Seminary Curriculum switching to Come Follow Me.


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Beginning January 2020, seminary students will study the same book of scripture used in the Church’s Come, Follow Me study outline for the year. This means that all Church members — including those enrolled in seminary classes — will study the Book of Mormon in 2020.  For Fall 2019, they will do the New Testament. 

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/seminary-program-change-2020

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Well, that sucks for us.  My son just had NT last school year.  So if he's gonna get NT again in the Fall, then they switch in January 2020?  So, he graduates seminary missing half a book?  Or do they not graduate at the end of school term anymore?

Edited by anatess2
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This is where the Church's current obsession with standardization is really going to suck.  At least with the 11-year-olds in YM/YW, there was a phrase that said local areas could adapt the start time to cultural needs. This was a phrase I have considered using to make a case that we should bring all of our 11 year olds into YM/YW in August and run the program year from August - July (which corresponds with the school year here). 

I am really struggling to see the benefit of this change for anyone, since the seminary lessons in no way correspond with the Come Follow Me lessons. is this a case of a good idea being pushed too far?

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10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Well, that sucks for us.  My son just had NT last school year.  So if he's gonna get NT again in the Fall, then they switch in January 2020?  So, he graduates seminary missing half a book?  Or do they not graduate at the end of school term anymore?

I *think* it goes like this: Freshman starts seminary in the fall, does the second half of that book of scripture, then does the other half spring of their senior year...

Honestly, at this point I'm guessing we're get a huge overhaul to the seminary system announced in GC, along with the changes to the Mutual / sr primary activities.  

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5 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I am really struggling to see the benefit of this change for anyone, since the seminary lessons in no way correspond with the Come Follow Me lessons. is this a case of a good idea being pushed too far?

I'm thinking that ideally it's not total repetition because a seminary class can go more in depth on subjects than a Sunday School class.  It also can give that more structured depth if a family isn't doing much at home.  If a family is doing stuff at home, a youth could share insights.

But I could also seeing a low-quality teacher just reading the manual and another one just reading the manual on Sunday.  Which, in all fairness, such low quality teachers also were low quality before CFM, so that doesn't change.  CFM does strive to encourage discussion, and there is that big push for more teacher training, which is good. 

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27 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

This is where the Church's current obsession with standardization is really going to suck.  At least with the 11-year-olds in YM/YW, there was a phrase that said local areas could adapt the start time to cultural needs. This was a phrase I have considered using to make a case that we should bring all of our 11 year olds into YM/YW in August and run the program year from August - July (which corresponds with the school year here). 

I am really struggling to see the benefit of this change for anyone, since the seminary lessons in no way correspond with the Come Follow Me lessons. is this a case of a good idea being pushed too far?

Although I have some sympathy for the above idea, I disagree. Standardization is far more than an "obsession". If the Catholic experience has taught us anything, it is that one cannot maintain consistent ecclesiastical doctrine and practices in a far-flung, global church without firmly established central control. As Americans (at least traditional, non-AOC Americans), we tend to cringe and recoil from such wording, which in a secular worldly sense would be poison indeed. But we are not talking about a "liberal Western democracy"; we are talking about a kingdom, specifically God's kingdom.

The correlation decisions of the late 1980s and 1990s were absolutely essential administrative foundations for the Church moving into the 21st century. Correlating even which lessons get taught every Sunday might seem like overkill, but I am convinced it's not. When you empower every stake president in the world to, in effect, run his own Church organization however he sees fit—well, 3500 stakes aren't all going to just naturally fall in line. We depend on revelation to run God's kingdom, but it is naive to suppose that every stake president doing his own thing as he sees fit is somehow magically going to make a highly tuned, well-oiled Church organization throughout the world. It does not work that way, not in the world and not in the kingdom of God.

If correlation of our administrative practices is thus necessary, how much moreso correlation of how we teach the doctrines of eternity? Sure, local customs and understanding must often be taken into account. But in the end, we are of the kingdom of God first and foremost. The culture of THAT kingdom should supersede local beliefs, politics, and customs. That's what the correlation of gospel teaching aims to do.

I think it's too bad in a sense that seminary will now follow along with Sunday School and such (if I read the release correctly). But I can also see that maybe that's for the best, and a few years from now I might have changed my mind completely.

In any case, the times, they are a-changing. I'm putting my personal misgivings aside, putting my shoulder to the wheel, and putting my faith in the Lord and in the decisions of his anointed. In the end, I'm confident we'll find it was truly for the best. Whistling past the graveyard? Maybe, a little bit, but also a sincere proclamation of belief and a hope in a bright future, albeit one that doesn't look exactly like how we do things today.

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They did something similar back when I was in high school and they wanted things a little more aligned with what was happening in Sunday school. They had to offer a special class for the seniors so they wouldn’t miss out on the book they hadn’t done. So seniors were studying one thing while everyone else started on the new one that the seniors had already done.

I have longed to see seminary less entrenched in the public school schedule, especially here in Utah. It is incredibly hard for homeschoolers and those who chose alternative education to find a good time for seminary for their kids here in my area. This seems like it may be a step in that direction. This is going to be quite the transition.

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The main reason behind this change is to increase the likelihood that Gospel discussion will occur in the home. For some parents it will be easier to talk to their children about seminary because they know what is being studied, and it helps the kids learn and see different sides of the instruction from different individuals...themselves, parents/family, Sunday School teachers, YM and YW teachers, and now Seminary teachers. The material in the curriculum is what we need at this time. Everyone now knows what everyone is learning, and the discussions and education need to take place in the home. Church education will be changing more in the future. This is more preparation to fortify us and our youth from what is to come in the world.

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13 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

One revelation from the video clip at that link:  Elder Holland uses a smart watch.  Is that a Fitbit Versa?

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On 3/22/2019 at 1:11 PM, Connie said:

They did something similar back when I was in high school and they wanted things a little more aligned with what was happening in Sunday school. They had to offer a special class for the seniors so they wouldn’t miss out on the book they hadn’t done. So seniors were studying one thing while everyone else started on the new one that the seniors had already done.

I have longed to see seminary less entrenched in the public school schedule, especially here in Utah. It is incredibly hard for homeschoolers and those who chose alternative education to find a good time for seminary for their kids here in my area. This seems like it may be a step in that direction. This is going to be quite the transition.

How about at 6:00 AM like just about everywhere in the world  except Utah (and parts of several other western states). 

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On 3/22/2019 at 11:15 AM, MarginOfError said:

This is where the Church's current obsession with standardization is really going to suck. 

At first I was somewhat put off by your characterization here.  Not that it sucks.  It does.  So does any change.  But the use of the word "obsession" pricked me.  Then...  After a while, I had to think about that word.  And in many ways, I think the definition fits. 

But instead of complaining about it and protesting, I had to ask myself,"I wonder if there's a reason for that."  I've come to the conclusion that there is.

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8 hours ago, carlimac said:
On 3/22/2019 at 10:11 AM, Connie said:

I have longed to see seminary less entrenched in the public school schedule, especially here in Utah. It is incredibly hard for homeschoolers and those who chose alternative education to find a good time for seminary for their kids here in my area. This seems like it may be a step in that direction. This is going to be quite the transition.

How about at 6:00 AM like just about everywhere in the world  except Utah (and parts of several other western states). 

The problem is that seminary is a collective school class, unless you do home study (and my experience is that home study seminary is a second-rate product). And when you do a collective school experience, you as an individual rarely get to call the shots how that is done. If most people (students or, more likely, their parents) want to meet during school hours, the class meets during school hours. I don't know that Utah students have the option of early-morning seminary.

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35 minutes ago, Vort said:

The problem is that seminary is a collective school class, unless you do home study (and my experience is that home study seminary is a second-rate product). And when you do a collective school experience, you as an individual rarely get to call the shots how that is done. If most people (students or, more likely, their parents) want to meet during school hours, the class meets during school hours. I don't know that Utah students have the option of early-morning seminary.

I don't see why not. Homeschooling families collaborate on lots of other kinds of experiences- field trips , weekly PE and music classes. They could figure out Seminary if they really wanted to. If early morning Seminary can be done in the rest of the world I don't know why it can't be done in Utah. In fact when we lived in Idaho there was an early morning Seminary at our high school for the kids that didn't have room in their schedules for it during the school day and for the kids that attended private and charter schools. Also I had a friend who would be in her 40s now who attended early morning seminary in Provo.  

My post was part snark. Utah kids are so pampered when it comes to Seminary! My family has done both RTS and EMS. Early morning is exponentially harder to experience. And it's and often times less educational depending on whichever teacher gets "called"-unlike Utah kids who get Seminary in the middle of the school day by a professionally trained teacher. 

 Homeschooling families have so much flexibility- which is one of the main reasons I've heard they do it. I have heard numerous moms tout that they don't have to get up early and can even do school in their pjs if they want to. They more than public schoolers should be able, ESPECIAlly in Utah where there are so many LDS home-schooling families, to figure out how to get a teacher called from some ward to teach them at 6 AM. They just probably prefer not to do it that early. Ha! If only personal preference held any weight outside of the "bubble" on this matter. I'd bet at least 98% of seminary students and at least 75% of their parents prefer to not have it at 6 AM out here in outer darkness. Yes that's what it feels like at 5:30 AM carting these half asleep kids to a class they don't get much out of. 

 

Edited by carlimac
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33 minutes ago, Vort said:

 I don't know that Utah students have the option of early-morning seminary.

I live in Sandy.... I wish I did not need to drop my son off for early-morning seminary. 😴

I do know that the option of early-morning seminary fills up fast so not all students can get in

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24 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I'd bet at least 98% of seminary students and at least 75% of their parents prefer to not have it at 6 AM out here in outer darkness. Yes that's what it feels like at 5:30 AM carting these half asleep kids to a class they don't get much out of. 

Our Seminary out in the Mission Field of Florida starts at 5:45AM.  The neighborhood High School first period bell is at 7AM.  We do also have the option for online seminary.  I only know of 2 kids in our Stake who chose to do the online seminary thing.  You would think they're half asleep at 5:45AM, but they're not.  It's life over here.  You go to bed at 9PM, wake up at 5AM by 5:45 you're wide awake trolling the seminary teacher.  Some kids live around the edges of ward boundaries and it takes them an hour to get to Church... they're awake at 4:30.

 

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Our Seminary out in the Mission Field of Florida starts at 5:45AM.  The neighborhood High School first period bell is at 7AM.  We do also have the option for online seminary.  I only know of 2 kids in our Stake who chose to do the online seminary thing.  You would think they're half asleep at 5:45AM, but they're not.  It's life over here.  You go to bed at 9PM, wake up at 5AM by 5:45 you're wide awake trolling the seminary teacher.  Some kids live around the edges of ward boundaries and it takes them an hour to get to Church... they're awake at 4:30.

 

And that's your experience. Ours is slightly different. Seminary starts at 5:50. School first bell rings at 7:20. My husband has subbed in Seminary many times and he can guarantee that all the kids are not wide awake. And he's a far more engaging teacher than they normally have. The reality is that some kids can make it to bed by 8:30 or 9:00 but many can't. Mine have after school activities till 5:00 or later. One is going straight from track to driver's ed for three hours. And then there is Mutual once a week that takes another two hours of their evening time on Tuesdays.  Some kids have more honors and AP classes- ( my 9th and 10th graders do which is another pet peeve! The school is pushing the kids to take these classes in the lower grades to raise school ratings. Grr!)  Some kids have after school jobs which prevent them from getting their studies done so they can get to bed early. In fact I'd say more kids than not are up waaay past 9 PM. It's been this way for all my 7 kids. I know it's this way for many kids in our ward.

I'm on pick up duty several times a week- taking the non-driving kids from Seminary to school. I have to admit they generally come out smiling and laughing ( especially when one kids burns his popcorn in the microwave time after time and all the alarm lights in the building start flashing and a firetruck shows up.) So it's benefiting them socially. Which is good for them being in such a minority at school.  I just don't think it's good for them physically or mentally. My most diligent, organized and motivated child who always gets right to her homework and makes her bed in the morning was in tears (again) last week because she was so tired.  I hesitate to say it's benefiting them much spiritually, either. This year anyway.  

Edited by carlimac
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1 hour ago, carlimac said:

And that's your experience. Ours is slightly different. Seminary starts at 5:50. School first bell rings at 7:20. My husband has subbed in Seminary many times and he can guarantee that all the kids are not wide awake. And he's a far more engaging teacher than they normally have. The reality is that some kids can make it to bed by 8:30 or 9:00 but many can't. Mine have after school activities till 5:00 or later. One is going straight from track to driver's ed for three hours. And then there is Mutual once a week that takes another two hours of their evening time on Tuesdays.  Some kids have more honors and AP classes- ( my 9th and 10th graders do which is another pet peeve! The school is pushing the kids to take these classes in the lower grades to raise school ratings. Grr!)  Some kids have after school jobs which prevent them from getting their studies done so they can get to bed early. In fact I'd say more kids than not are up waaay past 9 PM. It's been this way for all my 7 kids. I know it's this way for many kids in our ward.

I'm on pick up duty several times a week- taking the non-driving kids from Seminary to school. I have to admit they generally come out smiling and laughing ( especially when one kids burns his popcorn in the microwave time after time and all the alarm lights in the building start flashing and a firetruck shows up.) So it's benefiting them socially. Which is good for them being in such a minority at school.  I just don't think it's good for them physically or mentally. My most diligent, organized and motivated child who always gets right to her homework and makes her bed in the morning was in tears (again) last week because she was so tired.  I hesitate to say it's benefiting them much spiritually, either. This year anyway.  

Yes, this is my experience.  And our ward's experience.  We talked about this before on this forum already.  Everybody knows Seminary is at 5:45AM so all church activities for seminary-aged kids end by 8PM.  Those who live an hour away from Church gets the short end of the stick and so if you have an activity that goes beyond 8PM, you're going to hear about it quickly.

Kids growing up on a farm (especially in the Philippines where sunrise is within 15 minutes of 5:30AM every single day of the year) would look at my kids and think they're lazy bones for waking up so late... there's no question that Farm kids are NOT physically nor mentally deprived for waking up hours before the crack of dawn.

And here's my kids' activities right now - Monday, piano class, FHE.  Tuesday, church youth.  Wednesday - tutoring, jiu jitsu.  Thursday - tutoring, chess club, rifle club.  Friday - drums, youth basketball.  Saturday - jiujitsu and chores.  Both kids have 8 periods in school, one kid is in Arts School (tons of performances) and 4 AP classes.  The other kid is in the IB program plus jROTC.  They're home by 4PM from school, they do their homework, dinner by 6PM then they go off on their activities, home by 8:30, bed by 9PM.  If the activity doesn't fit that schedule, it's not added to the schedule.  If homework is not finished by dinner, they skip whatever is the activity after dinner to finish homework.  Performances mess up the schedule but it's my kids' thing so it's added to the schedule - usually we bring homework and eat out for performances.  My oldest kid started driving over a year ago so they wake up on their own and go to seminary.  It's the start of their day - the thing that marks... Ready, Set, Go!  It's a New Day!

If my kids are crying because they're overworked and overtired (hasn't happened yet) - it would be because they have too many activities - not because they have Seminary at 5:45AM.  So we'd be paring down their activities. 

And here are my husband and I's activities - Monday - FHE, Tuesday - callings, Wednesday - movie, Thursday - movie, Friday - movie.  Saturday - movie.  Hah hah.

P.S. - my oldest kid doesn't get tutoring anymore (he's senior year) - so tutoring for him is actually his job - he teaches piano and makes $15/30 minutes!

 

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15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, this is my experience.  And our ward's experience.  We talked about this before on this forum already.

Kids growing up on a farm (especially in the Philippines where sunrise is within 15 minutes of 5:30AM every single day of the year) would look at my kids and think they're lazy bones for waking up so late... there's no question that Farm kids are NOT physically nor mentally deprived for waking up hours before the crack of dawn.

And here's my kids' activities right now - Monday, piano class, FHE.  Tuesday, church youth.  Wednesday - tutoring, jiu jitsu.  Thursday - tutoring, chess club, rifle club.  Friday - drums, youth basketball.  Saturday - jiujitsu and chores.  Both kids have 8 periods in school, one kid is in Arts School (tons of performances) and 4 AP classes.  The other kid is in the IB program plus jROTC.  They're home by 4PM from school, they do their homework, dinner by 6PM then they go off on their activities, home by 8:30, bed by 9PM.  If the activity doesn't fit that schedule, it's not added to the schedule.  If homework is not finished by dinner, they skip whatever is the activity after dinner to finish homework.  Performances mess up the schedule but it's my kids' thing so it's added to the schedule - usually we bring homework and eat out for performances.  My oldest kid started driving over a year ago so they wake up on their own and go to seminary.  It's the start of their day - the thing that marks... Ready, Set, Go!  It's a New Day!

If my kids are crying because they're overworked and overtired (hasn't happened yet) - it would be because they have too many activities - not because they have Seminary at 5:45AM.  So we'd be paring down their activities. 

And here are my husband and I's activities - Monday - FHE, Tuesday - callings, Wednesday - movie, Thursday - movie, Friday - movie.  Saturday - movie.  Hah hah.

 

 

Well it's clear that the kids in the Phillipines and FL are more righteous, less wimpy ( no tears)  and better managed than the ones in MD.  😜  (Sarcasm button on!) 

My point is that your experience in your location and your home is yours. Mine is mine. You're right about your experience. I'm right about mine. 

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8 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Well it's clear that the kids in the Phillipines and FL are more righteous, less wimpy ( no tears)  and better managed than the ones in MD.  😜  (Sarcasm button on!) 

My point is that your experience in your location and your home is yours. Mine is mine. You're right about your experience. I'm right about mine. 

See... this is how discussions degrade to silliness.  (not about your sarcasm button).  The fact that you felt it necessary to say the bolded statement above.  The objective of forums is to learn from the experiences of others to see how they are different from yours... then maybe there's something there you can use if your kids are crying because they're too tired.  There's nobody saying "my parenting is superior to yours".

But yes, I am saying you are wrong for your idea that kids who wake up before the crack of dawn are physically and mentally "un benefitted" (dunno the proper word here).  There's just too many societal experiences proving otherwise such that the saying, "Early to bed, early to rise, makes a person healthy, wealthy, and wise" is a thing.

And while I'm on the subject - I want Trump, or whoever is in charge of these things, to make DST permanent year-round.

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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See... this is how discussions degrade to silliness.  (not about your sarcasm button).  The fact that you felt it necessary to say the bolded statement above.  The objective of forums is to learn from the experiences of others to see how they are different from yours... then maybe there's something there you can use if your kids are crying because they're too tired.  There's nobody saying "my parenting is superior to yours".

But yes, I am saying you are wrong for your idea that kids who wake up before the crack of dawn are physically and mentally "un benefitted" (dunno the proper word here).  There's just too many societal experiences proving otherwise such that the saying, "Early to bed, early to rise, makes a person healthy, wealthy, and wise" is a thing.

And while I'm on the subject - I want Trump, or whoever is in charge of these things, to make DST permanent year-round.

And perhaps you could learn from our experience. And sympathize. But the I can't expect that of you. 

https://childmind.org/article/teenagers-sleep-deprived/

Many other resources are out there that have come to the conclusion that teens are not as healthy or happy due to the pressure they are feeling on all sides and due to the sleep they are losing. The sleep they ARE getting may be less renewing, more disrupting, too, due to this pressure.  

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

The problem is that seminary is a collective school class, unless you do home study (and my experience is that home study seminary is a second-rate product). And when you do a collective school experience, you as an individual rarely get to call the shots how that is done. If most people (students or, more likely, their parents) want to meet during school hours, the class meets during school hours. I don't know that Utah students have the option of early-morning seminary.

I doubt it has much to do with the collective experience thing.  It more than likely has to do with the accreditation. Seminary is a fully accredited program, and those who complete it are eligible for missionary service in areas that have stricter requirements, such as Brazil--to serve in Brazil, you must have completed a four year accredited religious training program. To open Seminary up to homeschool would require tracking the number of hours taught, that lesson materials are covered, etc etc.  It would be an enormous administrative burden, and a handful of homeschoolers shirking the requirements even a little could put the whole accreditation at risk. Given the costs, benefits, and risks, I'd be surprised to see a homeschool seminary option.  I think online will be as close as it gets.

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5 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

I doubt it has much to do with the collective experience thing.  It more than likely has to do with the accreditation. Seminary is a fully accredited program, and those who complete it are eligible for missionary service in areas that have stricter requirements, such as Brazil--to serve in Brazil, you must have completed a four year accredited religious training program. To open Seminary up to homeschool would require tracking the number of hours taught, that lesson materials are covered, etc etc.  It would be an enormous administrative burden, and a handful of homeschoolers shirking the requirements even a little could put the whole accreditation at risk. Given the costs, benefits, and risks, I'd be surprised to see a homeschool seminary option.  I think online will be as close as it gets.

Well, then kids who are homeschooled just wouldn't be sent to Brazil. I really don't think it's that serious of an issue. If people can meet all the requirements of Homeschool, they can keep track of how many hours their kids attend Seminary. Again, why can stakes outside Utah do it but Utah can't?

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