Nonbeliever's questions about your faith


Madam_Mim
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40 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

But am I getting this right? Even if someone has been THE prime example of a good person, who has helped others, was loving and caring, donating money, saving lives, followed the commandments, went to church etc. but decided - for example - to not pay tithings, that person won't get to the celestial kingdom?

Yes and no.  The overall skeleton of what you're saying is correct.  But there are problems with the definitions and characterizations.

What is your definition of "THE prime example of a good person"?  You've said

  • "Helped others."  Helped them do what?
  • Donating money?  To what cause? 
  • Saving lives?  That's ok.  But what is the motive behind it? 
  • Followed what commandments? 
  • "Went" to church.  But did not get any closer to God because of it?

Sounds like you're talking about someone "going through the motions" again.

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1 hour ago, Madam_Mim said:

But am I getting this right? Even if someone has been THE prime example of a good person, who has helped others, was loving and caring, donating money, saving lives, followed the commandments, went to church etc. but decided - for example - to not pay tithings, that person won't get to the celestial kingdom?

You're approaching this as if God were some arbitrary law giver.  No: God is the way to salvation-- His ways *are* the ultimate love, charity, goodness.  He's telling us to do things because they are good and help us become the best person possible.   In addition to the guidelines He gives us, He is also going to wipe away stains, and empower/enable us to be better.

Somebody who rejects God and His ways might be a decent person today, and even a good person by our tiny flawed mortal standards --  I know lots of folks that fit that description.  But in the ultimate big eternal picture, if they choose a path other God's, then it is a lesser path and they will be trying to fix things on their own (which is impossible).  Such a person will have glory, but it is the smallest glory of the telestrial kingdom. 

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On 3/30/2019 at 2:13 AM, Madam_Mim said:

But even if we ignore the bible stories, I would still wonder: Did he create a world that includes horrific, deadly deseases/miscarriages/natural desasters etc. even though he could have created a world without all those things?

Well, God actually created the world (earth) without horrific, deadly diseases, miscarriages, natural disasters, etc... The choice of his sons and daughters in order to experience this earth life, this natural earth life, is why we have such experiences.

The earth was first created spiritually. The fall resulted in our current state, temporal or earthly. Resurrection will determine where we all wanted to live (the glory we receive is directly connected to who we have become), and the earth will once again receive its restoration to once again an incorruptible state, Celestial glory.

The interesting thing though with regards to what you have mentioned would not even be an issue if the sons and daughters of God were obedient from the beginning and had created Zion. These diseases, these disasters, these miscarriages, and many others would be but a temporary moment in time for a small population of people.

When the sons and daughters of God act in righteousness priesthood power increases upon the earth. They began to have faith that when they command the wind and waves, the mountains and the valleys, the diseases, the wind, and any other element upon this earth obeys the voice of its Creator. Sadly, we have ourselves to blame due to disobedience and an unwilling mind and heart.

We reap what we have sowed, or as the following statement is made clear:

"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

That is just one warning, and there are promises predicated in opposition to the warnings also.

Edited by Anddenex
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16 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

But I getting this right? Even if someone has been THE prime example of a good person, who has helped others, was loving and caring, donating money, saving lives, followed the commandments, went to church etc. but decided - for example - to not pay tithings, that person won't get to the celestial kingdom?

Yes; but my question for you, Madam_Mim, is:  Given that the Terrestrial Kingdom pretty neatly matches up with what non-LDS Christians imagine “heaven” to be—

—What’s your problem with a person such as you describe winding up with a Terrestrial, rather than a Celestial glory? 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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On 4/19/2019 at 4:35 PM, Vort said:

But the common Christian/Jewish/Muslim doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is self-negating nonsense. God doesn't create "from nothing". That includes us. We ourselves are self-existent beings, and in that sense, we are co-equal with God himself. God created our spirits, and he created our bodies; but the essence of ourselves, which in LDS doctrine is called "intelligence", is uncreated. Doctrine and Covenants Section 93 teaches us:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 

Interesting! I didn't know that.

 

On 4/19/2019 at 9:29 PM, Anddenex said:

We reap what we have sowed, or as the following statement is made clear:

"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

That is just one warning, and there are promises predicated in opposition to the warnings also.

You mean natural disasters happen because people have been disobedient? 

 

On 4/20/2019 at 7:46 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Yes; but my question for you, Madam_Mim, is:  Given that the Terrestrial Kingdom pretty neatly matches up with what non-LDS Christians imagine “heaven” to be—

—What’s your problem with a person such as you describe winding up with a Terrestrial, rather than a Celestial glory? 

I was picturing someone from an LDS-family who can't be reunited with them because he didn't go to the temple. But I get it now. If you want to make sure to be with your family forever you have the choice to take the necessary actions and can't expect special treatment or god making an exception just because you've been a great person. I still don't understand why a god would care so much about certain church rituals but I'll just accept that they simply ARE very important and move on  :D

Oh but on a personal note: Terrestrial Kingdom sounds fine to me! If you're expected to get married and have children in the Celestial Kingdom (sorry if I'm talking nonsense.. I'm still not completely sure how to picture it), that wouldn't be a desirable place for me.

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Guest Mores
8 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:
You mean natural disasters happen because people have been disobedient? 

Look at it this way.  Jesus was born under a very special star that guided the wise men from the east to Jerusalem.  God apparently used stars for divine purposes.

Does this mean we're astrologists?  NO!!!  Just because God sometimes uses certain things to fulfill his purposes, does not mean that EVERY time such things happen, that they have divine meaning or cause.

Joseph (of Egypt) was known to dream dreams and interpret dreams.  And he was not the only one.  Does that mean that every dream we have is of God?  NO!!!

Jesus cast devils out of people who were thought to be insane.  Does that mean every insane person is possessed by devils?  NO!!!

I've personally known some people who suffered physical ailments because of the buffetings of evil spirits.  And once the spirits were removed, their inexplicable diseases faded away.  Does that mean every disease is caused by evil spirits?  NO!!!

God used tempest, earthquakes, and other calamities to punish the wicked or otherwise show His displeasure.  That does NOT mean that every time such things happen, that it is a sign from God.

It is the difference between someone throwing dirt in your face vs. getting some dirt in your eye when you're out in a wind storm.  One is intentional.  The other is just happenstance.

Edited by Mores
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4 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:
You mean natural disasters happen because people have been disobedient? 

Natural disasters happen because we live in a fallen world.  It's a facet of an environment that we must live in because we can't live in God's presence in our current state.

So it's not that the cause and effect is:  Disobedience results in natural disasters.  Things are rather more complex than that.

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4 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:
was picturing someone from an LDS-family who can't be reunited with them because he didn't go to the temple. But I get it now. If you want to make sure to be with your family forever you have the choice to take the necessary actions and can't expect special treatment or god making an exception just because you've been a great person. I still don't understand why a god would care so much about certain church rituals but I'll just accept that they simply ARE very important and move on  :D

For the sake of explanation, let's take the greatest person in the world that you've ever heard of and equate their entire life sum to a sum value (for illustrative purpose)-- the greatest person you're ever met is worth $1.04.  The single best person who's lived, striving by their own best efforts and nothing else = $1.27.  

A person who has embraced Christ, His goodness & gift =  $9,789,039,368,399,930,058,254,252.92

The greatest any human being can ever become on their own, is absolute pittance when compared to the moral greatness of God.  God acknowledges that the $1.27 person exists, and they can have their $1.27.  But as long as Ms $1.27 rejects God, then God can't make her any more than $1.27.   When she chooses to accept God and His gifts, then she can/will be made more by God. 

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5 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:
You mean natural disasters happen because people have been disobedient?

@unixknight - provided a portion of what I was providing; although, as he specified it is much more complex than a simple cause and effect with each natural disaster. Let's review some scripture history we have access to (although not complete).

1) Sodom and Gomorrah was a city that was destroyed due to their disobedience, and we have the mercy of our God that specifies if there is but ONE person that can be considered righteous he will not destroy any city. We don't know exactly how, people have their interpretation. It was the disobedience of this people who had been warned and remained in their wicked state.

2) The Book of Mormon before Christ comes is a result of disobedience, which even those who were covenanted people felt. All those natural disasters were a result of the disobedience of the human race.

3) Famine and pestilence can be a result of not listening, and thus the Lord takes means to humble his sons and daughters.

4) Not every natural disaster is a result of disobedience, but simply being a part of this world, and yet God has control over all natural disasters. The easiest example is the Lord in the New Testament who calms a storm. Another example is the Brother of Jared is able to move a mountain due to his faith and will of God for the people at that moment. So, God can sway or temper any natural disaster due to the faith and obedience of his sons and daughters.

So, yes and no, if we take scriptures natural disasters do indeed happen because of disobedience (look to Pharaoh and the result of his disobedience).  Natural disasters also occur as a result of our fallen world, but through faith these can be diverted as generations exercise faith and become one with the Son (just as the Son calmed the storm).

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

On 4/22/2019 at 8:34 PM, Mores said:

God used tempest, earthquakes, and other calamities to punish the wicked or otherwise show His displeasure.  That does NOT mean that every time such things happen, that it is a sign from God.

Why doesn't God stop those disasters which aren't a sign from him? I mean.. wouldn't you prevent such things from happening if you were able to?

And if it's a sign from God: Leaving aside that it seems to be quite an overreaction to kill people for sinning - what about those who are faithful, keeping the commandments etc. and get killed in a natural disaster? Are they "collateral damage"? If we all get judged after death anyway, why the additional punishments while we're living?
 

 

Something completely else: I tried to learn a little bit about Heavenly Mother and how spirit children are created but I couldn't find much information. I've read that we are all "spirit children of heavenly parents". Does Heavenly Mother actually give birth to all spirit children? Or are they created in some other way but heavenly parents take care of them?

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6 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

 

Why doesn't God stop those disasters which aren't a sign from him? I mean.. wouldn't you prevent such things from happening if you were able to?

And if it's a sign from God: Leaving aside that it seems to be quite an overreaction to kill people for sinning - what about those who are faithful, keeping the commandments etc. and get killed in a natural disaster? Are they "collateral damage"? If we all get judged after death anyway, why the additional punishments while we're living?

Speaking personally: Monday I was in a car accident (everyone is ok).  There was a blizzard, I slipped on ice, and hit the median.  

That blizzard did not appear as a sign of God's wrath- it appeared as a natural meteorological process.  As was the ice.  God didn't make me loss control- that was my accidental fault.  God didn't place the median there- the interstate construction people did, so that cars didn't crash into oncoming traffic.  

None of this had anything to do with God's wrath.  It was just an accident.  It happens.  And no, God is not to blame because He didn't magically levitate my car over the median or anything like that.  However, God is with me, and has helped me grow from this experience, rather than just being uselessly angry.  

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12 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Something completely else: I tried to learn a little bit about Heavenly Mother and how spirit children are created but I couldn't find much information. I've read that we are all "spirit children of heavenly parents". Does Heavenly Mother actually give birth to all spirit children? Or are they created in some other way but heavenly parents take care of them?

(Different reply for a different topic)

Big picture here: we do not know everything that God knows.  To quote the Articles of Faith: "9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."  (emphasis mine)

As to what is known--

Heavenly Mother: I refer you to this https://www.lds.org/topics/mother-in-heaven  Yes, you'll notice it is really short, because simply not much is known.

"How spirit children are created": the how is unknown.  We do know that each person has always existed, first as an intelligence, and then as a spirit.  But what an intelligence is vs what a spirit is, or how that change occurs, we do not know.  

"Does Heavenly Mother actually give birth to all spirit children": when you ask this question, I'm guessing you're thinking "birth" as in that thing which involves a physical baby being pushed out a physical birth canal, usually accompanied by a lot of screaming.  Well, there was no physical babies involved here, so no to that framework of thought.  We're talking about spiritual parentage here, so that's something beyond our mortal frame of reference.  

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31 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Why doesn't God stop those disasters which aren't a sign from him? I mean.. wouldn't you prevent such things from happening if you were able to?

The easy answer, there are times when God does intervene and stop a disaster (I provided one in my previous post already). There are times he doesn't. As a parent, although I know my child is going to get hurt I don't always step in because they obviously need to learn from their own experience.

There is a plan, and God will intervene according to the overall plan. God will intervene according to the faith of his children. Thus, the closer we are to God, we have the ability to calm the waves, we have the ability to accomplish a lot more. We also exercise faith, when the world is moving further away from truth that our Father in heaven is still in control. His ways are just, and one day we will realize this also.

In a wicked world a natural disaster that is not prevented will provide an opportunity to repent and change, especially if they were warned. If God diverted every disaster, atheists like yourself, would seek some natural cause to its prevention and would not give praise to him who diverted it, which already happens today.

Quote

And if it's a sign from God: Leaving aside that it seems to be quite an overreaction to kill people for sinning - what about those who are faithful, keeping the commandments etc. and get killed in a natural disaster? Are they "collateral damage"? If we all get judged after death anyway, why the additional punishments while we're living?

To the faithful, as only the faithful will see it as a sign of God, we recognize it is a part of life. We move on. Easy example, one of our general authorities was flying in a plane and they were going through a huge storm. One person who knew who he was, although they did not believe in the same religion, approached him and asked why he wasn't praying for their safety. His response was something to this nature, "I have lived a good life, and am ready to die. I don't know what farmer or farmers who are praying for rain for their crops."

Those with an eye of faith, recognize any sign from God will come with a warning if it leads to the hardship of his children. We don't blame God because his children are disobedient. If his children were obedient there wouldn't need to be any sign of such hardship.

We don't falsely accuse God like a child who falsely accuses their parents with the simple immature words, "I hate you"!, when the parent is simply doing something because they love their children. It would be nice if all the sons and daughters of God actually lived good lives according to the commandments of God, but sadly they don't, and we will face any consequence that comes our way.

Quote

Something completely else: I tried to learn a little bit about Heavenly Mother and how spirit children are created but I couldn't find much information. I've read that we are all "spirit children of heavenly parents". Does Heavenly Mother actually give birth to all spirit children? Or are they created in some other way but heavenly parents take care of them?

There isn't much known regarding Heavenly Mother and how spirit children are created. You will get different answers from probably everyone here who will provide some statement from scripture or words of modern or past authorities. All this is speculation.

I personally believe spirit offspring are born in the same way they are temporally, except there is no morning sickness, there is no pain, there is simply conception and birth, and then once again the process of becoming like our heavenly parents.

Edited by Anddenex
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On 5/3/2019 at 6:31 PM, Jane_Doe said:

That blizzard did not appear as a sign of God's wrath- it appeared as a natural meteorological process.  

This is how I view accidents like this too (I'm glad you're fine btw). And natural disasters are just that - natural disasters. 

I see no reason to believe that any of this this has to do with a god. I mean ok... it says so in the bible. But why should that be convincing? Or any more convincing than the things that are mentioned in, let's say, Hindu scriptures. 

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15 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

This is how I view accidents like this too (I'm glad you're fine btw). And natural disasters are just that - natural disasters. 

I see no reason to believe that any of this this has to do with a god. I mean ok... it says so in the bible. But why should that be convincing? Or any more convincing than the things that are mentioned in, let's say, Hindu scriptures. 

Ultimately if you desire true convincing of anything, you got to go to God and ask Him.

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9 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Ultimately if you desire true convincing of anything, you got to go to God and ask Him.

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? 
When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth. 

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4 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? 
When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth. 

Because you have it backwards...

God could easily prove himself to everyone...  Thus if this life was about "Finding Truth" God could finish it with a snap.

God already knows us... Thus if this life was about "Proving ourselves to God"  he already knows.

Thus if you really think about it this life is all about us...  Who is being proven... Us... Who are we being proven too... Ourselves.

God will ultimately render judgement and we will know such judgement is just because we will have proven ourselves to ourselves.

Thus it is more important to know "Did we constantly seek for Truth and God and did we constantly strive to live according to what we found or believed to have found?"

Because someone that looks for and strives to live truth... simply can be given more truth whenever.   Someone that stops looking or thinks it is good enough, have self imposed limits on how far God can take them.

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4 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? 
When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth. 

One day God will tell us who manufactured their own answer and who didn't.  Those who did will know it.

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Guest Mores
On 5/3/2019 at 11:19 AM, Madam_Mim said:

Why doesn't God stop those disasters which aren't a sign from him? I mean.. wouldn't you prevent such things from happening if you were able to?

Oh, wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where nothing bad ever happened?  No, actually, it would be a terrible world.  This is for three reasons. (NOTE: this is not meant to be all inclusive).

First: tests and abilitites.

Quote

To see the sun or moon is no sign of great sight.   To lift an autumn leaf is no sign of great strength.

 -- Sun Tzu

Tell me if you can relate to this with one of your own children.  I have a daughter who has a problem with keeping her temper in check.  And, of course, she always blames it on others for provoking her.  I explain to her that while the others are responsible for whatever they did to irritate her, she is still 100% responsible for how she responds to such provocation.

There is no test of her self-mastery if she never has anyone provoking her.  Not only that, but the only way to grow her self-mastery is to have many such tests.  Yes, there is a balance point.  Too much provocation will destroy nearly anyone.  But we do understand there is a "normal" amount of provocation that we're expected to withstand.  And she needs to build up to that (at least).  We even hope that we can all be as unflappable as the Savior.

Second: The light shines brightest in the darkness.

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... when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

 -- Mosiah 2:17

What we see as a catastrophe, the Lord sees as an opportunity.  And if we can start to look at these things the same way, we begin to understand the Lord.

How are we to serve others if there are never any problems?  In the third coast, we have hurricanes ...  a LOT!!!  And it may seem like some great injustice that so many people are displaced, harmed, even killed, in such events.  Such a loss of life, health, property, daily plans, etc. is indeed a sad time.  But these are also such great opportunities for people to show how good they can be.  In that darkness, the light shines.

During Hurricane Harvey there were thousands (possibly millions) of people who had lost their livelihood, homes, even family and pets.  In the midst of this there were HUNDREDS of stories of first responders and other good Samaritans who went far out of their way to serve those in need.  The most famous was a man in the Houston area named Jim McIngvale (aka "Mattress Mack") who is a local celebrity and businessman who owns a chain of furniture stores.  His story is worth telling again and again.

He looked at the maps of flooded areas vs a map of his stores full of mattresses.  He contacted those managers and instructed them to open their doors to displaced people.  He was literally the only person in all of Houston who had enough beds for all the people who needed them.  And he offered them.  He took the Millions of dollars of loss in his inventory to give a little more comfort to the people who had lost everything.  He then took money out of his own pockets to cater food to all these locations from the local favorite restaurants.  He not only gave beds, but also blankets, and any other furniture that could be used.  He paid for porta-potties to be brought in.  He sent out his own furniture trucks to pick up the stranded and homeless.  And he did so much more.

When asked about what inspired him to make such a monumental gesture,  he simply said,"Well, people needed beds.  We had beds.  It was just basic math.  It wasn't any more complicated than that." 

Can such a light shine when we just have our "everyday" problems?

Third: The price we pay.

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What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated.

 -- Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

What if all the pains we've had in life were the only way we could pay for the blessings we've had?  We can see the connection between having to work really hard and gaining the benefit of that work.  But with spiritual things, the price is not always so clearly connected to the benefit.

Jesus Christ suffered an infinite Atonement.  He suffered more than anyone can even imagine.  Why?  There was a price to be paid.  An infinite price for an infinite blessing.  We are asked to go through much less suffering so that we can even have a glimpse of understanding of the price He paid.  And we suffer, so we can obtain a blessing.  The connection is not so clear.  It needs to be explained.

I've lived in third world countries.  And in many ways they have it worse.  But they also have it better.  We talk of "first world problems".  We say it like we should stop complaining so much.  But at the same time, I realize that many in the third world have it better than we do.  There are a lot of things that they don't need to be worried about.  The thing is that the absence of all that stress and all that complaining simply means that they will never make progress.  The connection is not so clear.  It needs to be explained.

When I look back on my life, I see all the heartache, all the trials I've had to endure.  And if I had to do it all over again, I could have done some things to avoid those.  And I really wish I hadn't had to have them happen at all.  But I consider that if I were told that all my trials were the only way I could pay for the life I have today, then I realize that it would all be worth it.

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6 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? 
When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth. 

You can't control other people and their search for Truth.  You can only do your best responsibility to learn and grow closer to Truth.   Don't let what other people think even slow you down. 

 

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:19 PM, Madam_Mim said:

Why doesn't God stop those disasters which aren't a sign from him? I mean.. wouldn't you prevent such things from happening if you were able to?

I might, unless I felt like adversity would teach  the lesson better.

Here's what I mean.  I've got a bunch of kids.  I teach them stuff.  Sometimes, life is the better teacher.  I let my kids learn from their failures as well as from adversity that comes about through no fault of their own.  "Dad, my toy broke even though I was being careful!"  Ok, that's a teachable moment.  I now have an opportunity to teach them how to repair the toy using tools and skills they didn't have before.

Sometimes I don't even get involved.  Last week my oldest daughter's car broke down and my middle son went out of his way to go over and fix it for her.  (He's a professional auto tech.)  It was adversity.  It was an unforeseen problem that my daughter couldn't have avoided... But look at the result.  Her relationship with her brother was strengthened.  (They'd been a bit distant lately from each other.)  Her car now functions better than it did.  My son will gain blessings from Heaven for his selfless act of service.  

Think about every natural disaster you've heard of.  Think of the stories that go along with them.  Stories of people giving of themselves to go help.  Stories of heroism.  That's spirituality!  Yes, there's huge loss, enormous tragedy... But that's when we need each other the most, and that's when human beings are at their very best. 

Ask yourself this:  Would we, as a civilization, be better off without that?

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:19 PM, Madam_Mim said:

And if it's a sign from God: Leaving aside that it seems to be quite an overreaction to kill people for sinning - what about those who are faithful, keeping the commandments etc. and get killed in a natural disaster? Are they "collateral damage"? If we all get judged after death anyway, why the additional punishments while we're living?

One day this body I'm in will die.  I have no idea when or how.  I may die in 40 years in my sleep.  I may be killed in a violent car accident in 5 hours.  Somebody might murder me in 5 years.  I may be killed by a tornado in 10 months.  

What difference does it make?  Death is death.  Whether my card gets punched in an hour or in a decade isn't going to matter nearly as much as the state of my spirit and my relationship with Heavenly Father when the moment comes.  If I die in an avalanche knowing that I've done my best to live as the Savior would have me live, then I wouldn't regard that as the worst thing that ever happened to me at all.  If my spiritual state is strong, why should I fear death?  This is why it's important not to procrastinate.  If Heavenly Father at some point decides to go all Old Testament and destroy a city I happen to be in - well, my life belongs to Him anyway.  Reminds me of a great quote from a tabletop sci fi wargame, of all places:

"My sword belongs to the creator. My pain belongs to the creator.My heart belongs to the creator. Claim them he may; they will ever serve him."

-Grand Exemplar Kreoss.

7 hours ago, Madam_Mim said:

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? 
When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth. 

I've asked myself that question a LOT.  How can we know that?  Shall we just assume that every Catholic, every Muslim, every Buddhist who claims to have had a spiritual experience is somehow just delusional/mistaken/lying?

The solution is this:  You're asking the wrong question.  We cannot know what goes on in the mind and heart of any person besides our own self.  We do know what goes on in our own mind and heart.  

In the late spring of 1998 I was directly instructed by my Creator to join the Church.  I know this to be true with greater certainty than any other piece of knowledge I have.  I don't know what God says to anybody else or Why.  Hypothetically, if a Muslim friend tells me he's had a direct experience with God and it has strengthened his faith in Islam, that's fine.  It doesn't change what He said to me.  I can speculate about why that might happen.  Maybe God knows my friend's heart and knows that for whatever reason, he would be in better spiritual health through Islam, at least for now.  Maybe my friend is mistaken.  I dunno.  Don't really care either.  My responsibility is to obey my Heavenly Father, not to get into other peoples' spiritual business.

For that matter, my telling you about my personal experience doesn't mean much to you (or anybody else) either.  Why should it?  I certainly don't expect it to.  If you pray to Heavenly Father for answers then whatever answer you get will be for you alone.  I can guarantee you He will not answer your prayer by saying "Listen to unixknight.  Do what I told him to do."  

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On 5/6/2019 at 3:46 AM, Madam_Mim said:

I know we already talked about this, but: Let's say I keep praying and one day I feel that god answered me and makes me believe that this church is the right one - how would I know that I'm any different from those billions of people who claim the same thing about their religion? 
When so many people get different answers, praying doesn't seem to be the best way to find the truth. 

It is the best way to find truth.  But how much truth is different for each person.

Everyone gets the truth they are prepared to accept and live.  God does not give us any trials beyond which we are able to handle.  So it goes with truth as well.  The other people who get a different answer are not wrong.  At least most of the time (IMO).  They're getting guidance to the truth that they are ready for.  If you're ready for the restored gospel in its fulness, then you're going to receive such an answer.  Most people are not ready for it.  So, for now, they receive just as much light and knowledge that they are prepared to handle.

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Where I live, we don't have big natural disasters, there are no hurricanes, earthquakes or deadly floods and we're really happy about that!  I think there are enough other ways to help people and show heroism - no deadly catastrophes necessary. 

But again, even though I can't really relate to them, it's interesting to read your answers and they lead me to another question:
What about deadly diseases or miscarriages? Do you believe they have a purpose too? 
 

22 hours ago, unixknight said:

In the late spring of 1998 I was directly instructed by my Creator to join the Church.  I know this to be true with greater certainty than any other piece of knowledge I have.  I don't know what God says to anybody else or Why.  Hypothetically, if a Muslim friend tells me he's had a direct experience with God and it has strengthened his faith in Islam, that's fine.  It doesn't change what He said to me.  I can speculate about why that might happen.  Maybe God knows my friend's heart and knows that for whatever reason, he would be in better spiritual health through Islam, at least for now.  Maybe my friend is mistaken.  I dunno.  Don't really care either.  My responsibility is to obey my Heavenly Father, not to get into other peoples' spiritual business. 

I'm just curious: In this scenario you really wouldn't consider just for a second that it might be the other way around and the Muslim friend got the "right" message and it's actually Allah who thinks that you are in a better spiritual health in your church for now? Or would that thought not even cross your mind? 

23 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

You can't control other people and their search for Truth.  You can only do your best responsibility to learn and grow closer to Truth.   Don't let what other people think even slow you down. 

My "problem" is: Even if I ignore everything I've heard other people say about their belief and just focus on my own experiences and pray about this - if I honestly try to find the truth, I can't just rely on my feelings. I've mentioned this before: Just because we feel something really strongly doesn't mean we're right.  
As some of you already said, I can't expect God to prove himself to us. For me personally, that's ok (although a little more evidence would have been helpful and prevented some wars and deaths) - but then he also shouldn't expect me to follow his rules as long as we can't be certain that he even exists. Why would I do that? That seems completely illogical to me. But anyways... I'm talking too much about myself again. 

 

Oh, something else I recently thought of:

Do you take the Adam and Eve story literally or is it viewed as a metaphor? (I've read different opinions about this from catholic authors, that's why I'm asking)

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4 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

But again, even though I can't really relate to them, it's interesting to read your answers and they lead me to another question:
What about deadly diseases or miscarriages? Do you believe they have a purpose too? 

I don't know if I'd necessarily say they have "purpose."  I think sometimes things happen because God causes them, and sometimes He doesn't cause them but they can be used for good.  That being said, yes.  Absolutely.  Every bad thing that happens in this world can either improve us spiritually or not.  It's up to us to choose how we respond.

4 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

I'm just curious: In this scenario you really wouldn't consider just for a second that it might be the other way around and the Muslim friend got the "right" message and it's actually Allah who thinks that you are in a better spiritual health in your church for now? Or would that thought not even cross your mind? 

Sure that's occurred to me.  And what if it is?  My response would be the same.  If Allah is the true incarnation of God and He is telling me to join the LDS Church, then I'd better do it, don't you think?  😉

4 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

My "problem" is: Even if I ignore everything I've heard other people say about their belief and just focus on my own experiences and pray about this - if I honestly try to find the truth, I can't just rely on my feelings. I've mentioned this before: Just because we feel something really strongly doesn't mean we're right.  

At the end of the day though, your own experience, feelings and senses are all you have.  My own senses and feelings didn't teach me calculus, but I still have to rely on them to correctly convey calculus to me as instructed by my teacher or professor.  Yes, another person was involved in the process of me learning calculus, but I still had to rely on my own wetware to get it. 

Are my feelings right or wrong?  All I can do is trust my experience.  It's the only tool each of us has in common.  I know I'm not prone to hallucinations.  I don't have flights of fantasy.  I haven't ever had a similar experience about anything else.  I know the voice of my Father in Heaven.  I'm not going to make myself doubt it just for the sake of calling myself an enlightened skeptic ;)

4 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

As some of you already said, I can't expect God to prove himself to us. For me personally, that's ok (although a little more evidence would have been helpful and prevented some wars and deaths) - but then he also shouldn't expect me to follow his rules as long as we can't be certain that he even exists. 

But we can be certain. I know you aren't but I am, and I'm not alone in that.

4 minutes ago, Madam_Mim said:

Do you take the Adam and Eve story literally or is it viewed as a metaphor? (I've read different opinions about this from catholic authors, that's why I'm asking)

That's a complicated question to ask a member of this Church.   The simplest answer I can offer is that yes, I believe it to be literally true, but heavy with metaphor.

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