Irony - Answered Prayers


Anddenex
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Two opposing experiences have been brought to my attention and I would be interested in hearing others thoughts. I am acquainted with a father who has had some struggles, and he shared one of those struggles this past week.

A few years back he experienced what others have experienced (and what I have experienced) of being fired from a job. He shared how hard he worked and wondered why (as we all do in that experience) why prayers were not answered.  Those who were his managers were temple recommend holders. (who appear to be living up to the covenants they made in the temple).

A year ago his current position went through a transition at work.  The company decided to let go of the whole department. He shared how his name was one that was going to be laid-off. Some were offered to go to HQ, while others were given severance. The day of lay-offs he was supposed to be laid-off, but a few managers fought for a period of time to keep him onboard. None of these individuals hold a temple recommend, and are not living close to the Spirit of the Lord (a couple of these individuals who fought for him served a mission and at this moment are removed from the Church of the Firstborn).  At the end, they won, and this father kept his job.

In both examples, prayers were offered to the Lord for his grace. The first experience, which impacted him greatly, he shared how he had finally received an answer from the Lord. Without going into private details, he shared that with the first experience the Lord was there seeking to help him, and that the Lord shared with him that he could not force the heart or mind of his children. In the second experience, the Lord though was able to soften the heart his managers and they fought for him.

Here is the outcome:
1) First and second experience prayers were offered
2) First experience, temple recommend holders whose hearts could not be softened although the Lord attempted
3) Second experience, those who are without the Lord in their lives the Lord was able to soften their heart that they fought to keep this father's job.

Wouldn't this be the opposite? The father's work ethic had not changed. The father's state of mind and personality hadn't changed.

How is it that the Lord could not soften the heart (because he will not force his children's mind) of those who are supposed to be close to the Spirit? Wouldn't those who are closer to the Spirit be easier to soften the heart?

How is it that the Lord was able to soften the heart of those who are not close to the Spirit?

I am interested in thoughts.

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God knows what's best for our refining journey in mortality, and sometimes enduring hardship is better for us than living in a state of reduced anxiety and bountiful employment.  Part of our mortal experience is to be "impacted greatly" in various ways.

Another thing to think about, is perhaps God chose to answer both prayers by doing nothing with either set of Managers, and just left the state of their hearts up to them.

Finally, heaven help me from ever basing my testimony on whether I get fired by saints or not.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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Anddenex, this is what I learned about Prayer.  It's a testimony that has now become a part of me.  It may not directly answer your question but maybe you can get some nuggets out of it to apply to that particular situation.

So, my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer.  4 months, 6 months tops.  We were devastated.  But, I was confident that God would spare my father because, 1.) my father is truly one of God's faithful servants, 2.) my father still has a lot to offer the world, 3.) My father was showing interest in the LDS Church, 4.) I was confident God would hear and answer my prayers.  I prayed and prayed with all my heart for God to perform one of his many miracles.

My dad told us that he is ready to go and meet his Savior and he wants to die in dignity and not have to go through desperate means to try to stay alive.  I told him he may be ready to go but his kids aren't, so he has to stay and fight.  That same day, I found out from my co-worker that her mother has had lung cancer for 10 years by that time whose cancer was stopped from spreading through a clinical trial for the drug Avastin.  God answered my prayers!  I immediately forwarded all the info to my brother (doctor) and sister (nurse) and they managed to get my dad into an Avastin trial in Houston.  We flew my dad a few days later and he started his trial.  The drug worked.  Lots of side effects but it worked.  God answered my prayers!

3 years later, my dad's cancer was still well controlled but he lost some motor functions.  He also went into depression.  I was flabbergasted.  How can my dad not see the blessings God has given him?  I prayed to God that my faithful dad will not lose his attitude of gratitude to God.  Prayed and prayed.  But alas, one day, my dad screamed at my sister, "I'm in prison!  You're putting me in prison!"  He insisted he go home.  He went on a hunger strike.  There was nothing we can do.  So we took him out of the clinical trial and sent him home.  He died a year later.  

For a while there, I was angry at God.  I didn't understand why our prayers did not work.  I didn't understand why my dad did not trust that God would save him.  It wasn't until a few months later that I realized... God DID answer my prayers.  It just wasn't the answer I was expecting.  I was praying for God to save my father and I expected God to answer the prayer by saving my father.  But that wasn't the answer to my prayer.  I realized that God answered my prayer by prolonging my dad's life that I might be able to work towards getting ready for my dad's passing.  He also set up the condition for me to learn an important testimony about service - how serving my dad and expecting him to thank me and be nice to me and praise my efforts was not true charity but a selfish service... in those 3 years, I learned to truly serve my dad because I love my dad and not because I want to feel loved by my dad.  But I wasted my 3 years.  I didn't prepare myself because I was too focused on what I want rather than what God wants.  And my dad couldn't wait any longer.  I see that now.

Anyway, the part about "Let Thy will be done" is a very important part of prayer.  We have to be able to align our will to God's will and trust that what He wills for us has Divine purpose.  It is, therefore, our mission in prayer to figure out what this Purpose is that we might be able to align our will to His.

 

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I don't know enough about the story to really even comment on the situation on whether they had their hearts softened or not. It could have been multiple situations. 

I can say that we do not know the hearts of people in many instances.  We may think we know them when in reality we do not.

In Matthew 25 it talks about talents and those with them.  This message in many ways is directly towards those who profess to be followers of the master, those who are Christian and those who say they follow the Lord's path.  We find, however, that though many may claim this, they may not always act as such.  It states...

Quote

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And again we also see in Matthew 7

Quote

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Thus we see, just because one professes that they are a follower of the Lord or even those that have the power to prophesy, cast out devils and do great works and authority may not necessarily be those that are the ones that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

It states earlier, right before those verses that by their fruits you shall know them.  It is by what one can see of our actions and our fruits that one can know if we are followers of the Lord or not.

In some ways the BEST we can hope is that we find ourselves on the Lord's right hand.  That we strive to do what is right ourselves and be found as faithful servants.  I truly hope that I can do such myself and do not find myself on the wrong side of him at the day of judgment and pray that I can somehow miraculously be a servant of the Lord in faithfulness and righteousness.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Wouldn't this be the opposite? The father's work ethic had not changed. The father's state of mind and personality hadn't changed.

How is it that the Lord could not soften the heart (because he will not force his children's mind) of those who are supposed to be close to the Spirit? Wouldn't those who are closer to the Spirit be easier to soften the heart?

How is it that the Lord was able to soften the heart of those who are not close to the Spirit?

 I am interested in thoughts.

One’s job is not eternally important. I get a sense that you are treating his being laid off was a sin. A soft or hard heart would not change the fact that he was going to be laid off or not. 

Pharaoh’s heart was hard when he would not let the Istaelites go, as was Amulon’s when he put tasks on Alma’s people.

But were the handcart company leaders hard hearted when they cut rations? Or were owners if Beneficial life hard hearted when they let my dad go after their company went under? Or were the managers of your dad’s company hard hearted when they fired your dad? In all cases I would argue no, they were not hard hearted, it just business survival.

Though I don’t know the context of your dad’s experience, I don’t think we can say one person was hard hearted and another wasn’t. It’s just business survival

Edited by Fether
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10 minutes ago, Fether said:

One’s job is not eternally important. I get a sense that you are treating his being laid off was a sin. A soft or hard heart would not change the fact that he was going to be laid off or not. 

Pharaoh’s heart was hard when he would not let the Istaelites go, as was Amulon’s when he put tasks on Alma’s people.

But were the handcart company leaders hard hearted when they cut rations? Or were owners if Beneficial life hard hearted when they let my dad go after their company went under? Or were the managers of your dad’s company hard hearted when they fired your dad? In all cases I would argue no, they were not hard hearted, it just business survival.

Though I don’t know the context of your dad’s experience, I don’t think we can say one person was hard hearted and another wasn’t. It’s just business survival

Two things:

1) Not my father's experience, but a father's ("I am acquainted with a father") experience I am now aware of.

2) No, not treating anything as "sin", but noticing the irony that the Lord was able to soften the heart of one who does not have the Spirit with them, while the heart of a temple recommend holder (who one would assume has the Spirit, although we realize having a recommend doesn't mean they are worthy of it either) was not able to be softened although the Lord tried.

Thanks for the thought though.

Edited by Anddenex
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13 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

 the Lord was able to soften the heart of one who does not have the Spirit with them, while the heart of a temple recommend holder... was not able to be softened although the Lord tried.

This is where I’m getting hung up.

If the company I ran was losing money and I decided that the best option was to remove some of the under performers or people who didn’t match the culture I was trying to create, would it be “hard hearted” of me to fire people?

Im not making this decision out of some vicious motive, but rather as a way to make sure me and my family’s  well being is sustained and the company survives. 

I don’t think firing someone is a sign of a hard heart. It could be if there was anger or revenge sorivated somewhere in the mix, but that wasn’t presented in the scenario.

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17 minutes ago, Fether said:

This is where I’m getting hung up.

If the company I ran was losing money and I decided that the best option was to remove some of the under performers or people who didn’t match the culture I was trying to create, would it be “hard hearted” of me to fire people?

Im not making this decision out of some vicious motive, but rather as a way to make sure me and my family’s  well being is sustained and the company survives. 

I don’t think firing someone is a sign of a hard heart. It could be if there was anger or revenge sorivated somewhere in the mix, but that wasn’t presented in the scenario.

Thank you. I am thinking you are hung up due to creating a scenario in your own mind that isn't apart of the example.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question likened to myself, "If the Lord was seeking to help me to not do something, and I did it anyway (although the Lord was trying to help me make a different decision), would you consider that a soft or hard heart"? We are speaking solely of this situation.

Our motive becomes irrelative to the example. A person could be vicious. A person could think they are being kind. The person can be thinking business survival.

Edited by Anddenex
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13 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Thank you. I am thinking you are hung up due to creating a scenario in your own mind that isn't apart of the example.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question likened to myself, "If the Lord was seeking to help me to not do something, and I did it anyway (although the Lord was trying to help me make a different decision), would you consider that a soft or hard heart"? We are speaking solely of this situation.

The scenario does not provide sufficient data to answer the question.  It is missing the factor:  Did you know that the Lord wanted you to make a different decision and for what reason?

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The scenario does not provide sufficient data to answer the question.  It is missing the factor:  Did you know that the Lord wanted you to make a different decision and for what reason?

The data is all there, nothing missing.

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2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

In both examples, prayers were offered to the Lord for his grace. The first experience, which impacted him greatly, he shared how he had finally received an answer from the Lord. Without going into private details, he shared that with the first experience the Lord was there seeking to help him, and that the Lord shared with him that he could not force the heart or mind of his children. In the second experience, the Lord though was able to soften the heart his managers and they fought for him.

Like @Fether, this strikes me as irregular on a number of levels, but most particularly, it seems that heavenly Father is supposedly revealing the  hearts of men to someone  who has no spiritual stewardship over them. In some respects, the "father" has become a judge in Israel over his bosses at work. Is that how God works?

Or, could it be that the father is inadvertently answering his own prayers--something thatr isn't all that unusual?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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14 minutes ago, wenglund said:

 

Like @Fether, this strikes me as irregular on a number of levels, but most particularly, it seems that heavenly Father is supposedly revealing the  hearts of men to someone  who has no spiritual stewardship over them. In some respects, the "father" has become a judge in Israel over his bosses at work. Is that how God works?

Or, could it be that the father is inadvertently answering his own prayers--something thatr isn't all that unusual?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

And like @Fether you are making assumptions regarding the father and circumstance. Nothing is mentioned regarding the Lord making known the hearts of men; although, in scripture it is very clear the Lord can reveal the hearts of men -- even if they are not within your stewardship.

Remove the assumptions, and then hopefully you will see what is actually being asked. I make no mention of how the father is judging the managers in both scenarios, and I am not sure why you and Fether are now judging the father who you have no stewardship over, nor know his heart.

The father answering his own prayer -- I doubt it (because I assume then anyone could say none of us receive answers to our prayers we answer our own prayers). Thanks for the thought. I won't discount that.

EDIT: I am simply pointing out an irony I can easily see between the two experiences, and wanted to know what others thought. No need to make assumptions regarding the scenario and father.

Edited by Anddenex
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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I am interested in thoughts.

There are innumerable forces and gospel principles at work in person's life. I think a question for him is, "What kind of man have you become as result of how the prayers were answered?" I'm an optimist, so if he's like me, he has found himself to have grown closer to Christ.

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I do not believe that prayers are for the purpose of us making our will known to him - It is not the means by which we can alter what is happening (especially to others).   I believe the purpose of prayer is to change our hearts and draw us closer to G-d.  When we become h-ll bent on changing what is happening to others (and sometimes to ourselves) rather than drawing closer to G-d -- we will often (but not always) be most disappointed with G-d's answers to our prayers.  There is another force attempting to answer our prayers that we may find ourselves happy to become aligned with.

 

The Traveler

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Elder Neil A. Andersen really covered the topic during the last general conference better than I could convey. (I'm not being dismissive, it really covers this topic better than what I would say.)

This talk explains why these things happen. 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/wounded?lang=eng

 

"Along with the bright colors of happiness and joy, the darker-colored threads of trial and tragedy are woven deeply into the fabric of our Father’s plan. These struggles, although difficult, often become our greatest teachers." 

 

 

I would not begin to speculate as to who felt the Spirit and at what times. This situation may or may not been due to softened/hardened hearts. The Lord's will, needed lessons, and experiences all play a part as to why the father might have had these trials. 

Edited by Colirio
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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

If the Lord was seeking to help me to not do something, and I did it anyway (although the Lord was trying to help me make a different decision), would you consider that a soft or hard heart"?

A hard heart.

my confusion comes from how one would know that God was really trying to help this father’s employer not fire him. How do you know God was trying to tell the employer not to fire the father?

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21 minutes ago, Fether said:

A hard heart.

my confusion comes from how one would know that God was really trying to help this father’s employer not fire him. How do you know God was trying to tell the employer not to fire the father?

I can definitely understand this question, and the answer is that I can only accept in faith the answer he told me.  Not to go into details that are not mine to share, I can share the following in my original post:

"Without going into private details, he shared that with the first experience the Lord was there seeking to help him, and that the Lord shared with him that he could not force the heart or mind of his children."

He understood the answer as being the Lord was seeking to help him to keep his job, but the Lord will not force the heart and mind of his children. The second answer, was a direct answer according to what he asked the Lord.

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5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I can definitely understand this question, and the answer is that I can only accept in faith the answer he told me.  Not to go into details that are not mine to share, I can share the following in my original post:

"Without going into private details, he shared that with the first experience the Lord was there seeking to help him, and that the Lord shared with him that he could not force the heart or mind of his children."

He understood the answer as being the Lord was seeking to help him to keep his job, but the Lord will not force the heart and mind of his children. The second answer, was a direct answer according to what he asked the Lord.

I see... I’m not sold on the idea that God was actively trying to inspire the managers away from firing him. To me it appears that in the first case, firing him was better for the company than keeping him, and in the second case keeping him was more beneficial than letting him go. I don’t know that God would inspire a person (a saint or not) to go any particular direction in the name of one person’s prayer. 

I find this whole thing similar to a person praying to win a football game. The answer to his prayer may be to the detriment of another... which in the end (as we see in this story as well) none of which really matters.

BUT... Assuming this hypothetical situation really did go down exactly as explained, I would just argue that perhaps the first managers were wicked and the second, even though they were not members, were righteous.

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26 minutes ago, Fether said:

I see... I’m not sold on the idea that God was actively trying to inspire the managers away from firing him. To me it appears that in the first case, firing him was better for the company than keeping him, and in the second case keeping him was more beneficial than letting him go. I don’t know that God would inspire a person (a saint or not) to go any particular direction in the name of one person’s prayer. 

I find this whole thing similar to a person praying to win a football game. The answer to his prayer may be to the detriment of another... which in the end (as we see in this story as well) none of which really matters.

BUT... Assuming this hypothetical situation really did go down exactly as explained, I would just argue that perhaps the first managers were wicked and the second, even though they were not members, were righteous.

I understand. I am not selling anything, and you don't have to be sold on anything. Remember, there are many people who aren't sold on the idea of Joseph Smith seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ, but it doesn't change what did in fact occur.

The story of Amulek with Alma tells me otherwise. The Lord definitely inspired Amulek on behalf of Alma as a direct result of his fasting and prayers for the city he was seeking to help.

Do you believe that when you (general) are praying for a job that the Lord is not able to inspire the boss to hire you? I have a personal experience of a prayer I asked regarding a job only to have the owner approach me and ask if I wanted a job because he felt inspired that you were the right person for the job.

I have a friend who was poor, and was one day walking through Deseret Industries and came across a dresser she wanted for her children. At that time her children didn't have a dresser for any clothes. She prayed for the dresser, and at the same time felt ashamed to ask this of our Father in heaven. At some point later, not long, her relief society president showed up and asked if she would come to Deseret Industry with her. As they were walking through the rows, the relief society president stopped at the dresser and then said, "I have a feeling you need this dresser. I am going to buy this for you today." The relief society president did not know, she had never shared her prayer or desire with anyone else. God definitely does inspire his children to go a particular direction for his children. How often do we hear that we may be the answer to someone's prayer?

I don't think it wise either to extend oneself with assumptions regarding what was or was not important to a job. It sounds like you have more compassion for the managers than the father. You don't have any detail except that he was let go.

This is nothing similar to a football game, and sadly minimizes a father's trial. Hey, your prayer and your experience is nothing but like a football game, and your prayer was pretty immature like someone praying for their favorite team to win. OK, ouch. I am assuming he will get a kick out of hearing someone likening his prayers to provide for his family like unto a football game. As I know more about this situation, your judgement is pretty poor.

This isn't hypothetical. This happened. I asked a hypothetical question about soft or hard heart. With every story, with every testimony, everyone hearing the witness/testimony has a choice. We can say we don't believe. We can minimize. We can have faith like we expect from others when we share a real story that happened.

Edited by Anddenex
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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not believe that prayers are for the purpose of us making our will known to him - It is not the means by which we can alter what is happening (especially to others).   I believe the purpose of prayer is to change our hearts and draw us closer to G-d.  When we become h-ll bent on changing what is happening to others (and sometimes to ourselves) rather than drawing closer to G-d -- we will often (but not always) be most disappointed with G-d's answers to our prayers.  There is another force attempting to answer our prayers that we may find ourselves happy to become aligned with.

 

The Traveler

The Book of Mormon appears to provide evidence that prayer is not just to change our hearts and for us to draw closer to God. Our prayers are often for those we love.

When a wayward son goes astray, you don't think our prayers can alter what is happening to our sons and daughters? The reason Alma the younger became a prophet was due to the faithfulness and prayers of his father.

We definitely agree though that prayer is to draw us closer to God. When Alma left the judgement seat to preach, to help change what was happening to others do you think/believe he was disappointed with the answers to his prayers on behalf of the cities he preached in?

True. There is another force attempting to answer our prayers, opposition. I am not sure how this relates to this father though.

Edited by Anddenex
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1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

Do you believe that when you (general) are praying for a job that the Lord is not able to inspire the boss to hire you? I have a personal experience of a prayer I asked regarding a job only to have the owner approach me and ask if I wanted a job because he felt inspired that you were the right person for the job.

Yes, I believe that the boss could be inspired to hire me. But what happens when me and David are applying for the same job and we are both equally righteous but differ in qualifications. And the boss too is righteous and he is praying that he will get an accountant that will bring success to his company. 

Someone’s prYerbwill not be answered. No one has a hard heart, it’s just how it plays out.

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

I don't think it wise either to extend oneself with assumptions regarding what was or was not important to a job. It sounds like you have more compassion for the managers than the father. You don't have any detail except that he was let go

I don’t have details cause they were not provided. I cAn think of countless scenarios where the manager could have been the hard hearted one. I can also think of scenarios where the one being fired is the hard hearted one. My problem with the scenario is that it assumes that the employer, despite his temple recommend, was the hard hearted one.

And it is not a matter of compassion (as I have no context on who was struggling more), but rather I am challenging your assumption that God was without a doubt inspiring the heart of the manager, but the manager was just too hard hearted. Just cause I pray to get or keep a job doesn’t guarantee God will inspire others to meet my wish. As in the sport scenario, my “answered prayer” is an unanswered prayer to the person that doesn’t get hired or gets fired in place of me.

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

This is nothing similar to a football game, and sadly minimizes a father's trial. Hey, your prayer and your experience is nothing but like a football game, and your prayer was pretty immature like someone praying for their favorite team to win. OK, ouch. I am assuming he will get a kick out of hearing someone likening his prayers to provide for his family like unto a football game. As I know more about this situation, your judgement is pretty poor.

The seriousness of my example is not equal to your scenario. My intention was just to show that in your scenario, the father’s answered prayer would be the unanswered prayer of another and he would be left wondering the same thing the father was wondering.

I am not arguing against the power of prayer, but against the sophistry that our prayers, no matter how well motivated, are not always answered. Not because someone is hard hearted, but because it just isn’t what’s god wants

Edited by Fether
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20 minutes ago, Fether said:

Yes, I believe that the boss could be inspired to hire me. But what happens when me and David are applying for the same job and we are both equally righteous but differ in qualifications. And the boss too is righteous and he is praying that he will get an accountant that will bring success to his company. 

Someone’s prYerbwill not be answered. No one has a hard heart, it’s just how it plays out.

I don’t have details cause they were not provided. I cAn think of countless scenarios where the manager could have been the hard hearted one. I can also think of scenarios where the one being fired is the hard hearted one. My problem with the scenario is that it assumes that the employer, despite his temple recommend, was the hard hearted one.

And it is not a matter of compassion (as I have no context on who was struggling more), but rather I am challenging your assumption that God was without a doubt inspiring the heart of the manager, but the manager was just too hard hearted. Just cause I pray to get or keep a job doesn’t guarantee God will inspire others to meet my wish. As in the sport scenario, my “answered prayer” is an unanswered prayer to the person that doesn’t get hired or gets fired in place of me.

The seriousness of my example is not equal to your scenario. My intention was just to show that in your scenario, the father’s answered prayer would be the unanswered prayer of another and he would be left wondering the same thing the father was wondering.

I am not arguing against the power of prayer, but against the sophistry that our prayers, no matter how well motivated, are not always answered. Not because someone is hard hearted, but because it just isn’t what’s god wants

I am going to begin with your last sentence, as once again you keep thinking you know something you don't know. This has nothing to do with "sophistry" in relation to our prayers. There is nothing fallacious being used, and nothing meant to deceive. If you continue such ignorance, we have nothing further to discuss. I made no such argument you are suggesting. So stop.

This has nothing to do with two people praying for the same job. This has something to do with an answered prayer you keep thinking you have a right to interpret his answer and what was actually said to him. Once again you are attempting to minimize an answer to a father's prayer.

Correct you don't have details because I did not provide them but you keep thinking you know what happened. I didn't make any assumption. I provided the answered prayer. If you want to minimize his answer, that is your choice. No one said anything about God guaranteeing anything, again, stop jumping to conclusions that aren't apart of the OP, nor anything I made an argument for or against. So stop once again making assumptions. You only show how shallow you are being.

No, your example, was a poor judgement and poor attempt as trying to prove something. You continue to minimize and make assumptions. Stop. The scenario you provide doesn't even come close to the scenario in the OP.

Once again, if you continue with statements that don't even apply and try to say I am doing something I am not, "I am not arguing against the power of prayer, but against the sophistry that our prayers...," we have nothing further to talk about.

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