastic, I mean over 5-10% difference, whereas in the US, I think most places probably hover around the same activity and inactivity rate within 5-10% of each other).

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 12:27 PM, carlimac said:

Have you ever lived outside of Utah? If so, how does your church experience compare with when you lived outside? Do you ever feel "oppressed" by living among so many members? Do you have non-member friends who you choose to socialize with? Is your testimony different than when you lived away from Utah? 

 

Background: I grew up in Utah as did my parents and grandparents.  I have lived away for nearly 20 years now and the longing to get back "home" only intensifies the longer I'm away. But many people who have lived in my different wards over the past decades will sometimes disparage Utah and say things like, " Whew- we escaped!"  or "I'm out of Utah and never going back." 

I only had positive experiences growing up. I had some good non-member friends as well as a tight social group that has stayed together since highschool. 11 of the 13 friends as well as more than half my graduating class ( guessing) have stayed in the Salt Lake/Bountiful area. I had a firm testimony (most of the time.) Most of my family still lives there and they are puzzled about our living away all this time. ( Believe me it wasn't my choice.) 

What has changed over the past 20 years to make people dislike living there?

We're about 3 1/2 years from an empty nest and may have the chance to retire in Utah. Should we be looking elsewhere?  

That attitude has been around since at least...well...as long as I can recall and that's been a pretty long time.  It may be that you just notice it more.

Utah itself HAS changed in some ways over the past 20 years. 

Brigham Young once told the Saints not to sell their land and to stay on it.  He prophesied that if they sold their land that Non-members would move in and they would lose the control they had over the various policies, regulations, laws, and morality within their current areas of living. 

I find that this is coming true in our day.  Ironically, Utah is trying to attract far more people and in the process there are a LOT of non-LDS people moving to Utah.  This is not a bad thing, but it means that in the large areas such as Salt Lake City the influence of the Church culture is growing less.  It is still there, but these days there is a LOT more pushback.  Whenever a visible entity (and in the Mormon Belt the LDS church IS a visible entity that wields considerable influence still, as opposed to outside of it where it is barely even noticed) there will be those who speak ill of that entity.  This has always been true of the Church in Utah, but as the non-Mormon population has risen and grown, the impact of this pushback has grown more noticeable.

Salt Lake City has it's Mormon quirks, but is very much like most other medium sized cities in the US.  It still has a somewhat smaller city feel while still hosting most of the culture available to a larger city.  One can find either great good or great evil, depending on what they seek out.  If one wants to have a lot of LDS culture in their life it is probably easier to find in Salt Lake City than elsewhere in the US outside of the Mormon Belt.  If one wants to find decadence and sin, it is also easily found in Salt Lake City.

Provo/Orem has grown more towards what Salt Lake was like around 30-40 years ago.  There is still a LARGE LDS population, but the worldly influence is growing by leaps and bounds. 

I think Ogden has remained about the same to be honest in the past few decades, but it always had the base there to influence it.

Logan I feel is somewhat like Provo, though you'll find a looser culture of sorts and easier to find those who are somewhat rebellious, I think it is also very easy to find those who are DEEPLY immersed in the culture of the Church as well.  In fact, some of the best and greatest Saints may be found in that area.

Southern Utah above St. George is still very Mormon.  You move there and you'll be in the heart of Mormon culture.  They still live, eat, and breathe the church (though yes, you'll still have inactives, and the rest, the influence of Mormon culture is still very strong there).

You'll only feel "oppressed" if you WANT to feel "oppressed" in Utah.  There is a greater influence of the Church and it's culture in these areas for obvious reasons, and those who do NOT LIKE this type of culture may tend to dislike it somewhat.  However, I find even those who are very anti-LDS love Utah for other reasons.  Some love to ski, some love the outdoors and what Utah has to offer in that regards, and various other reasons.  Only those who want to feel oppressed or really dislike a heavy Mormon influence will find it.  Many of those I think who dislike the atmosphere may be Mormon and because others are Mormon, do not feel unique or special in that way.

Outside of the Mormon Belt when you may be the only Mormon around (ahem, I mean, Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) it is far easier to feel as if you are special, or unique.  It is easier to feel that because there are so few of you, that you stand out and that makes you stronger.  It is harder to hide in the crowd if others know you are Mormon outside of Utah because many may expect things of you.  On the otherhand, because there is such a HUGE number of Members in Utah, sometimes it CAN be easier to hide.

There are many benefits to living in Utah today.  Underwear is easier to get (this actually is a big thing to be honest) if you are looking for a special type that applies to many Members.  Church books are more prevalent and easier to find.  Church tourist sites are normally easier to access (unless you are living in parts of the Northeast, or Nauvoo where there are also Church tourist sites).  Many neighbors will be Members and share your values. 

There are many benefits to living outside of Utah.  For example, I LOVE the environment of the South (US).  Utah is a very brown place compared to the South.  You do not realize just how green and vibrant the South (and much of the East coast I suppose) is until you've visited Utah and stayed there for a while.  Utah has very dry air and for someone that already has dry skin, that can actually be a detriment to healthy skin.  It is much harder to keep your skin from peeling and cracked in Utah than it is on the East Coast.  Unless you go into the Mountains, Utah lacks trees.  Even with the trees in the Mountains, Utah lacks the underbrush which grows so heavily in the South.  Utah has cold rain.  In the South, in the summer, the rain is warm.

Utah is RICH in LDS history, but doesn't have as much cultural richness in US history as the Eastern US.  You can't go visit the revolutionary war sites or the Civil War sites like you can out East.

I think there are benefits to Utah, and there are benefits to not living in Utah.  It boils down more to the individual than it does the area, I think.  Those who love to study the scriptures, to attend Sacrament meeting, and other things Saints do will be able to find it no matter WHERE they live. 

What matters more, I think is what type of area they want to live in.  The Green and Vibrant South, the Urban cities of the North, the quiet countryside of the North and the Midwest, the rolling fields of the great plains, the Deserts of the West, the Green Conifer Forests of the North West, what type of area and environment does one want to live in I think is far more important than whether they will have LDS influence or the impact of it on the culture they live in.  That is more up to the individual and their outlook than the area they live in itself.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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I have lived in a number of other states, but somehow I keep getting drawn back to Utah.  I had plans, on my last return.  Had a job offer in another state, got to Green River where my truck broke down, ended up staying to take care of my truck and get the funds to continue on, and that was 12/2011.  Here it is 3/2019.  Things just went on from there.

Hmmm.

 

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I grew up in South Salt Lake, and moved to Southern California when I was in my late 20s, and have been here for almost 30 years.  I find the church is known as a bit quirky, but well respected.  The LDS kids are usually the good kids in school, and non-Mormon families are happy to have them hang out with them in school, but not marry or be more serious because they don't want them caught up in a quirky church (putting it politely).  One of my coworkers was worried her daughter would get married in a temple and not be let in.   

But what still kind of surprises me about Utah anyway is the culture is so Mormonic.  Either you are in the church, or you are mocking the church.  I am used to the LA Weekly and the OC Weekly which are standard liberal news mags, but in Utah, the SLC Weekly was the same thing, but every single article was about how rotten those Mormons were.  The non-Mormons in Utah, particularly in politics are really bitter.  Even smoking.  Here in California, non-smoking laws are praised by the left, but in Utah, they are all upset about it.  It's really bizarre.

That said, I have thought about moving back, but the winters and family out here keep me here.  Thing is, there are enough Mormons here to make it feel culturally significant.  There are several church buildings nearby, so I still feel like I am home.  And some of the inland suburbs feel very community driven, like the neighborhoods I grew up in.  

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On 3/1/2019 at 3:38 AM, JohnsonJones said:

IF he said this, I'd say he MAY be FAR out of touch with a LOT of people outside of Utah.

For example....a prime example...99.9% of them are anti-LDS (but not anti-Mormon)...as a majority of the people outside of Utah STILL refuse to stop calling Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Mormons.  In fact, the common idea of members of the Church is that they are all Mormons.  Those non-members that are not part of that Utah culture just simply refuse to stop calling members of the Church...Mormons.

:P

A little more seriously though, this is reflective in some ways of an attitude that does exist outside of Utah at times.  It is seen that sometimes the Church leaders are so engulfed within the culture found in Utah that policy changes arise from their experiences in Utah more than the rest of the world. 

It's understandable though, he basically lives in Utah and most of the changes are seen as stemming from UTAH problems rather than anything dealing with the rest of the world in most cases.

Note, the concept of ministering and other changes were actually piloted outside of Utah -- you were aware of this right?

Elder Bednar also highlighted the first shall be last and the last shall be first referring to how specific changes have been piloted and made outside of the US, and are now coming to the US? Outside of Utah/US (last who are now first), and to the US/Utah (first who are now last).

So no, the changes are not stemming from problems in Utah.

The easiest one to highlight is the Self-Reliance program which was a result of seeking to help the Saints in South America and other countries of similar economic circumstances. It performed so well there, it has now been brought to the US. It is a wonderful program solving issues worldwide wide, not local to Utah.

Edited by Anddenex
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