When a Leader Said Something REALLY Hurtful (And How I Got Over It)


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I've mentioned it before, but here's a quick recap for those of you who haven't read much of my work (intentionally, probably, because my sense of humor is so weird): when I served a mission, I struggled with significant depression for almost the first nine months. After several transfers, my angelic mission president put me in touch with a General Authority (it wasn't a member of the Twelve, and please don't speculate). I remember talking with him, sobbing out my entire heart, telling him how I didn't understand why I had wanted to serve a mission so desperately my entire life but then hated it... But his response was not what I needed. Please don't get me wrong: this man — a man with a holy calling, but still an imperfect man! — was a good man who was trying. He didn't shoot me down or say anything intentionally hurtful, but his response was something along the lines of, "Well, the pioneers had to do things they didn't want to do,...

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Nice article; and useful, from a certain perspective.  I look forward to the follow-up:

“When a follower totally misunderstood something I as a bishop said (and how I dealt with the fact that the follower spent the next ten years telling bold-faced lies about me that I couldn’t refute because of confidentiality concerns)”

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He didn’t shoot me down or say anything intentionally hurtful, but his response was something along the lines of, “Well, the pioneers had to do things they didn’t want to do, so you need to buck up.” Maybe that advice would’ve worked well for someone else — someone who simply needed an attitude adjustment rather than someone who needed clinical help — but for me it was devastating. I left that conversation feeling much worse than when I entered it.

Amy, has it occurred to you that maybe this General Authority was right? That maybe sparing your precious, tender feelings in the moment was not actually the best course for you? That sometimes, blunt truth supersedes supposed tact?

No one likes bitter medicine, but for you to claim that this leader's words (which after all weren't derogatory or insulting, just more or less "buck up, little camper") were "REALLY hurtful" is almost comical, if not pathetic. You are and were an adult! I have had sons on missions who have needed to counsel with leaders because they were feeling bad, so I'm not without sympathy for your plight. But for you to characterize his advice as "REALLY hurtful" says far, far more about you than it does about him.

It seems to be common among women, and becoming ever more common among men (especially of the rising generation), that any voicing of discouragement or sadness, even those couched as personal criticism to the listener, must be met with sympathy. I very much disagree. Sometimes a stern "buck up" is the message people need to receive. Even female people.

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Out of all the things I've heard church leaders state over the years in the capacity of their calling, 99.9% of it is good advice, nothing objectionable, sound principles, gospel truths, etc.  There is a tiny, tiny, miniscule handful of comments I've gathered over the almost-5 decades, that are problematic in some way.  I could probably count all of them on both my hands. 

I'm guessing that most of that small amount of problematic stuff have come from the leader's stuff-they-were-always-taught, cultural knowledge, incorrect assumptions, etc.  In other words, even in that tiny small handful, they were trying their best to do good, they were just letting some of their imperfect show.  I have never personally encountered a church leader trying to do ill, work evil, be unhelpful, etc.  Once or twice I've seen one lose their temper and speak out of negative emotion, but they've recovered and apologized later. 

But anyway, more than one of these comments have been clueless, ignorant, even harmful advice when it comes to mental illness.  The human race has just naturally sucked at having this stuff figured out.  We struggle to know what to do about it, or even to acknowledge that it exists.  And when we're actually face to face with someone who is struggling with some form of it, and we can't empathize because we've got no clue what that's like, sometimes we, in our attempts to help, say something stupid.  The last comment I encountered was from a counselor in our Bishopric, giving a talk on how to have peace in our lives.  The offensive quote, which stood out and overshadowed everything else he had to say, was "You don't need a pill to feel the spirit."  I looked over at my wife, who has been on a maintenance dose of brain pills for most of her adult life, and she just rolled her eyes.  She had heard it before, from umpteen clueless idiots trying to help, and now she was hearing it taught across the pulpit by a member of the bishopric.  Fortunately, she was at a mature point in her life when she didn't look to church leaders for help living life, and could identify and forgive the occasional slip.  Maybe someone else less grounded heard it and gave up.  It happens.

The church tries hard.  Elder Morrison has published stuff on the topic:

Valley of Sorrow: A Layman's Guide to Understanding Mental Illness
Myths about Mental Illness - October 2005 Ensign 

I've joked more than once that once they make me emperor of the Mormons, you'll have to read that book and pass a quiz before being ordained to any priesthood office.  Book report for any Melchezedic office.  Over the years, I've bought a dozen or more copies of the book, and handed it to new Bishops, Stake Presidencies, anyone who wanted a copy.  The feedback was immediate and overwhelmingly positive.  "I wish the church gave us more training on this" was a regular comment a couple of decades ago.  These days, I'm told the church does indeed have training easily accessible for leaders on these subjects.  We're doing better.  But humans are still humans.  

Yeah, lots of people hear stuff wrong, have a chip on their shoulder, a persecution complex, a problem with authority, hate men in power, try to justify their complacency, are looking for a reason to be offended, are thin skinned and brittle, hurt by truth, offended by good advice they don't want to hear.  Those are all things that happen.  A lot.  Probably 99% of the time, when I hear someone grousing about counsel from a leader, I'd be willing to think there's a problem with the person receiving counsel.  But you know what else happens?  Sometimes this or that leader might give imperfect advice. Sometimes even downright clueless, false, harmful advice.   Almost never.  But yeah, it happens sometimes. 

The solution isn't to blame the person complaining. Or blame the person who tried and failed.  The solution is to spread the truth.

No really - go read that 2nd link.  Go get a copy of the book.  If anyone wants to PM me, I will personally mail you a copy.

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13 hours ago, Vort said:

Amy, has it occurred to you that maybe this General Authority was right? That maybe sparing your precious, tender feelings in the moment was not actually the best course for you? That sometimes, blunt truth supersedes supposed tact?

If the author was truly experiencing Clinical Depression, then there is no worse or more useless reply than "buck up and get over it."  That really is damaging, because a person who is struggling with CD (and I'm not just talking about being in a blue funk because it's hard to adjust to mission life.  I'm talking about actual, diagnosable Depression) then they're already struggling with a variety of difficult emotions, not the least of which being "this is my fault."  So the reply of "get over it" just reinforces that idea, no matter how delicately or diplomatically it's phrased.

I think in this case what went wrong was that the author (by her own acknowledgement) had expectations of this leader that weren't reasonable.  It sounds like she expected that this reply would be a sort of magical elixir that would just make the problems go away, but that isn't how CD works.  To be fair to the leader, unless he had a background in mental health, it isn't likely that he would have recognized the symptoms for what they were, especially if the author herself didn't realize it was at a clinical level. 

This is just one of those situations where nobody was being mean or insensitive, it's just that nobody had all the information they needed to deal with the situation better.

 

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9 minutes ago, unixknight said:

If the author was truly experiencing Clinical Depression, then there is no worse or more useless reply than "buck up and get over it."  That really is damaging, because a person who is struggling with CD (and I'm not just talking about being in a blue funk because it's hard to adjust to mission life.  I'm talking about actual, diagnosable Depression) then they're already struggling with a variety of difficult emotions, not the least of which being "this is my fault."  So the reply of "get over it" just reinforces that idea, no matter how delicately or diplomatically it's phrased.

I think in this case what went wrong was that the author (by her own acknowledgement) had expectations of this leader that weren't reasonable.  It sounds like she expected that this reply would be a sort of magical elixir that would just make the problems go away, but that isn't how CD works.  To be fair to the leader, unless he had a background in mental health, it isn't likely that he would have recognized the symptoms for what they were, especially if the author herself didn't realize it was at a clinical level. 

This is just one of those situations where nobody was being mean or insensitive, it's just that nobody had all the information they needed to deal with the situation better.

 

I have mental health issues.  The most useful response I have ever gotten from somebody I love is.... "are you done?".

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I have mental health issues.  The most useful response I have ever gotten from somebody I love is.... "are you done?".

Probably important to note that "are you done" and "get over it" are worlds apart.  "Are you done" while potentially rude, at least recognizes that there is a process your brain has to go through, even if it is outside normative behavior. "Get over it," on the other hand, implies that you should switch your brain over to normative behavior.  I've not seen anyone do that successfully.

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34 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Out of all the things I've heard church leaders state over the years in the capacity of their calling, 99.9% of it is good advice, nothing objectionable, sound principles, gospel truths, etc.  There is a tiny, tiny, miniscule handful of comments I've gathered over the almost-5 decades, that are problematic in some way.  I could probably count all of them on both my hands. 

Clearly, I've never been one of your church leaders.

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2 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Probably important to note that "are you done" and "get over it" are worlds apart.  "Are you done" while potentially rude, at least recognizes that there is a process your brain has to go through, even if it is outside normative behavior. "Get over it," on the other hand, implies that you should switch your brain over to normative behavior.  I've not seen anyone do that successfully.

That's not why it was useful.  The question "are you done" - which came from my husband - was useful because it brought straight home to me that my mental health is not my husband's problem.  It is MY problem.  I needed to take responsibility for it and not expect my husband to be responsible for making it better.  "Get over it" may be different but it is the same in the sense that it gives that message - take responsibility for it instead of expecting other people to be responsible for it and being upset if they're not equipped/or even understand it to such a point that they can do anything about it.  Mental health is just like physical health - if you ask your friend to help you with your stomach ache, don't get upset if he ends up giving you stupid advice nor should you put that responsibility on his shoulders - it's your stomach, go to a doctor who knows better.

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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

Probably important to note that "are you done" and "get over it" are worlds apart.  

From the Elder Morrison link above, myth #4:

Quote

4. Mentally ill persons just lack willpower. There are some who mistakenly believe that the mentally ill just need to “snap out of it, show a little backbone, and get on with life.” Those who believe that way display a grievous lack of knowledge and compassion. The fact is that seriously mentally ill persons simply cannot, through an exercise of will, get out of the predicament they are in. They need help, encouragement, understanding, and love. Anyone who has ever witnessed the well-nigh unbearable pain of a severe panic attack knows full well that nobody would suffer that way if all that was needed was to show a little willpower. No one who has witnessed the almost indescribable sadness of a severely depressed person who perhaps can’t even get out of bed, who cries all day or retreats into hopeless apathy, or who tries to kill himself would ever think for a moment that mental illness is just a problem of willpower. We don’t say to persons with heart disease or cancer, “Just grow up and get over it.” Neither should we treat the mentally ill in such an uncompassionate and unhelpful way.

 

Now, to Anatess's point, I have recurring duodenal ulcers that cause an incredible amount of pain.  Sometimes I find they've recurred, because I wake up at 3am feeling like someone is driving a steel spike through my gut.  When this happens, I don't yell or scream or cry or demand attention.  I quietly get out of bed so as not to wake up my wife, go to the bathroom, down a swig of pepto, and then silently rock myself back and forth in pain for the 15 minutes it takes to work.  Then I quietly get back into bed and go to sleep.  Next day when she's awake, I can ask for hugs and sympathy and love and everything - but my pain shouldn't wake her up at 3am. 

(And when I come to her for sympathy the next day, she doesn't lecture me about how I should just tough it out.)

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14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

(And when I come to her for sympathy the next day, she doesn't lecture me about how I should just tough it out.)

Right.  Because she knows you.

What I have a problem with is this new-fangled idea that everybody should know everything about what everybody is struggling with and that they should know at all times what works and what doesn't work and how to express compassion.  Like they are expected to be a walking encyclopedia of mental health problems.  It's like people are so stuck in their own struggles that they think everybody should be compassionate to them and understanding of them but it never occurs to them that.... they need to get out of themselves and be compassionate and understanding of other people who don't have to carry that particular burden - they have their own problems to deal with.

 

P.S.  I didn't read the article.  I'm just commenting on the comments.

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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Right.  Because she knows you.

What I have a problem with is this new-fangled idea that everybody should know everything about what everybody is struggling with and that they should know at all times what works and what doesn't work.  Like they are expected to be a walking encyclopedia of mental health problems.  It's like people are so stuck in their own struggles that they think everybody should be compassionate to them and understanding of them but it never occurs to them that.... they need to get out of themselves and be compassionate and understanding of other people who don't have to carry that particular burden - they have their own problems to deal with.

Among the general population, I could get behind this.  But, lay ministry aside, I'm going to expect more of people who are charged with providing spiritual care for others.

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3 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Among the general population, I could get behind this.  But, lay ministry aside, I'm going to expect more of people who are charged with providing spiritual care for others.

Spiritual care is not the same as mental health care.  Spiritual care stands above it.  Telling a person to take the route of the pioneers is a Spiritual advice not a mental health advice.  It applies to everybody.  Each person is to take that advice and tailor it to their specific struggle - which they know intimately.  You don't get to be exempted from the lessons of the pioneers just because you have clinical depression.

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10 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Among the general population, I could get behind this.  But, lay ministry aside, I'm going to expect more of people who are charged with providing spiritual care for others.

Fair enough. In the same manner, we expect more of someone charged with spiritual care with regard to physical limitations. But such sensitivity does not mean that we should expect a spiritual caregiver to know how to respond to insulin shock, nor does it mean that we expect the caregiver to necessarily change people's soiled linens, provide them a therapeutic massage, or diagnose their physical ills. I assume that those with mental and emotional disorders are capable adults, and that they go to their spiritual caregiver to receive spiritual care. To expect the caregiver to function as a psychotherapist is not reasonable.

With all due respect to @unixknight and his greater insights into such issues as we're discussing, I maintain that there are plenty of worse and more useless replies than "buck up and get over it." In many cases, especially with young, inexperienced people such as missionaries, "buck up and get over it" may often be the very best reply.

There is probably never a good reason to be intentionally offensive, and the weak knees need strengthening, not slapping down. But adults, even adults in some distress, are still expected to act and to think like adults. "Buck up, little camper" is not "REALLY hurtful" in any reasonable estimation. Sure, maybe if you're talking about how your wife or child died, it's amazingly insensitive. But talking about the general vicissitudes of life with which we all deal, in the final estimation, "buck up" is probably almost always the solution. Anyone who finds such a comment in such a context to be "REALLY hurtful", as the author did, is not functioning as an adult. That's on them, not on the leader.

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I just read the article. It seems to me that the GA didn't know how to address a missionary with a mental illness. Unfortunately, it is more common than we think. Some members still believe that statements such as "think positive" "buck up" "stop being negative" or "get over it" can help someone 'snap out' of their depression. It doesn't work that way and it damages the person even further. Depression is not a choice and if we don't know how to handle someone's depression, we can always seek the help of a professional.

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24 minutes ago, Suzie said:

I just read the article. It seems to me that the GA didn't know how to address a missionary with a mental illness. Unfortunately, it is more common than we think. Some members still believe that statements such as "think positive" "buck up" "stop being negative" or "get over it" can help someone 'snap out' of their depression. It doesn't work that way and it damages the person even further. Depression is not a choice and if we don't know how to handle someone's depression, we can always seek the help of a professional.

Do you expect your GA to know how to address say... gastroparesis?  Or even to know a person is suffering from one when he enters the GA's office?  So the person says, "my stomach hurts", and the GA says... "eat some food, you'll feel better".  Are you going to tell him... food is not the solution to gastroparesis,  GA's should know better?

It is not the GA's job to diagnose depression in the same manner that it is not his job to diagnose gastroparesis.  It is the responsibility of adults to go to seek the help of professionals to investigate their heads or their stomachs instead of expect a GA to seek them out for them.

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I like this picture, and I often think about it as I am in (what I might see as) the woeful grips of some horrible struggle.

BigGirlBritches.jpg.e376df9c86b9412d46b5542d9e04b713.jpg

I often find it best advice to myself.   Yet for some reason, when I suggest it to other folk, they don't seem to see it the same way as often.  For some reason, when this advice comes from someone else, it's relevance and effectiveness goes down.

When I measure my attempts to love my neighbor in terms of effectiveness, I get to understand that sometimes a good effort goes un-accepted.  But I also have to allow for some measure of how good/relevant/useful my attempt actually is in the first place.  Both are important.

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15 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yet for some reason, when I suggest it to other folk, they don't seem to see it the same way as often.  For some reason, when this advice comes from someone else, it's relevance and effectiveness goes down.

My friend (she passed away a few years ago) had lupos.  It was very taxing to be her friend because she has become so self-focused.  Like, she would drop her pills on the ground and leave it there even when she's visiting somebody else's house.  My kids were very young at the time and found one of the pills and was about to put it in his mouth.  So, I told her she needs to pick up her pills.  She got upset with me because I was being insensitive because she had lupos and she would be too tired to pick up things that fall on the ground.  Yes, she definitely has gotten to the point where lupos is her excuse to not be responsible for anything.  It is sad but there's nothing you can say or do, not even suggest a mental health professional because... lupos.  

I feel like a lot of people's mental health issues have become like my friend's lupos.

And as I write this, I'm sure somebody is going to chime in with... you're being offensive to mental health sufferers who find it hard just to get out of bed in the morning.  In 3... 2... 1...

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Anatess, I mentioned the obvious. The GA didn't seem to know how to handle someone with a mental illness hence his reply. Whether it is her or his responsibility doesn't change the fact that he clearly didn't know how to address someone with depression. Are you bothered at the fact that I said he didn't know?  Let me say it again then: He DID NOT KNOW.  Now "get over it'. 😛

 

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19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My friend (she passed away a few years ago) had lupos.  It was very taxing to be her friend because she has become so self-focused.  Like, she would drop her pills on the ground and leave it there even when she's visiting somebody else's house.  My kids were very young at the time and found one of the pills and was about to put it in his mouth.  So, I told her she needs to pick up her pills.  She got upset with me because I was being insensitive because she had lupos and she would be too tired to pick up things that fall on the ground.  Yes, she definitely has gotten to the point where lupos is her excuse to not be responsible for anything.  It is sad but there's nothing you can say or do, not even suggest a mental health professional because... lupos.  

I don't even know where to start in order to address this post. Few things leave me speechless.

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18 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Anatess, I mentioned the obvious. The GA didn't seem to know how to handle someone with a mental illness hence his reply. Whether it is her or his responsibility doesn't change the fact that he clearly didn't know how to address someone with depression. Are you bothered at the fact that I said he didn't know?  Let me say it again then: He DID NOT KNOW.  Now "get over it'. 😛

 

Well, you seem to expect that everybody, especially the GA, should know how to handle depression.

And I don't have to get over it.  I don't have depression.  At least, not today.

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Guest MormonGator
28 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Anatess, I mentioned the obvious. The GA didn't seem to know how to handle someone with a mental illness hence his reply. Whether it is her or his responsibility doesn't change the fact that he clearly didn't know how to address someone with depression. Are you bothered at the fact that I said he didn't know?  Let me say it again then: He DID NOT KNOW.  Now "get over it'. 😛

 

Agree totally. I think it would help out tremendously if our leaders got some training in mental health issues. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Okay, because of this discussion, I read the article.  I LOVED it.  Amy Keim, if you're reading this, Well done.  

I found it to be a beautiful article about forgiveness.  Yes, our leaders mean well but they are human beings, and they are bound to make mistakes.  I know I have been hurt by well-intended church leaders before.  The main point of the article, in my opinion, was two-fold (or two points?). First, was a beautiful message about forgiving those who have hurt us whether they are leaders, or some other connection.  Second, was that our leaders are not perfect and that's okay because we're not perfect either.  Christ can heal all wounds, and is willing to forgive our shortcomings too.  

Great article. 

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