Agency


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From time to time we will observe discussions about agency.  What I would be most interested in is:

First.  A short explanation of exactly what you believe constitutes the exercise of agency. 

Second.  A detailed description of your understanding of the epoch of Jonah and how your understanding of Jonah choices corresponds to your understanding of agency.

 

Thanks

 

The Traveler

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

A short explanation of exactly what you believe constitutes the exercise of agency. 

 

What am overwhelmingly vague question x)

my definition: Any decision we make.

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

A detailed description of your understanding of the epoch of Jonah and how your understanding of Jonah choices corresponds to your understanding of agency.

There is probably some context we haven’t seen.

Perhaps he had made covenants and had received what we call the endowment, Justifying God’s actions as Jonah had broken his covenants.

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8 hours ago, Traveler said:

First.  A short explanation of exactly what you believe constitutes the exercise of agency. 

To me, agency is the varied capacity to make choices with consequences, and the exercise thereof is the point at which we act upon those  choices twith consequences.

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Second.  A detailed description of your understanding of the epoch of Jonah and how your understanding of Jonah choices corresponds to your understanding of agency.

The first choice for Jonah that we are made aware of in the biblical book in his name, is whether or not to act upon the expressed will of God (Jonah 1:1-2). Jonah made the choice to defy the will of God , and he exercised his agency by fleeing to Tarshish, and this under the false assumption that he could flee the presence of God.(v.3), or in other words, he believed he could evade the consequences of his choice.

However, the consequences were nevertheless realized when the Lord sent out a great wind and tempest that threatened the survival of the ship in which Jonah was traveling.(v. 4) .

We are given indication that Jonah understood the wind and tempest to rightly be the consequence of the exercise of his agency (verses 6-10)--which suggests that he came to somewhat understand that he couldn't evade the consequences.

I suppose it could be said that Jonah was made somewhat aware of the fundamental law of obedience and its implied inverse. (D&C 130:20-21)

Thus far this corresponds consistently with my understanding of agency.

I can go on, but I would like to know what you think of what I have said so far.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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13 hours ago, wenglund said:

To me, agency is the varied capacity to make choices with consequences, and the exercise thereof is the point at which we act upon those  choices twith consequences.

The first choice for Jonah that we are made aware of in the biblical book in his name, is whether or not to act upon the expressed will of God (Jonah 1:1-2). Jonah made the choice to defy the will of God , and he exercised his agency by fleeing to Tarshish, and this under the false assumption that he could flee the presence of God.(v.3), or in other words, he believed he could evade the consequences of his choice.

However, the consequences were nevertheless realized when the Lord sent out a great wind and tempest that threatened the survival of the ship in which Jonah was traveling.(v. 4) .

We are given indication that Jonah understood the wind and tempest to rightly be the consequence of the exercise of his agency (verses 6-10)--which suggests that he came to somewhat understand that he couldn't evade the consequences.

Granted, one may reasonably debate the point at which the disparity in consequences for certain choices, particularly in terms of severity,  may render the decision one of compulsion rather than agency, or in other words, no real choice at all..

For example, one may be given the choice to lie about something and live, or tell the truth and die. One may reasonably conclude that such a choice amounts to compulsion to lie, and isn't really a choice at all--not that such a reasonable argument settles the debate. Reasonable arguments can also be made that there is still agency.

One may also reasonably debate the point at which the severity of each consequences for certain choices may render the decision  pointless, or in other words no decision at all.

Fore example, one may argue that Jonah was faced with two life-threatening options (i.e. face the distinct prospect of a wicked and angry mob in Nineveh after being called to repentance, or a wind and storm-tossed sea if he doesn't do what the Lord commanded) , and conclude that the choice is pointless because the consequences appear to be the same, or in other words it wasn't really a choice at all--not that such a reasonable argument settles the debate. Reasonable arguments can also be made that agency still exists, particularly if one has faith in the protective powers of God when people do as he asks, or at the very least faith in God's mercy and justice and love in making things right in the eternities.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, scottyg said:

To me, agency isn't so much the ability for one to make choices, but rather the capacity to be held responsible for them.

Why do you believe we should be held responsible for consequences we do not understand very well?

 

The Traveler

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First - I want to thank those brave enough to attempt a response.  

When considering the epoch of Jonah - my question is:  At what point did Jonah exercise agency?  and what did that exercise of agency change?  

I am using the epoch of Jonah to demonstrate something I find confusing about agency.  I wonder - when we look at the mortal lparameters of our life - what powers of agency exist whereby we can resolve to change something - if anything at all?

I will ask the same question is a different way - what do you personally think you have the power of knowledge to know what you are doing and what the ramifications (consequences) are?

 

The Traveler

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1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Why do you believe we should be held responsible for consequences we do not understand very well?

 

The Traveler

Well, "we believe that man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression". Whether or not we understand that an action is a sin, it will still distance us from God nonetheless. For example, those who choose to participate in immoral behavior or commit adultery, may say that they "didn't know" it was wrong. Even if that is true, they will still need the Atonement to become clean, even if they do not believe their acts are wrong. Sin is sin, and one composed of it cannot be in the presence of God without the cleansing power of Christ's Atonement. We all have been given the light of Christ, and at approximately the age of 8 years old, we are expected to begin learning how to fix mistakes we make in life.

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5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

First - I want to thank those brave enough to attempt a response.  

When considering the epoch of Jonah - my question is:  At what point did Jonah exercise agency?  and what did that exercise of agency change?  

I am using the epoch of Jonah to demonstrate something I find confusing about agency.  I wonder - when we look at the mortal lparameters of our life - what powers of agency exist whereby we can resolve to change something - if anything at all?

I will ask the same question is a different way - what do you personally think you have the power of knowledge to know what you are doing and what the ramifications (consequences) are?

 

The Traveler

Hopefully this is along the lines of what you are looking for. I believe Jonah exercised his agency when he refused to go and preach to the people of Ninevah, and left. God knew that those people would change if called to repentance, but because Jonah disliked the people in that area, he chose to disobey, and at that point would be held accountable in part for the destruction that would soon befall the people. His sin was in that he refused to sacrifice and help others...to put the Lord's will before his own. Those who would be destroyed in Ninevah would be held responsible for their own wicked actions, but Jonah would also be responsible for not raising a warning voice and preaching the gospel to them when he had the chance.

Thankfully, Jonah did go and preach to them, but he was also angry that they were spared because he still did not believe that those people were worthy of being spared. Eve though he gave them a great gift, he did it grudgingly, and so it profited him nothing without a real desire for their welfare. Later however, he was taught another lesson from the Lord, and hopefully his heart softened at that point. I think it did, and that his repentance would then be complete because he not only chose to obey his command, but began to actually view the people of Ninevah as precious children of God. His agency would then allow him to grow from this experience and partake of future blessings associated with his obedience.

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1 hour ago, scottyg said:

Hopefully this is along the lines of what you are looking for. I believe Jonah exercised his agency when he refused to go and preach to the people of Ninevah, and left. God knew that those people would change if called to repentance, but because Jonah disliked the people in that area, he chose to disobey, and at that point would be held accountable in part for the destruction that would soon befall the people. His sin was in that he refused to sacrifice and help others...to put the Lord's will before his own. Those who would be destroyed in Ninevah would be held responsible for their own wicked actions, but Jonah would also be responsible for not raising a warning voice and preaching the gospel to them when he had the chance.

Thankfully, Jonah did go and preach to them, but he was also angry that they were spared because he still did not believe that those people were worthy of being spared. Eve though he gave them a great gift, he did it grudgingly, and so it profited him nothing without a real desire for their welfare. Later however, he was taught another lesson from the Lord, and hopefully his heart softened at that point. I think it did, and that his repentance would then be complete because he not only chose to obey his command, but began to actually view the people of Ninevah as precious children of God. His agency would then allow him to grow from this experience and partake of future blessings associated with his obedience.

Thank you for engaging.  We know from revelation that the singular most important point of disagreement between G-d and Lucifer was agency.  Lucifer intended to deprive man of agency and “Force” mankind to comply to “Authority”. It was agency that divided heaven so deeply that war resulted.  The arguments pro and con concerning agency were so powerful that the most intelligent and enlightened society to ever exist in this universe went to war over the implications of agency.

We also know that agency is the power of an individual to act.   With the power to act come conflict between the actions of different individuals that are not acting in unison or as one with the whole.  The entire concept of law is to force those with a desire act outside the law with punitive incentives.  In short to pay penitence to compensate to the losses accumulated to the whole. 

Now let’s look at Jonah.  He was commanded to go to Nineveh, he was no asked or given any other option.  We can address Jonah and what he understood in his time and place and draw many conclusions.  The facts of the story is that Jonah attempted to act for himself but was denied the opportunity.  He was forced to Nineveh where the account in scripture gets a little bewildering.  I could list many elements of the story that seem to be rather difficult to account for in the grand scheme of human nature – but in sort Jonah tell the people to repent or be destroyed. 

Where in the scheme of human nature do wicked people suddenly repent (in less than overnight) in mass without a single voice of decent?   Jonah cannot account for any possible fairness (justice) with Nineveh facing no consequences what-so-ever for their previous intercessions.  What so compelled the society of Nineveh to repent?

But why aren’t more people in society today given the same considerations of agency or force to comply to G-ds command as was Jonah and Nineveh?

 

The Traveler

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23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for engaging.  We know from revelation that the singular most important point of disagreement between G-d and Lucifer was agency.  Lucifer intended to deprive man of agency and “Force” mankind to comply to “Authority”. It was agency that divided heaven so deeply that war resulted.  The arguments pro and con concerning agency were so powerful that the most intelligent and enlightened society to ever exist in this universe went to war over the implications of agency.

We also know that agency is the power of an individual to act.   With the power to act come conflict between the actions of different individuals that are not acting in unison or as one with the whole.  The entire concept of law is to force those with a desire act outside the law with punitive incentives.  In short to pay penitence to compensate to the losses accumulated to the whole. 

Now let’s look at Jonah.  He was commanded to go to Nineveh, he was no asked or given any other option.  We can address Jonah and what he understood in his time and place and draw many conclusions.  The facts of the story is that Jonah attempted to act for himself but was denied the opportunity.  He was forced to Nineveh where the account in scripture gets a little bewildering.  I could list many elements of the story that seem to be rather difficult to account for in the grand scheme of human nature – but in sort Jonah tell the people to repent or be destroyed. 

Where in the scheme of human nature do wicked people suddenly repent (in less than overnight) in mass without a single voice of decent?   Jonah cannot account for any possible fairness (justice) with Nineveh facing no consequences what-so-ever for their previous intercessions.  What so compelled the society of Nineveh to repent?

But why aren’t more people in society today given the same considerations of agency or force to comply to G-ds command as was Jonah and Nineveh?

 

The Traveler

Do you view agency and force in binary terms, or as arrayed along a spectrum? In other words, do you assume, according to the Plan of Progression, that in mortality agency would be unlimited or with no varying degrees of limitations? I ask because I see aspects of mortality that are absolutely forced, while other aspects are  allow for varying degrees of agency. I can provide examples if you would like. 

And, are you assuming that since no other options were verbalized to Jonah, that no other options existed?

Clearly, the option to go elsewhere (Tarshish) existed, sine that is where he headed.

Jonah thus had the power to act contrary to the command of God.  

The option not to go anywhere also existed,. 

In short, Jonah had the agency to obey or disobey (through commission or omission) the command of God.

Was Jonah "forced" to go to Nineveh? I suppose in a relative sense, yes, in that he was given compelling reasons to go. But, he still had agency. It wasn't as though he was transported to Nineveh by a power not his own.  He still acted under his own power.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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1 hour ago, wenglund said:

Do you view agency and force in binary terms, or as arrayed along a spectrum? In other words, do you assume, according to the Plan of Progression, that in mortality agency would be unlimited or with no varying degrees of limitations? I ask because I see aspects of mortality that are absolutely forced, while other aspects are  allow for varying degrees of agency. I can provide examples if you would like. 

And, are you assuming that since no other options were verbalized to Jonah, that no other options existed?

Clearly, the option to go elsewhere (Tarshish) existed, sine that is where he headed.

Jonah thus had the power to act contrary to the command of God.  

The option not to go anywhere also existed,. 

In short, Jonah had the agency to obey or disobey (through commission or omission) the command of God.

Was Jonah "forced" to go to Nineveh? I suppose in a relative sense, yes, in that he was given compelling reasons to go. But, he still had agency. It wasn't as though he was transported to Nineveh by a power not his own.  He still acted under his own power.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

As I understand agency there were only two possibilities in the pre-existence.  One was presented in the Plan of Salvation by G-d where each individual would be given power to act and determine their eternal fate or place.  The other was presented by Lucifer - we do not have much detail but that Lucifer intended that the power to act and determine one's eternal fate would not take place.  I do no see this as a spectrum but rather as two possibilities in opposition - without any common ground.   I do understand that the level of action may be varied and thus thought of as a spectrum of action but the power to act (agency) is binary.  Either it exist and one has power to act or it does not exist and the power to act does not exist.

Now to Jonah and how he got to Nineveh.  Jonah was swallowed by a very large critter that was in the Mediterranean Sea.  That critter then took Jonah to Nineveh.  The only way by water would be to leave the Mediterranean Sea into the Atlantic - around Africa and then leave salt water into fresh water of a river for several hundred miles to get close to Nineveh where Jonah was deposited and left.   In our time we have vessels that travel the waterways much faster than any critter is known to swim.  And yet there is no modern vessel that could travers the waters in the time that the critter with Jonah did it.  The only possibility was that Jonah was transported to Nineveh - not by his own power but by divine power.

 

The Traveler

 

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5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As I understand agency there were only two possibilities in the pre-existence.  One was presented in the Plan of Salvation by G-d were each individual would be given power to act and determine their eternal fate or place.  The other was presented by Lucifer - we do not have much detail but that Lucifer intended that the power to act and determine one's eternal fate would not take place.  I do no see this as a spectrum but rather as two possibilities in opposition - without any common ground.   I do understand that the level of action may be varied and thus thought of as a spectrum of action but the power to act (agency) is binary.  Either it exist and one has power to act or it does not exist and the power to act does not exist.

Not to Jonah and how he got to Nineveh.  Jonah was swallowed by a very large critter that was in the Mediterranean Sea.  That critter then took Jonah to Nineveh.  The only way by water would be to leave the Mediterranean Sea into the Atlantic - around Africa and then leave salt water into fresh water of a river for several hundred miles to get close to Nineveh where Jonah was deposited and left.   In our time we have vessels that travel the waterways much faster than any critter is known to swim.  And yet there is no modern vessel that could travers the waters in the time that the critter with Jonah did it.  The only possibility was that Jonah was transported to Nineveh - not by his own power but by divine power.

 

The Traveler

 

My personal view and understanding of Lucifer's plan in removing our agency was not about removing our ability to make personal choices, but removing any consequence of those choices. We would still have the ability to make choices every day, but there would be no negative consequences from evil acts. This would also remove any positive outcomes from good choices, and effectively nullify good and evil altogether. In his plan, one person could be righteous his entire life, while another could lie, kill, cheat, and steal...and both would be given the same reward, because we would not be agents unto ourselves - Lucifer would be our agent. However, as he presented it, this plan of his was impossible. To some it sounded great, but without agency, and the ability to learn from consequences, eternal life would not be possible, because there would be no room for growth. Since we would all be given the same "reward" by default, it would hinder our potential to progress, and without progression, our reward wouldn't actually be anything meaningful...just a state of being, which is in another manner of speaking, damnation. We would not be able to progress. His plan was a great lie.

With regard to Jonah, he still had to make the choice to preach repentance. God will at times guide and direct us in his paths, but we will never be forced to act. Also, I do believe that the people on Earth today have the same opportunity of those of Ninevah. If we truly feel sorrow for our sin, and choose to change, we can be forgiven as they were. I am sure that not every single person in the city chose to repent...just the majority, and that majority prevented destruction. Repentance of an entire city is possible I guess, but would be remarkable.

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4 hours ago, Traveler said:

As I understand agency there were only two possibilities in the pre-existence.  One was presented in the Plan of Salvation by G-d where each individual would be given power to act and determine their eternal fate or place.  The other was presented by Lucifer - we do not have much detail but that Lucifer intended that the power to act and determine one's eternal fate would not take place.  I do no see this as a spectrum but rather as two possibilities in opposition - without any common ground.   I do understand that the level of action may be varied and thus thought of as a spectrum of action but the power to act (agency) is binary.  Either it exist and one has power to act or it does not exist and the power to act does not exist.

If agency is defined as the power to act, and if actions can be limited to varying degrees, doesn't this mean that the power to act may be  limited to varying degrees, and thus  by definition agency may be limited to varying degrees? 

While it may appear on the surface to have been a binary choice as presented in the pre-existence, the nuanced reality of mortal existence suggests otherwise. Your own example of Jonah is a case in point. If agency was a binary choice, and we all, including Jonah, chose agency,  then according to your understanding, all actions in life would be by the power of agency. Right? This would mean that Jonah had to have been transported by his own power. Otherwise, his power to act in that situation didn't exist, which would mean that agency didn't exist in that situation. And, if the choice was binary, then if agency doesn't exist in certain situations, then it doesn't exist at all.  Whereas, if agency exists in certain situations, and not in others, this would mean that there are varying degrees of agency (based on the situations we face).

 

Quote

Now to Jonah and how he got to Nineveh.  Jonah was swallowed by a very large critter that was in the Mediterranean Sea.  That critter then took Jonah to Nineveh.  The only way by water would be to leave the Mediterranean Sea into the Atlantic - around Africa and then leave salt water into fresh water of a river for several hundred miles to get close to Nineveh where Jonah was deposited and left.   In our time we have vessels that travel the waterways much faster than any critter is known to swim.  And yet there is no modern vessel that could travers the waters in the time that the critter with Jonah did it.  The only possibility was that Jonah was transported to Nineveh - not by his own power but by divine power.

 

If I understand my geography correctly, Nineveh is more than a hundred miles inland. So, unless the large fish is able to travel by sea and land... 

Map-Ancient-Near-East.gif

We understand from the scriptures that the large fish vomited Jonah onto dry ground, and that "Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh." (Jonah 3:3) So, the large fish only took Jonah part way (i.e. by the power of God). Jonah traveled the remaining couple of hundred miles on his own power.

That admixture of divine power ("force") and personal power (agency) would not be logically possible were agency a binary condition of mortality. Right?

I submit that when we chose agency in the pre-existence, we understood that to mean varied degrees of agency, that is until we become as God, entirely empowered to act for ourselves and not be acted upon. In other words, we chose the path towards absolute agency--or as absolute as agency can exist.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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3 hours ago, scottyg said:

My personal view and understanding of Lucifer's plan in removing our agency was not about removing our ability to make personal choices, but removing any consequence of those choices. We would still have the ability to make choices every day, but there would be no negative consequences from evil acts. This would also remove any positive outcomes from good choices, and effectively nullify good and evil altogether. In his plan, one person could be righteous his entire life, while another could lie, kill, cheat, and steal...and both would be given the same reward, because we would not be agents unto ourselves - Lucifer would be our agent. However, as he presented it, this plan of his was impossible. To some it sounded great, but without agency, and the ability to learn from consequences, eternal life would not be possible, because there would be no room for growth. Since we would all be given the same "reward" by default, it would hinder our potential to progress, and without progression, our reward wouldn't actually be anything meaningful...just a state of being, which is in another manner of speaking, damnation. We would not be able to progress. His plan was a great lie.

With regard to Jonah, he still had to make the choice to preach repentance. God will at times guide and direct us in his paths, but we will never be forced to act. Also, I do believe that the people on Earth today have the same opportunity of those of Ninevah. If we truly feel sorrow for our sin, and choose to change, we can be forgiven as they were. I am sure that not every single person in the city chose to repent...just the majority, and that majority prevented destruction. Repentance of an entire city is possible I guess, but would be remarkable.

Well said. 

However, it could also consist of the removal of personal choice, or a combination of the two. Either way, the results would be the same: complete and utter failure.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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3 hours ago, wenglund said:

If agency is defined as the power to act, and if actions can be limited to varying degrees, doesn't this mean that the power to act may be  limited to varying degrees, and thus  by definition agency may be limited to varying degrees? 

While it may appear on the surface to have been a binary choice as presented in the pre-existence, the nuanced reality of mortal existence suggests otherwise. Your own example of Jonah is a case in point. If agency was a binary choice, and we all, including Jonah, chose agency,  then according to your understanding, all actions in life would be by the power of agency. Right? This would mean that Jonah had to have been transported by his own power. Otherwise, his power to act in that situation didn't exist, which would mean that agency didn't exist in that situation. And, if the choice was binary, then if agency doesn't exist in certain situations, then it doesn't exist at all.  Whereas, if agency exists in certain situations, and not in others, this would mean that there are varying degrees of agency (based on the situations we face).

 

If I understand my geography correctly, Nineveh is more than a hundred miles inland. So, unless the large fish is able to travel by sea and land... 

Map-Ancient-Near-East.gif

We understand from the scriptures that the large fish vomited Jonah onto dry ground, and that "Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh." (Jonah 3:3) So, the large fish only took Jonah part way (i.e. by the power of God). Jonah traveled the remaining couple of hundred miles on his own power.

That admixture of divine power ("force") and personal power (agency) would not be logically possible were agency a binary condition of mortality. Right?

I submit that when we chose agency in the pre-existence, we understood that to mean varied degrees of agency, that is until we become as God, entirely empowered to act for ourselves and not be acted upon. In other words, we chose the path towards absolute agency--or as absolute as agency can exist.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks for the discussion - Nineveh is a port city on the  Tigris river.  It is my theory that Jonah was dead in the belly of the creature when he prayed and that he was raised from the dead as a type and shadow of Christ and his death and resurrection.  The creature vomited the remains of Jonah's rotting body on dry land near Nineveh and that there were witnesses that saw Jonah come to life.  This was the reason Nineveh repented without protest - they were frightened into repentance and this is why Jonah did not think their repentance sincere.  

I believe that Jonah was ordained to his mission as a type and shadow of the Christ in the pre-existence and that he exercised his agency in the pre-existence and committed himself voluntarily - accepting his circumstance necessary to complete his mission.   I believe we all come into this life into the circumstances into which we are born and live as an exercise of our agency in the pre-existence.  I believe we were foreordained according to our agency and that nothing in this life happens to us that was not previously known to happen according to our agency.  We all knew that we must repent and that the circumstance that caused us to repent were accepted by our agency in the pre-existence.

I believe when we stand before G-d to accept our resurrection and through our agency that we will make account of our agency and our completion of our mortal assignment and our intent to repent and prepare for our eternal place - all according to our agency and power to act as given us freely of G-d.  Nothing other than our agency determines our place in eternity.  I believe this life is the extension of our agency first granted in the pre-existence - that we came to this life and our circumstance according to our agency.  And for Jonah?  Nothing in his life was not foreordained and by his agency.  If we look at agency as beginning at our birth and ending at our death - we will never make sense of it - we are eternal beings.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

Thanks for the discussion - Nineveh is a port city on the  Tigris river.  It is my theory that Jonah was dead in the belly of the creature when he prayed and that he was raised from the dead as a type and shadow of Christ and his death and resurrection.  The creature vomited the remains of Jonah's rotting body on dry land near Nineveh and that there were witnesses that saw Jonah come to life.  This was the reason Nineveh repented without protest - they were frightened into repentance and this is why Jonah did not think their repentance sincere.  

Not that I disagree with much of what you said, however, If I understand correctly, Jonah was sailing in the Mediterranean sea (he left from Joppa and sailed for Tarshish, both of which are coastal cities on the Mediterranean sea). Whereas, the Tigris empties into the Persian Gulf. If what you theorize is correct, the shortest route (assuming that a semblance of the Suez canal existed in Jonah's day), would still amount to between 6000 and 7000 nautical miles--nearly a 1000 of which would be upstream on the Tigris. Assuming an average speed of 13 knot (which is the top speed for a humpback whale), it would take 19 days and 10 hours, rather than 3 days and nights.

If there wasn't any semblance of the Suez canal at that time, it would have taken more than 34 days at top speed (13 knots) to travel around the Cape of Good Hope.

Whereas, if the giant fish swallowed Jonah no further away from Joppa than Siracusa, Itally,, it would take less than 3 days and nights.

Whatever the case, we know from Jonah 3:4 that Jonah traveled at least one day under his own power.

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I believe that Jonah was ordained to his mission as a type and shadow of the Christ in the pre-existence and that he exercised his agency in the pre-existence and committed himself voluntarily - accepting his circumstance necessary to complete his mission.   I believe we all come into this life into the circumstances into which we are born and live as an exercise of our agency in the pre-existence.  I believe we were foreordained according to our agency and that nothing in this life happens to us that was not previously known to happen according to our agency.  We all knew that we must repent and that the circumstance that caused us to repent were accepted by our agency in the pre-existence.

I believe when we stand before G-d to accept our resurrection and through our agency that we will make account of our agency and our completion of our mortal assignment and our intent to repent and prepare for our eternal place - all according to our agency and power to act as given us freely of G-d.  Nothing other than our agency determines our place in eternity.  I believe this life is the extension of our agency first granted in the pre-existence - that we came to this life and our circumstance according to our agency.  And for Jonah?  Nothing in his life was not foreordained and by his agency.  If we look at agency as beginning at our birth and ending at our death - we will never make sense of it - we are eternal beings.

I wonder if you might be blurring the distinction between fore ordination and predestination, particularly in Jonah's case?

You do realize that if agency is binary, then progress in agency is not possible? In other words, our power to act as pre-mortal spirits or mortals is no different than what our Heavenly Father has had all along. For that matter, the power of an infant would be no different than a grown adult. Does that seem right to you?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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On 3/20/2019 at 4:56 PM, Traveler said:

From time to time we will observe discussions about agency.  What I would be most interested in is:

First.  A short explanation of exactly what you believe constitutes the exercise of agency. 

Second.  A detailed description of your understanding of the epoch of Jonah and how your understanding of Jonah choices corresponds to your understanding of agency.

 

Thanks

 

The Traveler

I just came across a video that describes the transforming power of agency in a young man's life.: Very profound and inspiring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2bFzK2EdIo

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

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