Jane_Doe Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 Just now, AbramM said: Yeah exactly for me it is 100% something a Christian should do but if for whatever reason someone doesn't have a baptism they will still be saved. Note: LDS don't believe a person has it held against them if they never have the opportunity to be baptized in this mortal life. Such a person can (and many many will) rejoice with Him forever (this is actually a big topic). It is the deliberate and unceasing refusal to be baptized, despite being taught the Gospel and given plenty of opportunity where problems are coming up because that is not accepting Christ in the least. Alia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Alia said: Yes as I am LDS I have a different view to Abram but I do understand where he is coming from. I used to be a Baptist and despite my dad being LDS my mom always kept me apart from it, when I first heard about the beliefs whilst at college it was like information overload. The Baptist gospel is simple, the LDS gospel was a minefield. Haha-- I actually find Baptist beliefs to be just as complicated as LDS when you actually get into the meat and potatoes of their theology. For example, a the subject of baptism is one with a LONG conflicted history in Baptist theology. Edited March 22, 2019 by Jane_Doe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Haha-- I actually find Baptist beliefs to be just as complicated as LDS when you actually get into the meat and potatoes of their theology. For example, a the subject of baptism is one with a LONG conflicted history in Baptist theology. Potentially. I would say the Baptist gospel is a simple message. Personally, I found truth in the LDS church but I completely understand how alien the beliefs seem to someone who has grown up in the Baptist church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: It is the deliberate and unceasing refusal to be baptized, despite being taught the Gospel and given plenty of opportunity where problems are coming up because that is not accepting Christ in the least. Yeah if Christ is calling you to do something such as Baptism or anything it is wrong to deny that call, look at Jonah who refused to preach in Nineveh he was wrong to go against God. However, not doing something can't cause you to lose your salvation (such as not getting baptized) the same way getting baptized with water can't save you. In truth I do believe it is important to be baptized I am a Baptist after all 😂I just wouldn't want my girlfriend to believe it is necessary for salvation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 38 minutes ago, AbramM said: They are sinners in need of salvation. So they die having never heard of the word Jesus... not saved then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, anatess2 said: So they die having never heard of the word Jesus... not saved then? It's too complicated an issue to get into here. However, the crux of it is that they aren't saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, AbramM said: Yeah if Christ is calling you to do something such as Baptism or anything it is wrong to deny that call, look at Jonah who refused to preach in Nineveh he was wrong to go against God. However, not doing something can't cause you to lose your salvation (such as not getting baptized) the same way getting baptized with water can't save you. In truth I do believe it is important to be baptized I am a Baptist after all 😂I just wouldn't want my girlfriend to believe it is necessary for salvation Salvation is about the state of your heart. If you are in that state of rebellion, and downright refuse to get baptized ever, yes, that is a major problem with your salvation. If you are in that state of humility and obedience, then being baptized and following Christ's command (like baptism) is something done with celebration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, AbramM said: It's too complicated an issue to get into here. However, the crux of it is that they aren't saved. We’re good with complicated. So, if they’re not saved, how does that square with a just God? How is it the fault of the Sentinel natives that they were born and died on a secluded island? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 I wont be able to reply for a while because I have to go see my girlfriend. Jane_Doe, Alia and Just_A_Guy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 1 minute ago, AbramM said: I wont be able to reply for a while because I have to go see my girlfriend. Have a good talk Do let us know how it goes or if there's anything we can do to help. Just_A_Guy and anatess2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 45 minutes ago, AbramM said: Yeah exactly for me it is 100% something a Christian should do but if for whatever reason someone doesn't have a baptism they will still be saved. So, what’s the point of getting baptized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 3 hours ago, AbramM said: I believe Jesus is who he says he is the only son of God I don't recall Christ ever claiming to be the only son of God, but instead to be the Only Begotten Son of God. The distinction is fairly important, especially in our theology. 1 hour ago, AbramM said: Only Christians will be saved. To say anything other than that is a mockery of Christ's atonement. While we would agree to an extent, your definition and perception of what it means to be saved will be both similar and then altogether different from ours once you come to understand that there is so much more than just being saved, and that there is more than one meaning of the word 'saved'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, AbramM said: I wont be able to reply for a while because I have to go see my girlfriend. You might not see this and hopefully you are not too hasty on this, but those who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ have MANY different beliefs and ideas. The Core of it is that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World. However, we do not know what your girlfriend's beliefs are. They may not be reflected by anything anyone has stated in this thread. We do not know. Hopefully, you can talk to her and find out what her actual beliefs are rather than simply just taking everything you've heard here as her beliefs. There are some basic ideas that those who are Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints believe (and someone noted the articles of faith which is a good baseline summary). However, even then there may be various differing opinions or slants on the same idea. Talking with her is a good idea, but I wouldn't be angry or upset with her. She may honestly have different ideas and beliefs than what people have stated in this thread and she may have been completely honest with you thus far in what she believes and thinks. Edited March 23, 2019 by JohnsonJones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 10 hours ago, anatess2 said: So, what’s the point of getting baptized? It shows obedience. Also, there are blessings that come with Baptism (there are always blessings when we obey God) but salvation isn't one of those blessings. It isn't dependent on Baptism. When the thief on the cross was saved, Christ didn't tell him "I say unto you, you will be with me in paradise but first you must survive this crucifixion and be baptized then you can be with me". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 10 hours ago, anatess2 said: We’re good with complicated. So, if they’re not saved, how does that square with a just God? How is it the fault of the Sentinel natives that they were born and died on a secluded island? All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Those Sentinel Natives included. Alia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 9 hours ago, JohnsonJones said: Talking with her is a good idea, but I wouldn't be angry or upset with her. She may honestly have different ideas and beliefs than what people have stated in this thread and she may have been completely honest with you thus far in what she believes and thinks. I wasn't angry when I spoke to her. Paul says you can't be righteous and angry. I wanted to be righteous and have God involved in our conversation. I did think she hasn't been honest with me so I'm not sure if she will be my Proverbs 31 woman anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, AbramM said: I'm not sure if she will be my Proverbs 31 woman anymore. You are a Baptist through and through 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnsonJones Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, AbramM said: I wasn't angry when I spoke to her. Paul says you can't be righteous and angry. I wanted to be righteous and have God involved in our conversation. I did think she hasn't been honest with me so I'm not sure if she will be my Proverbs 31 woman anymore. Is that because of what you talked about with her today, or what you read in this thread from people who don't know her from a fly on the wall? If it is in any way brought up by what you read in this thread that turned you against her, I'd probably think again about how I was treating her and try to listen more to what she actually stated she believes. There are many different beliefs out there (and you'll find there are even a great deal of disagreements on what some would consider doctrine as set in the church). A prime example is what you brought up about Baptism. We believe that Baptism is necessary to enter Heaven as it was taught by Jesus (unless a man is baptized by water and by the spirit he can in nowise enter the Kingdom of Heaven). John 3:5 This is why many disagree with the idea that no baptism is necessary and that, in fact, it is absolutely necessary. HOWEVER, you have tossed into that variations on this. For example, Mormons do not actually believe one needs to be baptized in this life in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, even though that is also our doctrine that one needs to be. A prime example of this is regarding children under the age of 8. We do not feel they should be baptized, and that there is no need for them to be baptized. Any child that dies thus, would go to heaven. Why? My take on it (and as this will show, we have many different interpretations of the same idea) The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that we must follow the commandments as given by Jesus Christ. We believe that he commanded those that would follow him to be baptized. It is not necessary for one to be baptized in this life, necessarily, but it IS necessary for one who has accepted Jesus Christ to follow his commandments. Thus, one who is "saved" as you might put it, would seek to follow those commandments and thus would seek to follow the example that Jesus Christ himself set. Jesus himself was baptized, and thus one who would follow Jesus and his example would also choose to be baptized. If one says they follow Jesus, and have accepted him, but then refuse to follow him...that shows rebellion against the Lord and a desire to do the opposite of his word. However, in the end, we are only responsible for our own actions. Those actions basically boil down to a single choice. We can either accept the Good and the Lord and his ways, or we can reject them and choose evil. We can only know our own choices. Even then, it is NOT up to us whether we are saved or not. It is up to the Lord. In this, the Lord is the one who sets the conditions and he can save whoever he wants to save. If he wants to say someone goes to heaven regardless of what they did or knew, who are we to argue with him. We are completely reliant upon him and his grace to save us. He can save who he wishes. It is up to us and our OWN actions on what we need to decide. We NEED to follow his commandments once we have chosen to follow him. This shows who we are following. Just like someone who loves the color red will probably want to have it exhibited somewhere that they can see it, the same would apply to Christians. Those that hate the color red, on the otherhand, would probably do what they could to do away with it or not have it in their presence. Our actions do NOT define what we believe, but the exhibit who we are and what we actually believe. This is what Baptism also exhibits. It shows we love the Lord. It shows our love for him. Because we love him we wish to emulate and do as he did. However, it is not the act that saves us, it is the Lord himself and his grace upon us. You'll find that there may be many that are members of our church that would heavily disagree with my thoughts above. Hence, what I said, it is important to disregard what preconceptions you may have gotten from this thread and actually LISTEN to what she said. Perhaps last night something else happened, but it seemed to me that, even with you saying you were going to talk to her, that you had gotten some preconceived notions from this thread and may have had them in your head rather than actually sitting down and seeing what she, herself, might actually feel and think. Obviously, she may be a very strong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in which case, all your thoughts may be correct. ON the otherhand, there are many that really are not all that involved, or really don't delve into the teachings of the Church, or many others who may not even have a testimony of the church even if they have gone to it all their lives that have VERY different beliefs and opinions than anything you saw in this thread. What I'm saying is do not let a single forum topic or single night of discussion suddenly dissolve a relationship that you said was on the edge of marriage. I would find it unfortunate that something that hopefully was so strong, would be so easily destroyed in such a short time. Alia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said: Is that because of what you talked about with her today, or what you read in this thread from people who don't know her from a fly on the wall? If it is in any way brought up by what you read in this thread that turned you against her, I'd probably think again about how I was treating her and try to listen more to what she actually stated she believes. It is what she said to me yesterday, that she doesn't want to stop going to LDS church and that's why she hasn't been coming with me to try new churches. She did say she still wants to marry me and she will change church and come with me. I'm not sure though because she can't marry me and prescribe to Protestant beliefs, God has to put it on her heart. We could be married for a few months or even years and she would want to start going to LDS church again, then it will cause problems. I have to pray about it and fast because I am very confused. 1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said: A prime example of this is regarding children under the age of 8. We do not feel they should be baptized, and that there is no need for them to be baptized. Any child that dies thus, would go to heaven. I was 9 when I was baptized, I have an older sister and a younger sister and they were baptized when they were 5. Which I think is absolutely fine because they felt convicted of their sin and wanted to be baptized. When I was 5 I wasn't convicted of my sin at all, I was just a little child running around. Usually, Baptist parents start panicking if their kids aren't saved by the age of 8. I made my parents wait, my mom told me she used to sneak into my room when I was sleeping and pray over, because she was so worried that I would become a reprobate. 1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said: If one says they follow Jesus, and have accepted him, but then refuse to follow him...that shows rebellion against the Lord and a desire to do the opposite of his word. Yeah for sure I don't want to marry a Christian who has the same beliefs as me but chooses not to follow the Lords commandments. It's what I loved about my girlfriend when I first met her is how she followed the Lord and she lived her faith. I went on lots of dates before with girls from the church I go to but they weren't following the commandments of God closely enough for me to pursue a relationship with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Alia said: You are a Baptist through and through 🤣 I know it is a cliche to say that you want a Proverbs 31 woman. Every one of my friends from church either says they want a Proverbs 31 woman or that they will be a bachelor till the rapture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 11 minutes ago, AbramM said: they will be a bachelor till the rapture. My older brother used to say this all the time, I made a bet with him he would be married by the time he is 25 he got married at 21. 16 minutes ago, AbramM said: my mom told me she used to sneak into my room when I was sleeping and pray over, because she was so worried that I would become a reprobate. Baptist moms are something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, Alia said: My older brother used to say this all the time, I made a bet with him he would be married by the time he is 25 he got married at 21. 😂I don't want to be a bachelor till the rapture. I want to get married 9 minutes ago, Alia said: Baptist moms are something else. I think they are the best at teaching their children about God and leading their kids to Christ. When my dad would try to talk to me about the bible or God I wasn't really interested and I was worried I would say something wrong but with my mom it was never a big deal she would just casually bring up scripture and stories from the bible. They can be a bit over the top some times but they are so powerful spiritually and God uses them so well to direct their children / His children to him. Alia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 17 hours ago, AbramM said: Obviously I am going to speak to her again Figured as much.... Which is why I said your answer was deflecting. As for your girl friend Members of the Church of Jesus Christ are not mindless brain washed drones. Which is why everyone is telling you to talk to her. The best we can do is tell you the standard teachings of the church. How much of it she has accepted, how much she personally values, that is not something we can answer for you. Midwest LDS, Jane_Doe and JohnsonJones 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramM Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 37 minutes ago, estradling75 said: Figured as much.... Which is why I said your answer was deflecting. As for your girl friend Members of the Church of Jesus Christ are not mindless brain washed drones. Which is why everyone is telling you to talk to her. The best we can do is tell you the standard teachings of the church. How much of it she has accepted, how much she personally values, that is not something we can answer for you. I did speak to her. Yes it is rare for 2 people to believe the exact same thing no matter if those 2 people attend the same church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 2 hours ago, AbramM said: It is what she said to me yesterday, that she doesn't want to stop going to LDS church and that's why she hasn't been coming with me to try new churches. She did say she still wants to marry me and she will change church and come with me. I'm not sure though because she can't marry me and prescribe to Protestant beliefs, God has to put it on her heart. We could be married for a few months or even years and she would want to start going to LDS church again, then it will cause problems. I have to pray about it and fast because I am very confused. This is wise. Never have things set up to be "well, *if* you convert, then I'll marry you". That makes a person choose between the human they love and God, which is never a place you want to be or put someone in. You are wise not to do that. 2 hours ago, AbramM said: Yeah for sure I don't want to marry a Christian who has the same beliefs as me but chooses not to follow the Lords commandments. It's what I loved about my girlfriend when I first met her is how she followed the Lord and she lived her faith. I went on lots of dates before with girls from the church I go to but they weren't following the commandments of God closely enough for me to pursue a relationship with them. Bueatifully said. I would recommend taking the time to get to better know your girl, including her beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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