Phineas

The LGBT stumbling block.

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51 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Anatess, I think we've reached the point where we can only agree to disagree. You say the scriptures don't back up my claims, I don't think the scriptures completely explain any of this, nor do I believe they support your point of view. 

I stand by my view that there are different kinds of love. The love I have for my spouse is different than the love I have for my best friend, and different than what the High Counselor at church means when he says he brings the love of the Stake President. 

I don't believe my opinions are "giving" LGBTQ folks wrong principles, these are things they already know and have explained to me about their experiences. 

I understand that you will disagree and that's fine- it does provide more fodder for conversation. I'm just saying I think we've gotten to the foundation of our positions and it's something neither of us will budge from 

Love is defined clearly in Scriptures.  The "different kinds of love" trope was started by ancient Greeks who did not believe in One God nor Christ.

You could have given them hope by telling them their sexual orientation doesn't deprive them of the ability to love.  Telling them it is impossible to develop sexual attraction for someone you love is not a message of hope.

And yes, I can't budge out of these positions unless someone can prove to me that Gospel of Christ which includes The Proclamation to the Family is not a doctrine of hope and love for everybody but a doctrine of pain and hopelessness for some people.

So yes, we're gonna end up having to agree to disagree.  Which pains me because I just had a giant discussion about this with my mother who told me that "we can't help who we love." and I asked her, "so you just love me because you can't help it because you gave birth to me?" and she said, "yes."... talk about pain.  But I would like to believe she doesn't know what she's saying.  But if I can't even convince my own mother, who can I convince, eh?

Edited by anatess2

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8 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 However, I doubt that any of us would like the idea of arranged marriage as was practiced anciently.  

I would be fine with  an arranged marriage if my dad was the one choosing for me. I trust my dad 100 percent. He knew I would marry my husband before I knew that I even liked my husband. 

 

My mom deciding who I would marry, no way. Dad yes.

Edited by LadyGunnar
fixed from decided to deciding.

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Which pains me because I just had a giant discussion about this with my mother who told me that "we can't help who we love." and I asked her, "so you just love me because you can't help it because you gave birth to me?" and she said, "yes."... talk about pain.  But I would like to believe she doesn't know what she's saying.  But if I can't even convince my own mother, who can I convince, eh?

Just smile and say, "Well, I love a Mormon. :D"

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Love is defined clearly in Scriptures.  The "different kinds of love" trope was started by ancient Greeks who did not believe in One God nor Christ.

Since the New Testament is written in Greek, and in @LiterateParakeet's defense, there are 4 Types of Love in the Bible

More to the point, this is a  problem with language, particularly in cases where there are layers of translations from diverse languages and cultures. You, and the English translation of the Bible, are using the English word "love," which has multiple standardized connotations and even more slang meanings, and this in addition to the underling Greek words used to translate Hebrew and Aramaic, etc..

You are also having an online conversation in English.

It is easy to talk past each other when one party dogmatically assumes only a single meaning of a word.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund

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31 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Since the New Testament is written in Greek, and in @LiterateParakeet's defense, there are 4 Types of Love in the Bible

More to the point, this is a  problem with language, particularly in cases where there are layers of translations from diverse languages and cultures. You, and the English translation of the Bible, are using the English word "love," which has multiple standardized connotations and even more slang meanings, and this in addition to the underling Greek words used to translate Hebrew and Aramaic, etc..

You are also having an online conversation in English.

It is easy to talk past each other when one party dogmatically assumes only a single meaning of a word.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's not hard to not talk past each other when we're talking about the specific love that LGBTQ people claim to be deprived of.  By the way, it's erroneous to say that there are 4 types of Love in the Bible just because it was translated into 4 different Greek words - they are the same Love expressed in 4 different ways.  It's not a different love simply by the fact that we don't have 4 great commandments.

Edited by anatess2

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I'm feeling a little bit tired so please bear with me if I come across a little more grumpy than usual, but I need to get this out.

I'm really tired of people throwing around the idea of love as a justification for being open to the sin of homosexual actions.  I really am.  Because if love somehow makes it not so sinful anymore, then I guess I don't need to talk to my bishop if I:

  • Fall in love with another man's wife and run off with her
  • Fall in romantic love with my sister and run off to be with her
  • Fall in love with someone who's underage and take her away to be with her
  • Fall in love with a pet and... well the less said about that the better

Oh... wait, you mean love doesn't justify those actions?  Funny, that.  I  guess love isn't enough to justify sin after all.

Edited by unixknight

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I'm feeling a little bit tired so please bear with me if I come across a little more grumpy than usual, but I need to get this out.

You've still got a long way to reach @Vort-like levels of grumpiness, so don't worry about it. 

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I just had a giant discussion about this with my mother who told me that "we can't help who we love." and I asked her, "so you just love me because you can't help it because you gave birth to me?" and she said, "yes."... talk about pain.  But I would like to believe she doesn't know what she's saying.  But if I can't even convince my own mother, who can I convince, eh?

So wait..you tell Junior to listen to his mother but you don't listen to yours? tsk tsk tsk

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

It's not hard to not talk past each other when we're talking about the specific love that LGBTQ people claim to be deprived of.  By the way, it's erroneous to say that there are 4 types of Love in the Bible just because it was translated into 4 different Greek words - they are the same Love expressed in 4 different ways.  It's not a different love simply by the fact that we don't have 4 great commandments.

I love  your certainty. [Thumbs up].

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I am currently dealing professionally with a set of parents of several children, where  the father and mother are also father and daughter.

They are quite certain that they love each other.

They must be familiar with the Valheru, The Dragon Lords.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
10 hours ago, wenglund said:

Since the New Testament is written in Greek, and in @LiterateParakeet's defense, there are 4 Types of Love in the Bible

More to the point, this is a  problem with language, particularly in cases where there are layers of translations from diverse languages and cultures. You, and the English translation of the Bible, are using the English word "love," which has multiple standardized connotations and even more slang meanings, and this in addition to the underling Greek words used to translate Hebrew and Aramaic, etc..

You are also having an online conversation in English.

It is easy to talk past each other when one party dogmatically assumes only a single meaning of a word.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks.  this is perfect.  

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Guest LiterateParakeet
12 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So yes, we're gonna end up having to agree to disagree.  Which pains me because I just had a giant discussion about this with my mother who told me that "we can't help who we love." and I asked her, "so you just love me because you can't help it because you gave birth to me?" and she said, "yes."... talk about pain.  But I would like to believe she doesn't know what she's saying.  But if I can't even convince my own mother, who can I convince, eh?

We could start a new thread and discuss this.  :)   I think in a sense you are both right.  Can you imagine not loving one of your children?  I can't....though some abusive parents make me wonder about this, but that's another topic.  On the other hand, I also love different aspects about my children.  My love for them grows as they grow and develop in to fine young people.  My children are similar in some ways and different in others, I love both those similarities and differences.  So you are right and your mother is right.  :)  Just call me Tevia. 

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It's amazing to me how thoughtless people can be on the idea of "love". It's like most people can't get past the idea of Disney princess love they learned from watching cartoons in their childhood.

It's also amazing to me that people try and twist the nuanced meaning of words, Greek or English, it doesn't matter...to justify the carnal.

People are silly.

Love is just a word. It's a word that describes desire. Nothing more or less.

Desire, in and of itself, can be very, very good...and it can be very, very bad. It depends on what the desire is directed towards.

Loving something evil is not wholesome just because it's "love". Doesn't matter what so-called "kind" of love it is.

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21 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

However, one can not flip their sexual orientation for love.

If the world wide web has taught us one thing, it's that if a bunch of people adamantly claim something then it must be true.

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I will make a quick summary as to why I believe there are such problems concerning the LGBTQ political endeavors.   Please understand that these “problems” are not indicative of any individual – just the political climate that we currently find in our society.

Fist consideration.  In 1973 it was suddenly decided by the American Psychological Society that homosexuality was not a disorder.  This was void or any scientific proof or study but rather based on the assumption that the burden of proof that homosexuality is not a psychological disorder rather than the initial assumption that it is a disorder – or a “treatable condition”.  Soon after any research into homosexuality as a disorder or treatable condition has been stripped of government funding and any scientific outlet for publication.  In addition the federal courts had ruled that it is false advertising to claim any possible cure or treatment for homosexuality.

Additional considerations:  Because of the political climate resulting from the first consideration any research into homosexuality that does not support the first consideration – as with all LGBTQ political narratives, has become politically incorrect and labeled as homophobic, prejudice and bigoted.   It is my personal opinion that to claim any principle, idea or concept as indisputable, or flawed outside of scientific study, debate and open consideration – is not scientific.  We should be able to discuss, ask critical questions, do critical research to question any assumption or idea (at any time) and bring to critical scrutiny of any aspect or idea of a subject – to say any conclusion is Scientific.  I do not believe for a minute there is any possibility of open and critical science in the current climate to resolve anything concerning LGBTQ as scientific. I believe the current format too be too politically charged to be anything other than political.

As we have learned and observed throughout the history of man that politics is more of a religion than a science.  But worse than religion; politics is always directly associated with governments and the control and power of law.  Just as we have observed that government should not declare a state religion - by the same token; governments should not dictate what is unquestionable politics of the state.  The official title of governments that dictate politics - is a dictatorship.   I submit that the politics of LGBTQ is evidence of our current government entering the realm of qualifying as a dictatorship.  At least concerning the governing of LGBTQ politics.

We should be able to talk of LGBTQ both for and against (pro and con) as a 1st Amendment right of our Constitution.   We should be able to express opinion without fear to our life or property.  No one should be forced an opinion with threat of their business, livelihood or property.  At the same time every citizen regardless of their opinion concerning LGBTQ should have all the rights guaranteed under the Constitution that is enjoyed by every other citizen.

Now I would say something about individuals.  I do not believe it matters what the psychological stress that a person is under – it is never helpful to isolate them and attempt to convince them that they do not belong.  It is essential to humans to be able to function in society to believe they are loved and have a place in society.  But to be honest – I do not know how, in our current political climate that we can expect a resolution.   There are too many lies – but much worse – I believe – that there are too many unwilling to fully examine the truth.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's amazing to me how thoughtless people can be on the idea of "love". It's like most people can't get past the idea of Disney princess love they learned from watching cartoons in their childhood.

It's also amazing to me that people try and twist the nuanced meaning of words, Greek or English, it doesn't matter...to justify the carnal.

People are silly.

Love is just a word. It's a word that describes desire. Nothing more or less.

Desire, in and of itself, can be very, very good...and it can be very, very bad. It depends on what the desire is directed towards.

Loving something evil is not wholesome just because it's "love". Doesn't matter what so-called "kind" of love it is.

Your measured, rational, reasoned approach is unwelcome here! Get thee hence!

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4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's amazing to me how thoughtless people can be on the idea of "love". It's like most people can't get past the idea of Disney princess love they learned from watching cartoons in their childhood.

It's also amazing to me that people try and twist the nuanced meaning of words, Greek or English, it doesn't matter...to justify the carnal.

People are silly.

Love is just a word. It's a word that describes desire. Nothing more or less.

Desire, in and of itself, can be very, very good...and it can be very, very bad. It depends on what the desire is directed towards.

Loving something evil is not wholesome just because it's "love". Doesn't matter what so-called "kind" of love it is.

I love this post.  And by “love”, I mean . . . aw, forget it.

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8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

People are silly.

Hmmmmmm - it is likely not going to surprising you but less that 5% of the living stuff on this planet is in any way connected to a brain.

 

The Traveler

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An interesting podcast on this topic came up on my feed this evening and made me think of this thread.

 

https://leadingsaints.org/why-we-married-in-the-temple-after-20-years-in-same-sex-relationships-an-interview-with-bennett-becky-borden/

 

 

 

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On 3/12/2019 at 9:26 AM, Traveler said:

....

Additional considerations:  Because of the political climate resulting from the first consideration any research into homosexuality that does not support the first consideration – as with all LGBTQ political narratives, has become politically incorrect and labeled as homophobic, prejudice and bigoted.   It is my personal opinion that to claim any principle, idea or concept as indisputable, or flawed outside of scientific study, debate and open consideration – is not scientific.  We should be able to discuss, ask critical questions, do critical research to question any assumption or idea (at any time) and bring to critical scrutiny of any aspect or idea of a subject – to say any conclusion is Scientific.  I do not believe for a minute there is any possibility of open and critical science in the current climate to resolve anything concerning LGBTQ as scientific. I believe the current format too be too politically charged to be anything other than political.

As we have learned and observed throughout the history of man that politics is more of a religion than a science.  But worse than religion; politics is always directly associated with governments and the control and power of law.  Just as we have observed that government should not declare a state religion - by the same token; governments should not dictate what is unquestionable politics of the state.  The official title of governments that dictate politics - is a dictatorship.   I submit that the politics of LGBTQ is evidence of our current government entering the realm of qualifying as a dictatorship.  At least concerning the governing of LGBTQ politics.

....

 

The Traveler

Interestingly someone else (Tucker Carlson) has noticed and documented a dictatorship movement taking place in our government (society) on the very same day I posted.  Here is the link:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-were-becoming-an-authoritarian-society-and-the-group-in-charge-is-coming-after-fox-news

Just in case someone wants an additional witness.

 

The Traveler

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9 hours ago, Traveler said:

Interestingly someone else (Tucker Carlson) has noticed and documented a dictatorship movement taking place in our government (society) on the very same day I posted.  Here is the link:

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-were-becoming-an-authoritarian-society-and-the-group-in-charge-is-coming-after-fox-news

Just in case someone wants an additional witness.

 

The Traveler

The Southern Poverty Law Center sounds like it should have something to do with welfare or bankruptcy or something.

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