The Democratic Party's "leftward shift"

[Guest MormonGator]

I think both parties have taken a hard right/hard left turn in the past twenty years. We used to have these things called "southern democrats" like Zell  Miller and Sam Nunn (among others) who were moderates, and some were even conservative. Same with northern republicans like Jim Jeffords and Olympia Snowe who were moderates, sometimes even liberal. Not so anymore. A moderate couldn't even survive their own primary. 

When you are far right wing/far left wing, you begin to delude yourself about many things, but you dive into thinking that "anyone who disagrees with me on one issue is a moderate". So you can have a pro--choice, anti death penalty, pro gay marriage, pro tax liberal who thinks marriage should be between a man and woman and they'd be called "moderate" or "conservative". Same with a pro-life, pro death penalty, pro traditional marriage republican who dares to say something negative about Donald Trump. They'd get crushed in their primary too. 

It disgusts me. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by MormonGator

[bytebear]

I would prefer a party that was for small government, weed out corruption, fiscally conservative, and state run social programs.  Is that too much to ask?  I hate that congress even discusses welfare, health care, education, infrastructure, etc. etc, let alone tries to run them.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, bytebear said:

I would prefer a party that was for small government, weed out corruption, fiscally conservative, and state run social programs.  Is that too much to ask?  I hate that congress even discusses welfare, health care, education, infrastructure, etc. etc, let alone tries to run them.

I'd like a party that agrees with me on everything too, but that's not how the real world works. I accept you have to be an adult, hold your nose, and vote for the lesser evil. Welcome to reality. Where the Rolling Stones were right. You can't always get what you want. I love that song, by the way. My dad is a big Stones fan. He raised me right. 

[Vort]

16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think both parties have taken a hard right/hard left turn in the past twenty years

I don't think so, MG. The Democrats have gone far to the Left, certainly. But can you make a list of things the Republicans have gone toward the Right on? For example, a half-dozen items that the Republican Party is more conservative about today than, say, twenty years ago?

I don't believe you can. I don't believe anyone can. That's because the Republicans have not gone "hard right". That's a mainstream media talking point, not truth. The truth is that the Democrats have veered very hard left, while the Republicans have gone leftward but not nearly as drastically. They have not gone rightward. That's simply not so.

Are the Republicans more conservative/rightward than 20 years ago regarding:

• Abortion?
• Government spending?
• Firearm ownership?
• Free trade/protectionism?
• Religious freedom?
• Free speech?
• Homosexual acceptance/"gay rights"?
• Military spending?
• Military actions worldwide?
• Education and student loan provisions?
• Racial entitlements?
• Border security?
• Immigration?

You may possibly be able to argue that the Republicans are slightly (not greatly) more "rightward" on the last two issues than they were 20 years ago. I think you would be wrong, and I think a fair review of comparative positions would demonstrate that today's Republicans are not more "rightward" on those two issues than they were in the late 1990s. But I grant that the argument can at least be made. But that's it.

Now do the same for the Democrats on the above issues, seeing how much further leftward they are.

Saying that "the Democrats have gone left and the Republicans have gone right" is a false equivalency. I realize it's the narrative that the media pushes, but the media are liars. It's a false narrative, as any honest person who actually looks and researches will quickly discover—and as any honest person over the age of 40 who has been paying attention for the last two decades can quickly attest to.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't think so, MG. The Democrats have gone far to the Left, certainly. But can you make a list of things the Republicans have gone toward the Right on?

Would Donald Trump have beaten Bush in 2000? John McCain in 2008? Romney in 2012? No, that's why he didn't run. The GOP still had "moderates" in their party back then, enough to stop a lunatic like him. 

The republicans moved right with his election, though they've been moving towards the right since the Clinton impeachment hearings. 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Would Donald Trump have beaten Bush in 2000? John McCain in 2008? Romney in 2012? No, that's why he didn't run. The GOP still had "moderates" in their party back then, enough to stop a lunatic like him. 

The republicans moved right with his election, though they've been moving towards the right since the Clinton impeachment hearings. 

 

Hello... Trump is not "right".  His supporters also can't be considered "right".  They are issues-oriented.  For example - Trump supporters don't care about gay anything except for the populist complaints against ridiculous anti-science LGBT thing about bathrooms and Title IX and pronouns.  They care about... Illegal Immigration, Economy, etc. etc.  And in those things, it's only considered Right because the Left has gone open borders stupid.  It wasn't too long ago when Obama was waxing poetic about strong borders.  And anti-regulation used to be a Left thing until they adopted Environmentalists and Climate Change rhetoric.

The candidate of the Right was Ted Cruz.

Edited March 25, 2019 by anatess2

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Would Donald Trump have beaten Bush in 2000? John McCain in 2008? Romney in 2012? No, that's why he didn't run. The GOP still had "moderates" in their party back then, enough to stop a lunatic like him. 

The republicans moved right with his election, though they've been moving towards the right since the Clinton impeachment hearings. 

Donald Trump is not a conservative. He's a populist. The Bushes were measurably more conservative than Trump, albeit less populist. And McCain? He was an anomaly, a compromise candidate that had no real chance of winning. He was the Republicans handing the presidency over to the Democrats.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Vort said:

Donald Trump is not a conservative. He's a populist. The Bushes were measurably more conservative than Trump, albeit less populist. And McCain? He was an anomaly, a compromise candidate that had no real chance of winning. He was the Republicans handing the presidency over to the Democrats.

That's where we differ. He (Trump) is a right winger. You can be both populist and right wing. And he is. 

Here is how I see it-Roy Moore, another right winger, beat a guy who five years ago would have been considered "Conservative", but because in 2018 everything is taken to a dangerous extreme, he wasn't viewed as conservative enough. that creeps me out. It's not just him. DeSantis down here beat Putnam, Akin beat whatshisface in Missouri several years ago, and so on.The moderates are dead. 

So we agree 100% that the democrats have lurched leftward. It might surprise you, but we also agree that the democrats lurching leftward is disturbing. What we disagree on is that the republicans became more extreme as well.  

[anatess2]

P.S. The thing the left likes to call the "alt-right" supporters of Trump?  The fact of the matter is - they're not really even on the right.  They just happen to be anti-left.  Basically, anybody to the right of Stalin.

Edited March 25, 2019 by anatess2

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Here is how I see it-Roy Moore, another right winger, beat a guy who five years ago would have been considered "Conservative", but because in 2018 everything is taken to a dangerous extreme, he wasn't viewed as conservative enough. that creeps me out. It's not just him. DeSantis down here beat Putnam, Akin beat whatshisface in Missouri several years ago, and so on.The moderates are dead. 

Ugh... Roy Moore did not get elected because of the left's sex-abuse accusations against him.  Roy Moore ran as a Trump-rubber-stamper - anti-establishment.  Which is why he won the primaries.

DeSantis beat Putnam because Putnam is establishment and Trump endorsed DeSantis.

Trump is not an extremist.  Trump is ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT.  Punk rock.  Establishment is BOTH Right and Left.  And it is through this anti-establishmentism that COMMON SENSE Conservatism gained traction.  There's no Common Sense Liberalism right now.  They got clobbered by Corrupt Clinton and Crazy Bernie.

Edited March 25, 2019 by anatess2

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

That's where we differ. He (Trump) is a right winger. You can be both populist and right wing. And he is.

Other than the two related issues I mentioned, on what issues is Trump a "right-winger"? Compare Trump's position with GHWBush's position on abortion, "gay rights", firearm ownership and related Second Amendment issues, etc., and make a convincing argument that Trump is in any reasonable measure more "right-wing" than GHWBush. I pick Bush exactly because he was considered less "conservative" than Reagan, and took considerable flak for that. So if Trump can't beat Bush Sr. for right-wingedness—and he can't—I do not see how anyone can reasonably argue that the Republicans have gone hard right.

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So we agree 100% that the democrats have lurched leftward. It might surprise you, but we also agree that the democrats lurching leftward is disturbing. What we disagree on is that the republicans became more extreme as well.  

Again, just show on issues arguments that this is true. Make the case based on issues, not on media-driven emotional arguments. I do not believe it can be done.

[Guest MormonGator]

@Vort-

You need to look at the big picture. 

When you have people calling Mitch McConnell  a "moderate" (Lifetime ACU rating 96%) that's disturbing to me. That shows that the GOP,  like the Democrats, have lost their mind. 

And when you (generic!) are so right wing you think McConnell (who, by the way, I have respect for) or anyone else who has a 96% ACU rating a "moderate" than yes. You've (generic!) have lost your mind as well. 

This is a problem. When the GOP base thinks that The Weekly Standard/National Review are liberal or establishment, then yes, the GOP has lurched right. 

So to me, yes, the base of the GOP has lurched right. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Vort-

You need to look at the big picture. 

When you have people calling Mitch McConnell  a "moderate" (Lifetime ACU rating 96%) that's disturbing to me. That shows that the GOP,  like the Democrats, have lost their mind. 

And when you (generic!) are so right wing you think McConnell (who, by the way, I have respect for) or anyone else who has a 96% ACU rating a "moderate" than yes. You've (generic!) have lost your mind as well. 

This is a problem. When the GOP base thinks that The Weekly Standard/National Review are liberal or establishment, then yes, the GOP has lurched right. 

So to me, yes, the base of the GOP has lurched right. 

ALL ESTABLISHMENT - Pro Open Borders, Pro War Machine, Pro Crony Capitalists, Pro Big Government, Globalists - the lot of them.

McConnell is Dubya in turtle armor.

Edited March 25, 2019 by anatess2

[Vort]

9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You need to look at the big picture. 

The big picture. Okay. Here are the Republican (losing) 1992 Presidential planks.

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/11/us/1992-campaign-republican-platform-gop-drafting-stand-for-total-ban-abortion.html

Compare Trump to those, and tell me again how rightward the Republican Party has veered.

MG, you want the narrative to be true, because it means you get to take the middle path of "a pox on both their houses". But it's not true. The narrative is false. The Republican Party has not veered rightward, no matter how hard the NY Times wants to insist it has.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

MG, you want the narrative to be true

Not really, I'm actually more conservative then you think I am. I haven't voted for a democrat in years. But I think both parties have taken a giant lurch leftward/rightward. I'm not viewed as a conservative because I don't see things strictly through idealogical viewpoints. 

In fact, that I'm not viewed as conservative even though I'm pro gun, anti tax, pro death penalty, and would shrink 95% of the federal government sort of shows that the parties have shifted to the dangerous extremes. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

In fact, that I'm not viewed as conservative even though I'm pro gun, anti tax, pro death penalty and would shrink 95% of the federal government sort of shows that the parties have shifted to the dangerous extremes. 

You're not viewed conservative because you're not pro tradition.  This is not a right-ward shift.  This has always been Conservatism since... forever - traditional families, pro-life, pro Constitution (anti bench legislation).

[Guest MormonGator]

@Vort

(it's a joke everyone) 

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Vort

(it's a joke everyone) 

This should be updated to read, "I only seem liberal because I believe that hurricanes are caused by corporate Republicans and their denials of global warming which will surely kill us all within 19 years."

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

This should be updated to read, "I only seem liberal because I believe that hurricanes are caused by corporate Republicans and their denials of global warming which will surely kill us all within 19 years."

That's awesome. 

[Guest MormonGator]

@Vort, dude, I told you I was a right wing republican. I also think global warming is a giant fraud! I told you I was a John Birch Society guy! 

😉

Edited March 25, 2019 by MormonGator

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

@Vort, dude, I told you I was a right wing republican. I also think global warming is a giant fraud! I told you I was a John Birch society guy! 

😉

I would link to The Chad Mitchell Trio's "John Birch Society", which I listened to as a very young child. But since I've been old enough to understand, I actually really hate that song, which does nothing but mock people who, let's face it, for the most part were right about the threats of Communism.

[mirkwood]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

who, let's face it, for the most part were right about the threats of Communism.

A freekin' men

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

A freekin' men

 

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

for the most part were right about the threats of Communism.

Agree totally with both of you. 

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Agree totally with both of you. 

Careful. Agreeing with people who talk about the John Birch Society without condemning it will likely get you listed with the SPLC as a terrorist organization.

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

Careful. Agreeing with people who talk about the John Birch Society without condemning it will likely get you listed with the SPLC as a terrorist organization.

And, and, and I'm even in favor of a baker turning away a gay couple if she doesn't agree with their lifestyle. So I'll never be allowed to go to a cocktail party in Seattle. 

Speaking of location, I'm the one who lives in a red state pal.