The LGBT stumbling block.


Phineas
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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Let me ask you a question.  Do you believe that the teaching on Marriage being between a Man and Woman is harmful and intolerant towards LGBT people?

No I do not.  Because people have the right to choose how they want to live.  The Church isn’t stopping them from doing what they want to do and loving who they want to love.  However, there are these things called commandments church members are expected to follow.  

I like to donate blood and celebrate birthdays.  I would have to give up those things if I wanted to be a JW.  But that doesn’t make them hateful towards me.

There are many gay members of the church who choose to remain faithful to the commandments.  That’s great for them.  There are gay people that choose differently.  I respect them too.

That’s my approach.

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1 minute ago, Phineas said:

No I do not.  Because people have the right to choose how they want to live.  The Church isn’t stopping them from doing what they want to do and loving who they want to love.  However, there are these things called commandments church members are expected to follow.  

I like to donate blood and celebrate birthdays.  I would have to give up those things if I wanted to be a JW.  But that doesn’t make them hateful towards me.

There are many gay members of the church who choose to remain faithful to the commandments.  That’s great for them.  There are gay people that choose differently.  I respect them too.

That’s my approach.

There ya go.  That's the answer to your question for the Church and Church members who follow the commandments of the Church.

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Just now, anatess2 said:

There ya go.  That's the answer to your question for the Church and Church members who follow the commandments of the Church.

Yes.  That’s my answer.  But it’s always nice to hear other perspectives.🙂

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7 minutes ago, Phineas said:

Yes.  That’s my answer.  But it’s always nice to hear other perspectives.🙂

Erm... it's not just your answer.  This is pretty black and white.  There's what the Church teaches and there's what the Church does not teach.   So I'm not quite sure what perspective you're going for.

But if you want a discussion, there's that mention you have about "Love who you want to love".  That could be worth a discussion.  If a gay person wants to follow the LDS Church commandments does he deprive himself of loving who he wants to love?

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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Erm... it's not just your answer.  This is pretty black and white.  There's what the Church teaches and there's what the Church does not teach.   So I'm not quite sure what perspective you're going for.

But if you want a discussion, there's that mention you have about "Love who you want to love".  That could be worth a discussion.  If a gay person wants to follow the LDS Church commandments does he deprive himself of loving who he wants to love?

I’m going with a very libertarian live-and-let-live perspective.  We all have the freedom do what we want.  We can swing our arms any which way as long as we don’t hit someone.  

A gay person can be a Latter-day Saint and  love anybody (that’s the second great commandment).  But he/she is still expected to obey the law of chastity.  Nothing hateful about that.  The individual has a right to choose how to live.  He/she just can’t force any organization to condone that behavior or call that organization hateful for not condoning it.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Phineas said:

I’m going with a very libertarian live-and-let-live perspective.  We all have the freedom do what we want.  We can swing our arms any which way as long as we don’t hit someone.  

A gay person can be a Latter-day Saint and  love anybody (that’s the second great commandment).  But he/she is still expected to obey the law of chastity.  Nothing hateful about that.  The individual has a right to choose how to live.  He/she just can’t force any organization to condone that behavior or call that organization hateful for not condoning it.

 

 

But that's not the question.  This is not a political question but a religious one.  The question was about "Love who you want to Love"...  do gay people who follow the LDS commandment discriminated from loving who they want to love?

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I try to show love to everyone. I have a lot of compassion for Latter-Day Saints who are LGBTQ. If they ask me, I tell them I know the Lord loves them, and in the end He will make everything right. I don't know how He will do that, I simply trust that He will.

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6 hours ago, Phineas said:

The whole LGBT issue seems to be a major stumbling block for a lot of members.  I know of two high profile members who have recently become disaffected over this issue.  Many see the Church as being harmful and intolerant towards LGBT people.  I am curious to hear how other faithful Later-day Saints reconcile the Church’s teachings concerning this topic with Christ’s teachings on love and compassion.   

This is how i reconcile it: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/love-and-law?lang=eng

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2 hours ago, Tyme said:

Gays will be allowed to be married in the Temple someday. 👹

If this were true, why would God have waited at least 6000 years before teaching that it is a morally and spiritually acceptable path?  Moreover, why did He give prophets past instruction indicating, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."?  Or, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?

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20 minutes ago, person0 said:

If this were true, why would God have waited at least 6000 years before teaching that it is a morally and spiritually acceptable path?  Moreover, why did He give prophets past instruction indicating, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."?  Or, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?

…. apparently because only now has civilization become "enlightened" enough to recognize the obvious moral superiority of such things...

… or something like that.

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22 minutes ago, person0 said:
2 hours ago, Tyme said:

Gays will be allowed to be married in the Temple someday. 👹

If this were true, why would God have waited at least 6000 years before teaching that it is a morally and spiritually acceptable path?  Moreover, why did He give prophets past instruction indicating, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."?  Or, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?

D&C 84:100 :)

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2 hours ago, carlimac said:

From what I've heard and experienced in talking with a few of these people is that they don't see their lifestyle choice to be sinful. So the "Love the sinner..." mentality is offensive to them. It's probably one of the biggest barriers to seeing eye to eye with them. They simply don't see their attraction and subsequent actions as sinning. Those of us who believe the prophets and interpret the Bible to be a condemnation of homosexual relations think it is sin. And ne'er the twain shall meet in the middle. 

Speaking as one who has not reconciled this issue, I agree that this seems to be the core issue -- is monogamous homosexual behavior in a committed, lifelong relationship sinful. Part of my own lack of reconciliation on the issue is that I remain unconvinced that it is sin. I think if I understood why it is sin, or could at least gain a testimony of it, even if I still did not understand it, it would be easier to reconcile. Some have said that it is something inherent in the eternal nature of marriage and family that explains it, but I have not yet understood those explanations.

38 minutes ago, person0 said:

If this were true, why would God have waited at least 6000 years before teaching that it is a morally and spiritually acceptable path?  Moreover, why did He give prophets past instruction indicating, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."?  Or, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."?

I don't know, but maybe for the same kinds of reasons that it took until the 1600, 1700, 1800s AD before abolitionism really took hold and the same kinds of reasons that He gave past prophets instructions regarding the taking and keeping (and freeing) of slaves.

 

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1 minute ago, MrShorty said:

Speaking as one who has not reconciled this issue, I agree that this seems to be the core issue -- is monogamous homosexual behavior in a committed, lifelong relationship sinful. Part of my own lack of reconciliation on the issue is that I remain unconvinced that it is sin. I think if I understood why it is sin, or could at least gain a testimony of it, even if I still did not understand it, it would be easier to reconcile. Some have said that it is something inherent in the eternal nature of marriage and family that explains it, but I have not yet understood those explanations.

I mean, it's pretty unambiguous in Scripture that such relationships are sinful.  

As for why... I offer my 2 cents'

  • We are commanded to be fruitful and multiply.  Homosexual relationships do not produce life, and thus such a relationship violates that directive
  • Children do best in homes with a male and female parent.  Children growing up in same sex households are at a disadvantage here
  • If indeed the purpose of eternal marriage and forever families is to construct a new family tree for humanity in the Celestial Kingdom, it isn't obvious to me how homosexual pairings contribute to it.

I don't say this is a complete list, but it's what comes to mind as I read your comments.

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