Word of Wisdom question

[unixknight]

1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Yeah, most people mistakenly assume that all of the alcohol cooks out when it is heated for cooking. Not true. I also agree with what others have said. We all know where to draw the line, and if in doubt, pray about it. What is it in coffee that makes it bad? Many in the church have their own thoughts, but perhaps we shouldn't ingest it simply because the Lord has asked us not to.

This.  "Because God said so." really is the core of it, and if we obey faithfully then we will receive the benefits.  

When the WoW was first given, it was at a time when it was commonly believed, even among physicians, that things like opiates (like laudanum), cocaine and tobacco were good for the mind and the body.  No doubt conversations happened at the time where people thought members were odd if they obeyed the WoW.  "If your Prophet really is hearing from God, how come he doesn't seem to know what doctors know?  Hmmmmmmmmmmm?"  But who had the last laugh there?

So when people in my life look at me funny and say things like "What's wrong with tea?"  or "You know, doctors say a bit of red wine every evening is good for you."  I just shrug.  I dunno why.  I just do.  

And yeah, a lot of members assume caffeine is the reason for the prohibition on coffee/tea... even to the point where official functions discouraged caffeinated sodas.  I feel like that's trying to hard to calculate the rationale and virtue signal by doing more than what's expressly defined.  (Not in all cases, but many.)  I was glad to see that's beginning to loosen and fewer people are saying it.  When my son got married in the Temple, the  reception was held at his ward building and dark sodas weren't allowed -- because of the possibility of stains, not the caffeine.  That seemed pretty reasonable to me.

[TheRedHen]

My mother-in-law hasn't been to the temple in 54 years, nor has she attended church in all that time.  Her husband died a couple of years ago and the ladies in her neighborhood have gotten her back into attending weekly.  Last week she showed me her temple recommend that she got the day before.  I said that's wonderful - want me to help carry your bottles of wine, bags of coffee and coffee maker out to the trash?  She looked at me and said her bishop said that's no longer a requirement to go to the temple and that she can keep drinking both for medicinal purposes.  I see a trend lately - based on various conversations that I've had with various people, that there seems to be a very relaxed tone regarding the Word of Wisdom these days.  Anyone else have a similar experience?

[niyr]

On 3/17/2019 at 7:53 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

 

https://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

I stand corrected, thanks.

[omegaseamaster75]

On 3/17/2019 at 1:17 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

One of my kids thinks that is alright to put coffee in baked items. I feel it is against the word of wisdom, but my wife thinks it is ok. I have spent my entire 47 years avoiding coffee, tea and alcohol.

Any thoughts?

Yes, it's ok.

[Nordic saint]

I wouldn't do it. Whether you drink it or use it as flavouring doesn't make a big difference chemically... it's basically still the same thing, just without water (which is probably the most healthy part of coffee 😂)

 

[NeuroTypical]

On 3/18/2019 at 10:28 AM, TheRedHen said:

I said that's wonderful - want me to help carry your bottles of wine, bags of coffee and coffee maker out to the trash?  She looked at me and said her bishop said that's no longer a requirement to go to the temple and that she can keep drinking both for medicinal purposes. 
...
Anyone else have a similar experience?

No, I've never had a similar experience.  "Do you keep the word of wisdom" is still a question, and I can't explain why a bishop would say otherwise (or why a member would claim a bishop has said otherwise).

Edited March 24, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[Maureen]

19 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

No, I've never had a similar experience.  "Do you keep the word of wisdom" is still a question, and I can't explain why a bishop would say otherwise (or why a member would claim a bishop has said otherwise).

If a doctor advised their patient (a Latter-day Saint) that coffee would help their migraines and prescribed it as medicinal use; and this was explained to the bishop; you would think that the bishop was wrong in allowing this member a temple recommend?

M.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Maureen said:

If a doctor advised their patient (a Latter-day Saint) that coffee would help their migraines and prescribed it as medicinal use; and this was explained to the bishop; you would think that the bishop was wrong in allowing this member a temple recommend?

M.

Proscribed medical stuff is a permissible exception (this was actually talked about earlier in this thread).  Obviously you would try to find a different medication that didn't violate the WoW if possible.  

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, Maureen said:

If a doctor advised their patient (a Latter-day Saint) that coffee would help their migraines and prescribed it as medicinal use; and this was explained to the bishop; you would think that the bishop was wrong in allowing this member a temple recommend?

So, we're all about following competent medical advice based on sound science.  That said, I would have a few questions:

- Did the doctor proscribe coffee, or did he proscribe caffeine, with coffee as one way to get it?  
- If the prescription was actually for coffee and not caffeine, what medical research is the doctor relying on?  Where is this research published?  
- Did the doctor know the patient was LDS and we have a health code specifying no coffee or tea?

I'm thinking in this case, it's entirely possible that a random person with a story like TheRedHen relays, is basically not serious about following the WoW and is just selling a justification about how she doesn't have to.  I would be willing to bet ten dollars that's more likely the reality here, instead of a bishop saying "that's no longer a requirement to go to the temple and that she can keep drinking both for medicinal purposes."

(No disrespect intended either to TRH, or the mother-in-law in question.  I'm trying to separate my general beliefs about what generally happens, from the thirdhand account involving people I don't know.)

Edited March 24, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[unixknight]

16 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I would be willing to bet ten dollars that's more likely the reality here, instead of a bishop saying "that's no longer a requirement to go to the temple and that she can keep drinking both for medicinal purposes."

This is the element that I'm stuck on.  It's very hard for me to picture a Bishop saying that it's "no longer a requirement."  If that were so, it would be a HUGE change and would quickly become common knowledge.

[Vort]

19 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Proscribed medical stuff is a permissible exception (this was actually talked about earlier in this thread).

 

17 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Did the doctor proscribe coffee, or did he proscribe caffeine, with coffee as one way to get it?

Gentle writer(s),

You keep using that word, etc. The word you seek is probably "prescribe".

pro·scribe

/prōˈskrīb/

verb

• forbid, especially by law.

"strikes remained proscribed in the armed forces"

• denounce or condemn.

"certain practices that the Catholic Church proscribed, such as polygyny"

pre·scribe

/prəˈskrīb/

verb

• (of a medical practitioner) advise and authorize the use of (a medicine or treatment) for someone, especially in writing.

"Dr. Greene prescribed magnesium sulfate"

synonyms:

order, advise, authorize, direct "your doctor may prescribe an antibiotic"

Helpfully,
Mister Vort

[Guest Mores]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

You keep using that word, etc. The word you seek is probably "prescribe".

 

Helpfully,
Mister Vort

As I said, I think we read the same columns.

[raven2]

I find this words of wisdom discussion interesting. In Mormon culture we seem to try and make the different aspects of the words of wisdom carry different weight. Example: alcohol/drugs is bad, tea and coffee is next but eating meat outside of winter or time of famine is optional. 

I would say most active members would say:

drinking alcohol/taking illegal drugs breaks the word of wisdom;

coffee and tea seems to have some debate on the types or how it is used;

eating meat only in winter or time of famine doesn’t count.

As a culture what has made us feel some parts should be strictly observed and other parts like meat is optional? I would say out of everything meat has the most clarity in D&C yet is least followed, if at all.

quick example: many wards have some type of cookout during the summer season (Pioneer Day) which usually seem to have lots of burgers, hotdogs or bacon if it’s a breakfast. No one says a word about how these events could be breaking the word of wisdom. Yet if we served coffee or tea at the event the leadership would we shocked. 

I would normally say this is an extreme example but I am not so sure it really is.

Edited March 28, 2019 by raven2

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, raven2 said:

I find this words of wisdom discussion interesting. In Mormon culture we seem to try and make the different aspects of the words of wisdom carry different weight. Example: alcohol/drugs is bad, tea and coffee is next but eating meat outside of winter or time of famine is optional. 

I don't think so.

12 minutes ago, raven2 said:

I would say most active members would say:

drinking alcohol/taking illegal drugs breaks the word of wisdom;

Agree.

12 minutes ago, raven2 said:

coffee and tea seems to have some debate on the types or how it is used;

Disagree. I think that most active members would agree that drinking coffee or (tea leaf) tea is contrary to the Word of Wisdom, regardless of temperature, caffeine content, etc.

12 minutes ago, raven2 said:

eating meat only in winter or time of famine doesn’t count.

Oversimplification. They would probably just point out the obvious fact that that point of the Word of Wisdom has not been stressed by our divinely appointed leaders and is not an explicit part of temple recommend interviews. I think lots of active members wonder about that phrase and what it means to their situation.

12 minutes ago, raven2 said:

As a culture what has made us feel some parts should be strictly observed and other parts like meat is optional? I would say out of everything meat has the most clarity in D&C yet is least followed, if at all.

I suspect that most people realize that using habit-forming and/or cancer-causing drugs is of much greater concern than whether or not you eat meat. Paul made it clear that one of the signs of apostasy in the last days would be forbidding the eating of meat. Doctrine and Covenants 49:18 is somewhat ambiguously worded, but taken in context and along with Paul's counsel to Timothy, it seems to say essentially the same thing, that those who insist that others not eat meat are not ordained of God.

12 minutes ago, raven2 said:

quick example: many wards have some type of cookout during the summer season (Pioneer Day) which usually seem to have lots of burgers, hotdogs or bacon if it’s a breakfast. No one says a word about how these events could be breaking the word of wisdom. Yet if we served coffee or tea at the event the leadership would we shocked.

Well...duh. That seems pretty obvious. The strange thing is not that we freely eat meat but would be shocked at a ward activity serving coffee or tea. The strange thing is that you find this fact strange, almost as if you have no exposure to LDS culture or how the Church teaches its doctrine.

[raven2]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I don't think so.

Agree.

Disagree. I think that most active members would agree that drinking coffee or (tea leaf) tea is contrary to the Word of Wisdom, regardless of temperature, caffeine content, etc.

Oversimplification. They would probably just point out the obvious fact that that point of the Word of Wisdom has not been stressed by our divinely appointed leaders and is not an explicit part of temple recommend interviews. I think lots of active members wonder about that phrase and what it means to their situation.

I suspect that most people realize that using habit-forming and/or cancer-causing drugs is of much greater concern than whether or not you eat meat. Paul made it clear that one of the signs of apostasy in the last days would be forbidding the eating of meat. Doctrine and Covenants 49:18 is somewhat ambiguously worded, but taken in context and along with Paul's counsel to Timothy, it seems to say essentially the same thing, that those who insist that others not eat meat are not ordained of God.

Well...duh. That seems pretty obvious. The strange thing is not that we freely eat meat but would be shocked at a ward activity serving coffee or tea. The strange thing is that you find this fact strange, almost as if you have no exposure to LDS culture or how the Church teaches its doctrine.

- I think this thread and other threads I have seen would show there are many opinions and different points of view on some aspects of the Word of Wisdom among active members of the church, from what types of teas are ok to alcohol in food, etc.

- I am not sure that having a certain aspect of the Word of Wisdom have less focus makes it not part of the Word of Wisdom. The question in the Temple Recommend is "do you keep the Word of Wisdom which includes the use of drugs or abuse prescription medication". No coffee, tea, alcohol or meat are specified in the interview question.

- I would agree that using proven medical knowledge to provide supporting reasons to keep the word of wisdom has plenty of value.

- Paul's counsel - I think the Word of Wisdom provides additional clarity that meat should only be eaten in the winter and at times of famine. Its great to have additional knowledge through modern scripture. I would also say the wording is not ambiguously written.

- I think the Prophet Joseph Smith (and other later day Prophets) have provided some additional teaching on this topic. I think the season of the year is also very interesting to note as well.

"During the Zion’s Camp expedition in the summer of 1834, an incident occurred that allowed a practical application of concern for animal life. As related by the Prophet Joseph Smith in his history: In pitching my tent we found three massasaugas or prairie rattlesnakes, which the brethren were about to kill, but I said, ‘Let them alone—don’t hurt them! How will the serpent ever lose his venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless, before the brute creation; and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the sucking child can play with the serpent in safety.’ The brethren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek. I exhorted the brethren not to kill a serpent, bird, or an animal of any kind during our journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger.” (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 2, pp. 71–72.)

- Well...duh. That seems pretty obvious. The strange thing is not that we freely eat meat but would be shocked at a ward activity serving coffee or tea. The strange thing is that you find this fact strange, almost as if you have no exposure to LDS culture or how the Church teaches its doctrine.

As I stated it was intended as an example to create thought on this issues and to generate other members points of view.

"..almost as if you have no exposure to LDS culture or how the Church teaches its doctrine." Not sure how this impacts the discussion. This type of ending statement feels as if you wish to discredit comments do to your perceptions you generated by my 1 post. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by raven2

[Guest Scott]

1 hour ago, raven2 said:

quick example: many wards have some type of cookout during the summer season (Pioneer Day) which usually seem to have lots of burgers, hotdogs or bacon if it’s a breakfast. No one says a word about how these events could be breaking the word of wisdom.

It's not quite no-one.   When I was in the Bishopric, I'd bring this up all the time, to the annoyance of the others in the bishopric of course.  

Our ward used to have an all you can eat "pig out" where a bunch of meat was roasted at the ward barbecue.  In the bishopric meeting, I brought up that this was contrary to the Word of Wisdom.   The bishop changed the name of the event, but the event still took place.   I decided to drop it there, though I strongly disagree that such an activity is compatible with the Word of Wisdom.  

[Guest Scott]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Well...duh. That seems pretty obvious. The strange thing is not that we freely eat meat but would be shocked at a ward activity serving coffee or tea. The strange thing is that you find this fact strange, almost as if you have no exposure to LDS culture or how the Church teaches its doctrine.

In his defense, I have been a member all my life and still find it strange, especially when a ward activity is something that is in direct conflict with church teachings/scriptures.  

[raven2]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

It's not quite no-one.   When I was in the Bishopric, I'd bring this up all the time, to the annoyance of the others in the bishopric of course.  

Our ward used to have an all you can eat "pig out" where a bunch of meat was roasted at the ward barbecue.  In the bishopric meeting, I brought up that this was contrary to the Word of Wisdom.   The bishop changed the name of the event, but the event still took place.   I decided to drop it there, though I strongly disagree that such an activity is compatible with the Word of Wisdom.  

Scott,

Very interesting story. Thank you.

[NeuroTypical]

On 3/25/2019 at 9:09 AM, Vort said:

Helpfully,
Mister Vort

 

[Guest Mores]

31 minutes ago, raven2 said:

- I think the Prophet Joseph Smith (and other later day Prophets) have provided some additional teaching on this topic. I think the season of the year is also very interesting to note as well.

"During the Zion’s Camp expedition in the summer of 1834, an incident occurred that allowed a practical application of concern for animal life. As related by the Prophet Joseph Smith in his history: In pitching my tent we found three massasaugas or prairie rattlesnakes, which the brethren were about to kill, but I said, ‘Let them alone—don’t hurt them! How will the serpent ever lose his venom, while the servants of God possess the same disposition, and continue to make war upon it? Men must become harmless, before the brute creation; and when men lose their vicious dispositions and cease to destroy the animal race, the lion and the lamb can dwell together, and the sucking child can play with the serpent in safety.’ The brethren took the serpents carefully on sticks and carried them across the creek. I exhorted the brethren not to kill a serpent, bird, or an animal of any kind during our journey unless it became necessary in order to preserve ourselves from hunger.” (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 2, pp. 71–72.)

I see you like to take things out of context.  Let's see what he writes after that.

Quote

I had frequently spoken on this subject, when on a certain occasion I came up to the brethren who were watching a squirrel on a tree, and to prove them and to know if they would heed my counsel, I took one of their guns, shot the squirrel and passed on, leaving the squirrel on the ground. Brother Orson Hyde, who was just behind, picked up the squirrel, and said, "We will cook this, that nothing may be lost." I perceived that the brethren understood what I did it for, and in their practice gave more heed to my precept than to my example, which was right.

Eating meat was ordained of God.  But to waste life is the sin.  Even the life of an animal.

One may argue that the rattlesnakes were deadly animals.  True, but most massasaugas will not attack humans if left to their own devices.  So, these men were going to kill a non-threatening creature.  That's what the problem was in this instance.  

The fact that you carefully omit the eating of meat immediately following your quoted passage tells me what biases you have.

[raven2]

17 minutes ago, Mores said:

I see you like to take things out of context.  Let's see what he writes after that.

Eating meat was ordained of God.  But to waste life is the sin.  Even the life of an animal.

One may argue that the rattlesnakes were deadly animals.  True, but most massasaugas will not attack humans if left to their own devices.  So, these men were going to kill a non-threatening creature.  That's what the problem was in this instance.  

The fact that you carefully omit the eating of meat immediately following your quoted passage tells me what biases you have.

Didn’t omit anything on purpose. I clearly stated that the word of wisdom allows the eating of meat in the right season and needed time. My comments have nothing to do with can we eat meat. It’s how do we as members of the church implement (or don’t implement) this part of the word of wisdom.

Sorry if you feel I was stating other wise.

 

[Guest Mores]

1 hour ago, raven2 said:

Didn’t omit anything on purpose. I clearly stated that the word of wisdom allows the eating of meat in the right season and needed time. My comments have nothing to do with can we eat meat. It’s how do we as members of the church implement (or don’t implement) this part of the word of wisdom.

Sorry if you feel I was stating other wise.

Well, if you really are sorry, perhaps you'd like to clear some things up.  And I do mean that sincerely.  You did actually sound that way.  But if you can clear some things up, I'd gladly apologize for my misinterpretation.

4 hours ago, raven2 said:

I would say out of everything meat has the most clarity in D&C yet is least followed, if at all.

quick example: many wards have some type of cookout during the summer season (Pioneer Day) which usually seem to have lots of burgers, hotdogs or bacon if it’s a breakfast. No one says a word about how these events could be breaking the word of wisdom.

So, what about such a cookout would break the Word of Wisdom?

And just what were you getting at with this:

2 hours ago, raven2 said:

- Paul's counsel - I think the Word of Wisdom provides additional clarity that meat should only be eaten in the winter and at times of famine. 

- I think the Prophet Joseph Smith (and other later day Prophets) have provided some additional teaching on this topic. I think the season of the year is also very interesting to note as well.

Followed by the HC quote we both discussed.

So What are you actually saying? Based on these statements and others that provided context, it seems you're saying that we break the WoW if we eat meat in times other than winter or famine.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Mores

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Mores said:

Based on these statements and others that provided context, it seems you're saying that we break the WoW if we eat meat in times other than winter or famine.

Yeah, @raven2, how do you interpret the WOW as it applies to us here in Florida where we don't have winter - we only have sunny, rainy, or hurricaney?  Or the Philippines - where there is only hot and hotter?

I'm truly interested in your answer.

Edited March 28, 2019 by anatess2

[raven2]

53 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah, @raven2, how do you interpret the WOW as it applies to us here in Florida where we don't have winter - we only have sunny, rainy, or hurricaney?  Or the Philippines - where there is only hot and hotter?

I'm truly interested in your answer.

Not sure. I started this to see what other members have to say on this. 

We have winter season in Florida it just usually doesn’t snow. Is it about the season, cold weather, etc. I am not sure.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

how would you interpret these two verses of the word of wisdom?

when I look at this I have asked myself:

What does sparingly mean? Is the focus a season or temperature thing or neither.

Like so many parts of the gospel it’s about balance, applying it appropriately to individual needs and direction of the spirit. 

I am also sure needs, not wasting and our stewardship of the earth also come into play.

your thought?

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by raven2

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 minutes ago, raven2 said:

Not sure. I started this to see what other members have to say...

There is another scripture that says whosoever forbids others not to eat meat is not of God. (Paraphrased...someone will tell you the reference. It ALWAYS comes up in these discussions.) There is another scripture in Genesis that strongly forbids eating meat. 

So how do we reconcile these scriptures?  For myself, I have decided that I needed to make the decision for myself but that I should also not tell others what they should do. I have chosen not to eat meat, but to everyone else....I say "You do you."  I truly believe God knows our hearts and blesses us for our efforts to follow Him. 

I chose to follow a Whole Food Plant Based lifestyle and it has been such a blessing to me health wise.  I lost a considerable amount of weight and have kept it for for over a year now, got off a blood pressure med, and both of my diabetes meds!  My kidney function was tanking and is now normal. My cholesterol is great.  My husband calls this the Word of Wisdom diet. 

But we have to let others make their own choices.  When I go to a Ward event, any time of the year, I eat before hand and go simply to socialize because its pretty much guaranteed that there will be nothing there that I feel is healthy...and I really love the greater health that the Whole Food Plant Based Lifestyle provides.

nutritionfacts.org is a great place to get more information if anyone interested. 

To those who say they feel better eating meat, white flour, sugar etc....I say fine, you do you. 

And yes, I take a B12 supplement.  

Final thought...I like the idea of sparingly being meant like a spare tire. Only when needed and only for as long as needed, but you do you.