Soup

[Just_A_Guy]

This is stunningly insightful:

There is a genre of Mormon (I use Mormon advisedly instead of LDS Christian) whose attitude is that they like the gospel, but . . .

They like our strong family culture, but
don’t like how we encourage early marriage,
don’t like how don’t put a lot of emphasis on career for women,
think we are hung up and narrow minded on pornography, on divorce, on premarital sex . . .

They like our health, but
a little coffee and tea are harmless
social drinking is actually a good thing
vaping is fun
marijuana just relaxes people

They like our functioning community but
why are we so exclusive
why do we require so much commitment
why don’t we fit in more

These people aren’t stupid. 

They are parasites.

They are drawing down on the benefit of our strong social norms while personally not helping to pay for them. Instead, they sell the norms out by signalling how cool and unconventional they are. They are eroding the things they purport to like for personal convenience and for personal status gain. They want to eat soup, but are selling off the bowls and spoons.

The tree of life is great, but wouldn’t it be better if it were more like a foundationless tower full of fine-dressed people mocking and pointing?

[Fether]

My heart leaped as this put into words something I have been seeing for so long.

Where did you find this?

[Guest Mores]

Good essay.  I believe this is often called the "Yes, but..." Mormons.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Mores

[NeuroTypical]

Parasite is a strong word, but I wouldn't be surprised to find this is what motivates some LDS folks.   About every third blog post I read from the Thirdhour young'uns make me wonder if they don't fit in here somewhere.

The solution, of course, is to continue missionary work among our less-testimony-rooted members, as well as non members.  Gotta love everybody genuinely - kind of hard to do that when you're calling them parasites. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by NeuroTypical

[Guest Mores]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Parasite is a strong word, but I wouldn't be surprised to find this is what motivates some LDS folks.   About every third blog post I read from the Thirdhour young'uns make me wonder if they don't fit in here somewhere.

 

The solution, of course, is to continue missionary work among our less-testimony-rooted members, as well as non members.  Gotta love everybody genuinely - kind of hard to do that when you're calling them parasites. 

I tend to agree.  Honey-vinegar.

[Vort]

Just now, Mores said:

I tend to agree.  Honey-vinegar.

An interesting observation is that if you actually do the test, you will find that you attract more flies with vinegar than with honey.

This does not just stand the saying on its head; I think it reveals truth. There is a reason our "vinegar" Church and the gospel it preaches continues to attract certain people, mainly those who flee from the "honey" of the world.

[Guest Mores]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

An interesting observation is that if you actually do the test, you will find that you attract more flies with vinegar than with honey.

I believe we read the same columns.  I had heard that as well.  Nevertheless, the saying is as the saying goes.

[unixknight]

49 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Parasite is a strong word, but I wouldn't be surprised to find this is what motivates some LDS folks.   About every third blog post I read from the Thirdhour young'uns make me wonder if they don't fit in here somewhere.

I think it has a lot to do with wanting the world to see us as unusual, perhaps, but not incompatible with it.  

What I mean by that is (and I used to be guilty of this myself) it's sometimes hard, when telling someone about our faith, to resist the urge to present it as being easy to relate to.  Sure, we can't have coffee and tea but some types of tea are okay and boy, do I sure miss coffee.  I totally get where you're coming from!  But it's not so bad because when I want caffeine I can just have a Pepsi so... see?  We're cool!  And yeah... I know sometimes members of the Church can come across as being kinda snooty but don't worry we aren't all like them... (However 'them' is defined... remember, we're cool!)  Oh, and don't worry about those old things like polygamy or black people and the Priesthood... that's all in the past!  We're COOL now!  Oh, you heard that this or that is a doctrine that's really weird?  Yeah, haha I agree it's weird but it isn't really emphasized/talked about/a big deal do it's okay you can ignore it when forming your opinion of our Church!

I like to think I wasn't quite this bad, but you get what I mean.  And if you do this, ask yourself whether it's really just that you feel embarrassed by some of this stuff.

I don't particularly care if my non-member peers think the Church is cool.  Not anymore.  The world we live in had made it abundantly clear that its values are not our values... so why, exactly, am I supposed to concern myself with what people think?  If someone is open to the Holy Ghost, then they'll understand the truth of it whether it's fashionable or not.  It's not up to me to sell it with a hip, contemporary veneer to make it look more approachable.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Parasite is a strong word, but I wouldn't be surprised to find this is what motivates some LDS folks.   About every third blog post I read from the Thirdhour young'uns make me wonder if they don't fit in here somewhere.

The solution, of course, is to continue missionary work among our less-testimony-rooted members, as well as non members.  Gotta love everybody genuinely - kind of hard to do that when you're calling them parasites. 

I agree that parasite is too strong. To me, a better term is "fowls of the air" that "lodge under the shadow" of the gospel tree, as analogized in the Parable of the Mustard Seed--a point that a family member brought to my attention during yesterday's Come Follow Me home study.. 

I prefer the more charitable term because there are under-developed aspects of my soul that fit the description (I am far from perfect), and I have beloved family and friends who may currently be more wholly inclined that way than I.  

The value I see in viewing it more charitably is the hope that when I stand before the perfect Savior with all my imperfections a-glare,  he might view me as a "fowl of the air" rather than a parasite, 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

This is stunningly insightful:

There is a genre of Mormon (I use Mormon advisedly instead of LDS Christian) whose attitude is that they like the gospel, but . . .

They like our strong family culture, but
don’t like how we encourage early marriage,
don’t like how don’t put a lot of emphasis on career for women,
think we are hung up and narrow minded on pornography, on divorce, on premarital sex . . .

Well, considering the views of young people today and when they feel they should get married you just described 75% of those young people under the age of 30.

Not a good start...

 

Quote

They like our health, but
a little coffee and tea are harmless
social drinking is actually a good thing
vaping is fun
marijuana just relaxes people

Maybe not coffee and tea, but it used to be any caffeinated drinks and most drugs.  Considering Utah's opoid difficulties and other problems, along with how strongly the push was among Mormons to accept caffeinated drinks to the point that it's no longer even spoken as something...I'd say...even if it's not as strong...that's another 25% of Mormons at least...

Quote

They like our functioning community but
why are we so exclusive
why do we require so much commitment
why don’t we fit in more

And...considering how many less actives there are and those that are full tithe payers and regular temple goers...there's another 90% gone..

Quote

These people aren’t stupid. 

They are parasites. 

They are drawing down on the benefit of our strong social norms while personally not helping to pay for them. Instead, they sell the norms out by signalling how cool and unconventional they are. They are eroding the things they purport to like for personal convenience and for personal status gain. They want to eat soup, but are selling off the bowls and spoons. 

The tree of life is great, but wouldn’t it be better if it were more like a foundationless tower full of fine-dressed people mocking and pointing?

 

 

So, when someone calls 75%+25+90% =??? 

Well...there's probably some overlap...so we'll just go with 95% instead of 190% (which doesn't make sense)...

So when someone calls 95% of a Church's membership parasites (or at least those under the age of 30)...(and if a body is taken over by more than just 50% of parasites...much less than 95%...it's normally quite dead)...it sounds more like they are talking about a non-existent church that they have in their minds rather than the Church we may be currently part of.  Or are they saying the REAL membership of the church that supports it is really something under a million members?

Or are they predicting that the Church is going to be dead once those under 30 are the majority in the church??

I think it doesn't really convey the thought they have.  It makes a more elitest vs. the non-elite type idea.

Why those specific 3 items?  Why not R-rated movies, or Pornography (a much bigger plague I think currently in the church), or Rock Music, or many other various items we look at?

We all have our quirks and personal favorite sins we need to overcome, trying to specify why we are necessarily better and more chosen than our fellow members may not always be the best way to try to say We are better than 95% of everyone else.

Obviously, I may say that at times (thus the author is not alone), but at least try to disguise it a little bit more humbly than simply trying to be so blatant that one is calling everyone else a sinner but me/you/whoever....

Edited March 25, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[mikbone]

Shortcuts to exaltation still don’t work.

 

I’m so #ConferenceReady

[Guest Mores]

13 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Well, considering the views of young people today and when they feel they should get married you just described 75% of those young people under the age of 30.

So, you're saying that 75% of the active membership of the Church under 30 believe they should wait for marriage until 30 years or over?  Just where are you getting that data from?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Mores

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, Mores said:

So, you're saying that 75% of the active membership of the Church under 30 believe pre-marital sex should no longer be considered a sin?  Just where are you getting that data from?

Nope.  That's not what I wrote.

75% of the Young Adults under 30 don't believe in getting married young.  In fact, the Church currently has a difficulty in the Young Adults getting married before 24 or 25 at this point.  One reason why it was reasonably easy to move the missionary age back for Women to 19 was because they weren't getting married at a young age anyways.

The Culture today in the Church is not one where the young people are getting married particularly young.  They may have a younger marrying age than the culture they are currently in (so, average is slightly lower than 28, or 27.5 for woman and 29.5 for men in the US) but not really specifically at a young age (18-20 for girls, 21-23 for boys).

Edited March 25, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[Guest Mores]

20 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

(so, average is slightly lower than 28, or 27.5 for woman and 29.5 for men in the US) but not really specifically at a young age (18-20 for girls, 21-23 for boys).

Source data, please.

[Guest MormonGator]

22 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The Culture today in the Church is not one where the young people are getting married particularly young.  

JJ I want you to think about this one more time. 

I'm a convert, and one thing that stunned me was how young LDS are when they get married. That hasn't changed. At all. The culture is still heavily invested in marrying young. Sure, my experiences don't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, but most missionaries I know are married within 2 years of returning home. Easily. In fact, I can think of two that aren't married out of the 50+ that I've gotten to know. 

[anatess2]

37 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Nope.  That's not what I wrote.

75% of the Young Adults under 30 don't believe in getting married young.  In fact, the Church currently has a difficulty in the Young Adults getting married before 24 or 25 at this point.  One reason why it was reasonably easy to move the missionary age back for Women to 19 was because they weren't getting married at a young age anyways.

The Culture today in the Church is not one where the young people are getting married particularly young.  They may have a younger marrying age than the culture they are currently in (so, average is slightly lower than 28, or 27.5 for woman and 29.5 for men in the US) but not really specifically at a young age (18-20 for girls, 21-23 for boys).

So... anecdotal from my neck of the woods.  One of the people in our ward is getting married next month.  She's 24 years old.  It's joked about that WHEW!  She finally got married!  Especially by her parents.  Hah hah.  But yeah, in our ward, that's oooold to get married - male or female.  Her younger sister is 19 and she's engaged to be married - she set her wedding date to next year because she says - this year is my sister's year.

My husband was 21 when we got married.

My son is 17 and if he wasn't planning on going on a mission he'd be married soon after graduating high school.  If his girlfriend waits for his mission, they'd be married not too long after he gets home.  I'm fairly certain of it.  His girlfriend is currently going to BYU-I.  Her roommate is not going on a mission because she's taking "Wife Studies" at BYU-I.  Hah hah.

Edited March 25, 2019 by anatess2

[unixknight]

I think there's a flip side to the coin presented in the OP.

While it's true that there's a problem when cultural influences start eroding the high, strict standards by which we live, there's also a problem, I feel, when people give themselves standards that aren't even doctrinal or are greater than what is set forth - and then view themselves as more righteous for living by them. 

[Guest Mores]

38 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I think there's a flip side to the coin presented in the OP.

While it's true that there's a problem when cultural influences start eroding the high, strict standards by which we live, there's also a problem, I feel, when people give themselves standards that aren't even doctrinal or are greater than what is set forth - and then view themselves as more righteous for living by them. 

You're absolutely right.  I never meant that JJ was wrong (although I tend to think he is).  I simply asked for source materials for his claims.  I'd find them interesting.

As far as the litany of faults described in the OP, I'd find the marrying young to be the least of my concerns.  Funny that this one item was the primary one that he chose to focus on.  I found the remainder of his arguments nihil ad rem.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Mores

[Just_A_Guy]

8 minutes ago, Mores said:

 nihil ad rem.

Marry me.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

While it's true that there's a problem when cultural influences start eroding the high, strict standards by which we live, there's also a problem, I feel, when people give themselves standards that aren't even doctrinal or are greater than what is set forth - and then view themselves as more righteous for living by them. 

Can you give me real life examples of this? I hear this all the time but have never experienced it beyond me prematurely judging someone of being guilty of this. I’ve never ACTUALLY seen it.

I ask this because I tend to only hear this argument from people that don’t follow the rules... as a tactic to steer people away from their misdeeds by pointing a finger at another. Similar to how the arguement for the “spirit” is the law only comes from people who don’t like the “letter”.

[Midwest LDS]

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

Can you give me real life examples of this? I hear this all the time but have never experienced it beyond me prematurely judging someone of being guilty of this. I’ve never ACTUALLY seen it.

I ask this because I tend to only hear this argument from people that don’t follow the rules... as a tactic to steer people away from their misdeeds by pointing a finger at another. Similar to how the arguement for the “spirit” is the law only comes from people who don’t like the “letter”.

I've seen it. When I was a teenager, my Bishop's daughter married a recent convert. He was waiting tables when one of the people sitting there explained to him that the only people truly following the WOW abstained from ice cubes and certain kinds of bread. When I ordered a Coke my MIL explained to my nephew that I was drinking an adult beverage when he asked what it was (I found that one more funny than insulting because I love my inlaws dearly but still), another brother in one of my wards would go on and on about the proper way to pass the Sacrament but refused to pay his income taxes and left the church when he had his temple recommend taken from him.

These are all very different examples and some are very minor. I don't think they are widespread or more of a problem then not living the Gospel enough, but we members do still struggle with straining at a gnat and trying to swallow a camel at times

Edited March 25, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Can you give me real life examples of this? I hear this all the time but have never experienced it beyond me prematurely judging someone of being guilty of this. I’ve never ACTUALLY seen it.

I ask this because I tend to only hear this argument from people that don’t follow the rules... as a tactic to steer people away from their misdeeds by pointing a finger at another. Similar to how the arguement for the “spirit” is the law only comes from people who don’t like the “letter”.

Fair question, and yeah I can think of a couple.

My oldest son as well as a couple of friends of mine suffered greatly as a result of what they perceived to be a hard rule about dating returned missionaries only.  In both cases I'm thinking of, these  guys had girls in their wards who were interested in them, but dropped hem like a hot potato when it came out that they hadn't served missions.  Now, making a personal choice of who to date/marry is perfectly fine, but the rationale was always to cite it as a rule that most people failed to meet the lofty standards of.  (Mind you, this was before President Monson became the head of the Church.  You know, they  guy who also dind't serve a mission.)

In the same ward, there were a few people who signalled their virtue by not watching any movie rated 'R' regardless of the reason, and making sure that everybody else knew it.  Again, making a persnal choice about what movies you watch is perfectly fine, but they too were citing it as if it were a doctrinal rule.  (As if the Church would base doctrine on the judgement of a movie organization that doesn't even share our values.)  It wasn't enough to just say "I don't watch R rated movies, regardless of the content."  It's another thing entirely to pass one's self off as a superior Saint for it.

You also see this in people who donate extra at tithing or Fast Sunday and then look down on others who simply do what's required. 

Same thing with the WoW.  Abstain from Coffee, tea, tobacco, alchohol, etc... But anybody who drinks Pepsi or Coke is one of them borderline apostate jack Mormons.  Seen that a few times, too.

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

JJ I want you to think about this one more time. 

I'm a convert, and one thing that stunned me was how young LDS are when they get married. That hasn't changed. At all. The culture is still heavily invested in marrying young. Sure, my experiences don't really mean much in the grand scheme of things, but most missionaries I know are married within 2 years of returning home. Easily. In fact, I can think of two that aren't married out of the 50+ that I've gotten to know. 

For clarification so you can understand better.

Some do get married young.  I think one can get married when they get married. 

I have a problem when someone starts painting others as parasites when including phrases that describe people in the church.  I have two kids that were married at 20.  I had another kid that didn't get married till they were older.  I have a son that still isn't married and is his 30s.  Now I have someone telling me that some of my kids are parasites?

My kids pay their tithing, go to the temple, and are active in church, but because they fit into society (for the most part), and do not try to isolate or feel they are exclusive or exclude others...they are parasites?

My family are members...and we are part of a church of members that are a lot like us.  I am not alone, there are a TON of members in the church that do not fit this specific mold of feeling they need to marry young to be a faithful member, that we have to be exclusive or that we have to feel as committed to the church as some would think we have to be.

I have comments by General Authorities to back up everything stated in that little diddy, (and there's even the story where young men who weren't married by a certain age were considered a menace to society), but something from a website painting such a broad brush and calling what I perceive relates to most of the young people in the church today as Parasites?

I can actually understand the sentiment that we feel that we have higher standards or other such things.  I've probably said similar things myself, though I try to be more understanding of people.  However, when it is obvious peacock preening and it is tearing down their fellow members in such a blatant way, I'll point it out.

I understand their point, but they take it to the point of absurdity.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

For clarification so you can understand better.

Some do get married young.  I think one can get married when they get married. 

I have a problem when someone starts painting others as parasites when including phrases that describe people in the church.  I have two kids that were married at 20.  I had another kid that didn't get married till they were older.  I have a son that still isn't married and is his 30s.  Now I have someone telling me that some of my kids are parasites?

My kids pay their tithing, go to the temple, and are active in church, but because they fit into society (for the most part), and do not try to isolate or feel they are exclusive or exclude others...they are parasites?

My family are members...and we are part of a church of members that are a lot like us.  I am not alone, there are a TON of members in the church that do not fit this specific mold of feeling they need to marry young to be a faithful member, that we have to be exclusive or that we have to feel as committed to the church as some would think we have to be.

I have comments by General Authorities to back up everything stated in that little diddy, (and there's even the story where young men who weren't married by a certain age were considered a menace to society), but something from a website painting such a broad brush and calling what I perceive relates to most of the young people in the church today as Parasites?

I can actually understand the sentiment that we feel that we have higher standards or other such things.  I've probably said similar things myself, though I try to be more understanding of people.  However, when it is obvious peacock preening and it is tearing down their fellow members in such a blatant way, I'll point it out.

I understand their point, but they take it to the point of absurdity.

@JohnsonJones, we've accomplished the impossible. I actually read an entire post of yours in less time than it takes to drive from Boston to Seattle. 

(Seriously, you know I'm playfully teasing you.)

 

[JohnsonJones]

4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

So... anecdotal from my neck of the woods.  One of the people in our ward is getting married next month.  She's 24 years old.  It's joked about that WHEW!  She finally got married!  Especially by her parents.  Hah hah.  But yeah, in our ward, that's oooold to get married - male or female.  Her younger sister is 19 and she's engaged to be married - she set her wedding date to next year because she says - this year is my sister's year.

My husband was 21 when we got married.

My son is 17 and if he wasn't planning on going on a mission he'd be married soon after graduating high school.  If his girlfriend waits for his mission, they'd be married not too long after he gets home.  I'm fairly certain of it.  His girlfriend is currently going to BYU-I.  Her roommate is not going on a mission because she's taking "Wife Studies" at BYU-I.  Hah hah.

Well, for some who have heard some of the talks that discuss getting married young, 24 IS OLD in regards to that consideration. 

Just a little over 10 years ago, the estimated average age for marriage of LDS young adults was around 23, with Girls around 20-21 and young men at little older.  At the time, the average age in the US was, I believe, 23 for women and 25 for men, and then later 25 for young women and 27 for young men.  It's grown in these groups to be about 2 years older than that now.

However, the expectation used to be that Women would be between the ages of 18-21 when they got married (21 was stretching it) and young men would be between the ages of 21 -22.

This was a CULTURAL thing.  The diddy focuses on cultural aspects of Mormonism (and yes, some of these things have been directly mentioned by General Authorities, but they are not doctrine, more of a cultural item and at times advice from some of them).  It is interesting on the items they focus on...and even more on the items they did NOT focus on.

If they want to focus on cultural things stated in Conference or by General Authorities that people just don't do and excludes others...top of the list has almost always been to not drink caffeinated beverages or take ANYTHING that could be addictive into one's body.  Another top item is to NOT watch R-rated movies.  These items are blatantly ignored by Mormons as well.

Why pick and choose when trying to say what makes someone better than someone else...or Perhaps the author ignores those items above because that's their personal things they ignore while they point out the problems they have with other members.

I'm not saying that we need to follow all the cultural milestones put out in the church.  I actually feel the opposite.  I am merely pointing out how wrong the diddy is in its ideas and it's attitude in it.  That diddy is someone trying to make themselves appear better than a LOT of other members of the church.

I probably have also done so in the past and other times as well, but hopefully I haven't done it so blatantly.  I would hope instead to be more WELCOMING, to recognize that we are all different people, that we all have different difficulties.  Instead of making broad general condemnations of our brothers and sisters in the Lord and the gospel, try to find uplifting and welcoming things that show our love for them and find commonalities between us so that we can bring them up rather than tear them down.

I have a niece that is very stressed over such a thing (marriage) simply because she is currently in her mid 20s and single (no prospects that I know of).  I had a kid that stressed about it because their younger sibling got married at 20 and they were approaching their mid 20s (kid eventually got married and has a great spouse today).  Telling them they are bad/wrong is not something I think helps them or builds them up in the gospel.

Instead, perhaps we should have a diddy that says...

Quote

They like our strong family culture,
and how we feel families are forever,
they want to have a man of high and holy stature,
and a wife full of love and hope, and is smart and clever.

This is something they hope is true
even when they fall or fail
Even when problems accrue
They hope a better day to tell

They like our healthy way, 
but sometimes eat some meat
sometimes they don't exercise that day
and keeping all those health codes can be quite a feat

They like our functioning community but
sometimes we are so exclusive and such,
instead of kicking others to the curb
we find it in our hearts to love them much

The world has many people who are striving to find sooth

We are the church, we have the gospel, we can give them the truth.