The LGBT stumbling block.


Phineas
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2 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

There are many unfair things that hapen in this life. 

It seems to be that we choose in life between dying as a product of our circumstance or a product of what we determine by our will.  But to say something is unfair would be a claim to know something beyond death - that I am not sure we can know to a certainty.   I do not "know" but I doubt that anything will conclude unfairly. 

But I intend to bring to light something of importance.  It is the difference between free and liberated or capacitive and in bondage.  I believe that in this life - if we submit our will to circumstance that we become bonded and captive of Satan and that which is evil - because we are fallen and our circumstances are somewhat influenced (enough and sufficient to cause) by that which would deprive us of liberty and freedom.

What concerns me most about LGBTQ movement is the intent to surrender one's self and will to circumstance.   The insistence that it is somehow not good (or evil) to determine by one's intelligent will - what is of value and worthwhile to live for.

 

The Traveler

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41 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It seems to be that we choose in life between dying as a product of our circumstance or a product of what we determine by our will.  But to say something is unfair would be a claim to know something beyond death - that I am not sure we can know to a certainty.   I do not "know" but I doubt that anything will conclude unfairly. 

But I intend to bring to light something of importance.  It is the difference between free and liberated or capacitive and in bondage.  I believe that in this life - if we submit our will to circumstance that we become bonded and captive of Satan and that which is evil - because we are fallen and our circumstances are somewhat influenced (enough and sufficient to cause) by that which would deprive us of liberty and freedom.

What concerns me most about LGBTQ movement is the intent to surrender one's self and will to circumstance.   The insistence that it is somehow not good (or evil) to determine by one's intelligent will - what is of value and worthwhile to live for.

 

The Traveler

I think that's a fair point. I was refering to an ideal situation rather than the eternities, so I can accept what you are saying. And I believe it's "unfair", in the sense of ideally, to havs to be attracted to the same sex. It makes living a righteous life more difficult than it does for someone who isn't. That does not mean one should not try to rise to the occasion and meet that challenge just as everyone else who deals with "unfair circumstances", per my listed examples, has to do as well.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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17 hours ago, Phineas said:

It can be a stumbling block if you put yourself in the shoes of gay and lesbian people.  Many of them have to choose a life of celibacy if they want to remain members in good standing.  It’s an unfair thing in the minds of many people.  

 

Again, I think this is the upside down thinking of the world in at least two respects.

First,  contrary to what is suggested, it is actually fair to homosexuals in the sense that life is unfair in its own ways for everyone, individually and collectively. The illusion that life is particularly unfair for certain groups is created by the media and identity politics using focused attention on select woes, and this for manipulative purposes. Ironically, what is unfair is the "judges" have rigged the Oppression Olympics to favor useful identities .

Second, the thinking is inverted because it prioritizes and promotes the woes over the potential redemption, the weaknesses over the potential strengths, and this on a group rather than on an individual basis.  This, too, is by worldly design.  It is much easier to subjugate populations by getting them to obsess about their group problems and injustices and inequality,  since individuals cant personally solve such things for the groups on their own, thus leaving the false perception that secular governments are the only source of resolution.  Not only is misery and the like made dominate, but power is shifted thereby from the individual to the collective--i.e. to the elites who rule the collective.

Whereas,  the Restored Gospel  does the opposite by way of the atoning sacrifice  and elevating example of Christ.  Salvation and exaltation is made paramount, first on an individual bases, and then on a family basis. Weaknesses are viewed as a means for gaining strength, and unfairness and injustice as a means of building divine character. Challenges, then, become opportunities for progression rather than the cause of damnation and failure.  At the very least, the sorrows of the night can be endured and even overcome through faith and hope in the joy that cometh in the morning.

In short, beware of the diametrical opposing thinking of the world, and Come Follow Christ..  It can make the difference between real progress or digression, true freedom and enslavement,  regardless of race, sex, age, religion, sexual orientation, or otherwise.

52598941_350158132259780_622173248875921

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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2 hours ago, wenglund said:

Again, I think this is the upside down thinking of the world in at least two respects.

First,  contrary to what is suggested, it is actually fair to homosexuals in the sense that life is unfair in its own ways for everyone, individually and collectively. The illusion that life is particularly unfair for certain groups is created by the media and identity politics using focused attention on select woes, and this for manipulative purposes. Ironically, what is unfair is the "judges" have rigged the Oppression Olympics to favor useful identities .

Second, the thinking is inverted because it prioritizes and promotes the woes over the potential redemption, the weaknesses over the potential strengths, and this on a group rather than on an individual basis.  This, too, is by worldly design.  It is much easier to subjugate populations by getting them to obsess about their group problems and injustices and inequality,  since individuals cant personally solve such things for the groups on their own, thus leaving the false perception that secular governments are the only source of resolution.  Not only is misery and the like made dominate, but power is shifted thereby from the individual to the collective--i.e. to the elites who rule the collective.

Whereas,  the Restored Gospel  does the opposite by way of the atoning sacrifice  and elevating example of Christ.  Salvation and exaltation is made paramount, first on an individual bases, and then on a family basis. Weaknesses are viewed as a means for gaining strength, and unfairness and injustice as a means of building divine character. Challenges, then, become opportunities for progression rather than the cause of damnation and failure.  At the very least, the sorrows of the night can be endured and even overcome through faith and hope in the joy that cometh in the morning.

In short, beware of the diametrical opposing thinking of the world, and Come Follow Christ..  It can make the difference between real progress or digression, true freedom and enslavement,  regardless of race, sex, age, religion, sexual orientation, or otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree with most everything you say here. We need to see all people as individuals rather than members of groups.  We all must exercise personal responsibility for own happiness and success in life.

Edited by Phineas
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1 hour ago, Phineas said:

I agree with most everything you say here. We need to see all people as individuals rather than members of groups.  We all must exercise personal responsibility for own happiness and success in life.

Unfortunately, some people portray themselves more as members of a group than individuals.

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On 3/6/2019 at 7:51 AM, Phineas said:

The whole LGBT issue seems to be a major stumbling block for a lot of members.  I know of two high profile members who have recently become disaffected over this issue.  Many see the Church as being harmful and intolerant towards LGBT people.  I am curious to hear how other faithful Later-day Saints reconcile the Church’s teachings concerning this topic with Christ’s teachings on love and compassion.   

The Church merely requires its members to be chaste.  If that is anti LGBTQ, so be it. 

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5 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The Church merely requires its members to be chaste.  If that is anti LGBTQ, so be it. 

It's a bit more complicated than that.  A heterosexual member needs to abstain from sex until they are married.  An LGBTQ person is expected to abstain for life.  Yes, I know, if a heterosexual never marries, they would abstain for life...but the thing is, they still have the hope of finding love.  Hope is so important.  

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6 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

It's a bit more complicated than that.  A heterosexual member needs to abstain from sex until they are married.  An LGBTQ person is expected to abstain for life.  Yes, I know, if a heterosexual never marries, they would abstain for life...but the thing is, they still have the hope of finding love.  Hope is so important.  

It really isn't more complicated than that.  You just explained the emotional hardships some have while following Christ. 

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48 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It really isn't more complicated than that.  You just explained the emotional hardships some have while following Christ. 

Yes, I agree "emotional hardships," and since we have all covenanted to bear one another's burdens, it's a shared pain, right? 

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On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 10:06 PM, Phineas said:

It can be a stumbling block if you put yourself in the shoes of gay and lesbian people.  Many of them have to choose a life of celibacy if they want to remain members in good standing.  It’s an unfair thing in the minds of many people.  

 

You mean like the single herterosexual guys and gals in my ward?  That kind of celibacy?

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9 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

It's a bit more complicated than that.  A heterosexual member needs to abstain from sex until they are married.  An LGBTQ person is expected to abstain for life.  Yes, I know, if a heterosexual never marries, they would abstain for life...but the thing is, they still have the hope of finding love.  Hope is so important.  

I understand and sympathize ith what you are suggesting (speaking as one who is old and hasn't married and has faced the likely prospect of never marrying).

However, part of what complicates things unnecessarily is confusing love with the sexual expression thereof. We all have hope of attaining a Christlike love even between members of the same sex, though I don't know how important or right it is to have hope for sodomy.

And, it isn't just homosexuals who may feel the "pain" of not being able to express their love in sexual ways contrary to God's will and design for His children. Given the  7th Commandment, I dare say that a significantly greater number of heterosexuals have no rightful hope of sexually expressing their love for someone else's spouse.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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Guest LiterateParakeet
1 minute ago, wenglund said:

However, part of what complicates things unnecessarily is confusing love with the sexual expression thereof. We all have hope of attaining a Christlike love even between members of the same sex, though I don't know how important or right it is to have hope for sodomy.

I agree there is much confusion over this issue but for different reasons. Being homosexual is not just about sex as many appear to believe. They seek emotional and physical connection, just as we all do.  

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree there is much confusion over this issue but for different reasons. Being homosexual is not just about sex as many appear to believe. They seek emotional and physical connection, just as we all do.  

I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest that homosexuality is only about sex. Certainly, I didn't. So, no confusion here.

Though, if one examines the comparative data for average numbers of sexual partners, as well as the rate of infidelity, the average duration of relationships, and the number of legalized relationship and divorce, if not also the rate of household with children, and the  recent trends associated with each, it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that physical connections are far more of a dominant, if not sole, attribute of  most homosexual relationships than heterosexual relationships.

Nevertheless, and simply put,  the rightness or wrongness in seeking emotional and physical connections for all of us, regardless of sexual orientation, is dependent upon whether it conforms to the will and design of God.

The "pain" for homosexual in not realizing their hope for sodomy and the like isn't any worse than that associated with the far greater number of heterosexuals  desiring adultery, if not also the emotional connections related to each.

Are these really the kinds of "pain" we are encouraged to bear? 

Besides, biologically, and in accordance with the design for God's creations, the desire for emotional and physical connections is essentially linked to procreation and continuance of the species. It seems counter-intuitive to bemoan or even share the "pain" of those whose desires run contrary thereto

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited by wenglund
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5 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Yes, I agree "emotional hardships," and since we have all covenanted to bear one another's burdens, it's a shared pain, right? 

I believe that it is.  We support each other through our struggles.  

Edited by Grunt
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On 3/10/2019 at 7:44 AM, LiterateParakeet said:

It's a bit more complicated than that.  A heterosexual member needs to abstain from sex until they are married.  An LGBTQ person is expected to abstain for life.  Yes, I know, if a heterosexual never marries, they would abstain for life...but the thing is, they still have the hope of finding love.  Hope is so important.  

See... this is why LGBTQ thinks they are oppressed... because of ERRONEOUS things like the bolded above.  It is these stupid things that tie love to sexual attraction that oppresses LGBTQ people.  The Church does not promote that thinking.  Rather, the Church promotes that FIRST comes LOVE then comes the desire to express that Love through Sex.  Thinking that first MUST come sexual attraction then love follows is Devil thinking.  It is not the Church that gives LGBTQ these hopeless feelings... it is people who go against Church principles.

Edited by anatess2
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18 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree there is much confusion over this issue but for different reasons. Being homosexual is not just about sex as many appear to believe. They seek emotional and physical connection, just as we all do.  

There is a gross misunderstanding of love as an emotional and physical connection in our postmodern era.  We are taught by divine covenant and law that the highest form of love is the pure love of Christ which is spoken of as Charity in scripture and is essential to the law of chastity.  That any relationship that is not bound by charity (which is the pure love of Christ) cannot be sealed by the Holy Spirit of truth and therefore is subject to the powers of darkness and will fail or end.  (See D&C 132:7).  

The only way to obtain charity is through repentance which is the second principle of divine truth - the first principle being faith in the L-rd of love and truth (Jesus Christ).

 

The Traveler

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19 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree there is much confusion over this issue but for different reasons. Being homosexual is not just about sex as many appear to believe. They seek emotional and physical connection, just as we all do.  

The difference is... we don't make emotional and physical connections as only possible between those who are sexually attracted to each other.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 Rather, the Church promotes that FIRST comes LOVE then comes the desire to express that Love through Sex.  

I agree. However, one can not flip their sexual orientation for love.  If you lived in an alternate universe where homosexuality was the norm, you could surely love another woman like a sister, but you would not develop the same feelings you now have for your husband.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

There is a gross misunderstanding of love as an emotional and physical connection in our postmodern era.  We are taught by divine covenant and law that the highest form of love is the pure love of Christ which is spoken of as Charity in scripture and is essential to the law of chastity.  

I agree that the way we define love, and what we look for in marriage has changed if that is what you are referring to. However, I doubt that any of us would like the idea of arranged marriage as was practiced anciently.  

There are different forms of love, I love my son in a different way than I love my husband or mother, but charity could apply to all...so in my opinion charity is not the point here.

49 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The difference is... we don't make emotional and physical connections as only possible between those who are sexually attracted to each other.

So in an alternate universe, where homosexuality was the norm, you could marry one of your Ministering sisters and develop a physical attraction for her? I couldn't. 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that the church change anything. The only thing I  am saying is I have great compassion for LGBTQ people trying to follow Christ. I think their path is extremely difficult, but I have hope that in the end (eternal perspective) the Lord will bring them peace. I don't know how that will happen. I don't claim to have any answers, I simply trust the Lord will heal all out wounds and hurts. And I trust that He loves LGBTQ Christian's and has even more compassion for their pain than I do. I trust Him.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
Just now, mordorbund said:

 

That assumption is unwarranted.

 

 

Lol, fair enough. I will amend that to "most of us" present company accepted.  :)

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54 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think their path is extremely difficult, but I have hope that in the end (eternal perspective) the Lord will bring them peace

Agree, their path is difficult, that's for sure. It's a heavy burden for them to carry. 

 

56 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

And I trust that He loves LGBTQ Christian's and has even more compassion for their pain than I do. 

Double agree. My grave concern is that LGBT Christians will turn their back on Him because of how some "Christians" treat the LGBT community. 

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I agree. However, one can not flip their sexual orientation for love.  If you lived in an alternate universe where homosexuality was the norm, you could surely love another woman like a sister, but you would not develop the same feelings you now have for your husband.

This is not true.  NOTHING in scripture supports a single word of this.

This is the stuff that creates Divorce in heterosexual marriages.  That idea that Love is simply a FEELING rather than a DECISION, a direct product of God's gift of Free Agency.  Feelings can be beyond your control.  For example, feeling desire can be beyond your control.  Feeling fear can be beyond your control.  But Love  NEVER will be.  It is the greatest commandment and making it something out of our control makes God cruel.  Love is, therefore, 100% under our control.  You can choose to Love or Not Love.  You can't be forced nor denied to Love.

 

Quote

I agree that the way we define love, and what we look for in marriage has changed if that is what you are referring to. However, I doubt that any of us would like the idea of arranged marriage as was practiced anciently.    

Disagree.  LOVE has never changed definitions.  People mutilate the definition to fit their own purposes.  The abundance of liberty simply allows people to cater to their hedonistic natures and serve it in a morally attractive platter they want people to accept as Love.

 

Quote

There are different forms of love, I love my son in a different way than I love my husband or mother, but charity could apply to all...so in my opinion charity is not the point here. 

"forms?".  There is only one love.  There are different EXPRESSIONS of it.  I don't love my son differently than I love my husband.  I simply express that love differently for my son than for my husband and such love comes with different obligations for the different people in my life which prioritizes or puts people in heirarchical order in our limited capacity to love in our mortal form.   But there is one love.  That all encompassing desire to bring someone with you closer to Christ - be it your son, your husband, your parents, etc. etc.   The objective of mortal existence is to learn about love so that by the time our mortal probation ends, we can love as Christ loves - unlimited to all beings.

 

Quote

So in an alternate universe, where homosexuality was the norm, you could marry one of your Ministering sisters and develop a physical attraction for her? I couldn't. 

You're going to have to change that alternate universe to make it so that you can only have children within your own gender and that the proclamation of the family is marriage to the same gender.  If that is the case, then yes, I can definitely develop what I need to develop to fulfill Christ's commandments.  Because I have faith in Christ and that he won't give me pain more than I can bear.

 

Quote

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that the church change anything. The only thing I  am saying is I have great compassion for LGBTQ people trying to follow Christ. I think their path is extremely difficult, but I have hope that in the end (eternal perspective) the Lord will bring them peace. I don't know how that will happen. I don't claim to have any answers, I simply trust the Lord will heal all out wounds and hurts. And I trust that He loves LGBTQ Christian's and has even more compassion for their pain than I do. I trust Him.

I have great compassion for LGBTQ people trying to follow Christ.  I believe that giving them wrong principles (homosexuals are deprived of love) gives them more pain than giving them hope.

I feel the same way for women who can't bear children.  Giving them the wrong principles (not all women can be mothers) gives them more pain than giving them hope.

Edited by anatess2
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Guest LiterateParakeet
14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not true.  NOTHING in scripture supports a single word of this.

This is the stuff that creates Divorce in heterosexual marriages.  That idea that Love is simply a FEELING rather than a DECISION, a direct product of God's gift of Free Agency.  Feelings can be beyond your control.  For example, feeling desire can be beyond your control.  Feeling fear can be beyond your control.  But Love  NEVER will be.  It is the greatest commandment and making it something out of our control makes God cruel.  Love is, therefore, 100% under our control.  You can choose to Love or Not Love.  You can't be forced nor denied to Love.

 

Disagree.  LOVE has never changed definitions.  People mutilate the definition to fit their own purposes.  The abundance of liberty simply allows people to cater to their hedonistic natures and serve it in a morally attractive platter they want people to accept as Love.

 

"forms?".  There is only one love.  There are different EXPRESSIONS of it.  I don't love my son differently than I love my husband.  I simply express that love differently for my son than for my husband and such love comes with different obligations for the different people in my life which prioritizes or puts people in heirarchical order in our limited capacity to love in our mortal form.   But there is one love.  That all encompassing desire to bring someone with you closer to Christ - be it your son, your husband, your parents, etc. etc.   The objective of mortal existence is to learn about love so that by the time our mortal probation ends, we can love as Christ loves - unlimited to all beings.

 

You're going to have to change that alternate universe to make it so that you can only have children within your own gender and that the proclamation of the family is marriage to the same gender.  If that is the case, then yes, I can definitely develop what I need to develop to fulfill Christ's commandments.  Because I have faith in Christ and that he won't give me pain more than I can bear.

 

I have great compassion for LGBTQ people trying to follow Christ.  I believe that giving them wrong principles gives them more pain than giving them hope.

Anatess, I think we've reached the point where we can only agree to disagree. You say the scriptures don't back up my claims, I don't think the scriptures completely explain any of this, nor do I believe they support your point of view. 

I stand by my view that there are different kinds of love. The love I have for my spouse is different than the love I have for my best friend, and different than what the High Counselor at church means when he says he brings the love of the Stake President. 

I don't believe my opinions are "giving" LGBTQ folks wrong principles, these are things they already know and have explained to me about their experiences. 

I understand that you will disagree and that's fine- it does provide more fodder for conversation. I'm just saying I think we've gotten to the foundation of our positions and it's something neither of us will budge from 

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