Eroding Friendships


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My D&D group has always been made up of a variety of different people with different beliefs. We've had Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Independents. We've had Protestants, Catholics, Atheists, Mormons, Quakers. We've had gay, straight, bi. We've had Caucasian, latino, black. You name the demographic and chances are we've had someone play in our group at some point that represents it. 

This group has run almost continuously since 2000. That's right, nearly 20 years. I've DMmed for longer than that, but this club, this campaign world, has endured for that long. If my D&D campaign club was a living person, they'd be old enough to vote. In all that time, those differences between people has never once caused any significant drama. 

And in August of 2018, That changed.

It began as a normal D&D game. The only thing that was out of the ordinary was that a new player (but very old friend) was joining us. We will call him Tony.  

Well, we were in the pre-game social phase, when the frozen pizzas are in the oven and people who haven't seen each other in a while have a chance to socialize a bit, catch up, etc. before the actual game session begins. At one point, a more or less tense exchange got going, from our more leftist members on how Christians are so very privileged in this country. This came from a friend we'll call Penny. When I asked her for an example of this supposed Christian privilege, the best example she could come up with was that Christians get 2 holidays per year where they get the day off.

Yeah, that was really her argument. Apparently Easter and Christmas are proof positive that Christians are the privileged class. Well I don't know about you, but I've never gotten a day off for Easter since it falls on a Sunday anyway (I understand some people do, but that's not a very powerful argument.) And Christmas is as much a secular holiday as any other, oh and many pagan systems celebrate it too as Yule. 

So I made this point to Penny, who started becoming agitated. She'd already snapped at my son for having the nerve to say "punching up" isn't justified. ("Punching up" is the idea that a less socially advantaged group is free to be critical or mocking toward a more socially advanced group and that's fair game, but "punching down" is bad. This is a philosophy most often used by leftists to get away with their own version of discrimination and bigotry.) 

At about this time I left the room to go get the pizzas out of the oven, and took my son with me to help. While we were gone, something happened. 

When we came back with the pizzas, Tony and Penny were involved in a very heated exchange over the current social problems in Europe arising from the sudden influx of Syrian refugees. In a nutshell, Tony was talking about how these social problems needed to be addressed and remedied, and Penny was calling him a racist for saying these social problems were a result of these refugees.

Now, I want to point out here two things. One, Tony is no racist. I've known the man for 30 years now and I can tell you with full honesty and confidence that there's no racism in him. Two, Tony is very direct in his way of speaking. He isn't rude or undiplomatic, he just doesn't sugar coat things. Penny, by contrast, lives in the leftist, SJW bubble that just doesn't get any other point of view. Her kneejerk reaction to Tony's comments was to immediately go to the racist card. 

Things were getting very heated, very fast, and before I could referee them back to their corners, Penny decided she would no longer sit and listen to Tony's "racism" and packed her stuff to leave. Tony, who is also quite a reasonable fellow, started trying to calm her down. He was apologetic (not that he owed her an apology, in my opinion), gentle, and managed to get her to stop at the door. The bickering continued at that point, with Tony sitting at the table and Penny by the door. It was like watching that video of Jordan Peterson debating Cathy Newman... where Peterson would make a point, then Newman would respond with "So you're saying that..." and then proceed to utterly misrepresent and twist the argument. This was just like that.

After a minute of this, Steve got involved, telling his wife to either go or stay, but that her behavior was embarrassing him in front of his friends. Shortly after this, she calmed enough to rejoin us at the table, and was perfectly pleasant for the rest of the session. (Don't let that fool you. She was putting on an act. As far as she's concerned, Tony is a vicious racist, period, an will not hear any defense of him. I tried.)

Now, after that session, I realized I had a very serious problem. Penny can be a very nice person, but her contempt for Christianity and conservatism in general has always been hidden, but she'd occasionally let it peek out. The Christians and conservatives in our group are well aware of this, but we've always just let it slide to avoid exactly the sort of meltdown that happened on this fateful evening. The problem is that Penny isn't the only one in our group who thinks that way, and those who see things from her point of view are a tight knit group of friends who also hang out when not in my D&D campaign.

That meant this fire was gonna spread. 

At the time, I was running two concurrent D&D groups, each of which was about half and half between left and right wing thinkers. My fear was that this incident was going to spill over into the other group. This was going to come up again for sure, especially because I really enjoyed having Tony in my group. He and I hadn't played D&D in many years. Funny thing is, he isn't even a conservative. He's very centrist.

So I followed up with an E-mail conversation with Penny. I was hoping she'd at least acknowledge that she'd gone too far. 

Nope. She sees herself as the victim. She doesn't want me to try and defend my friend, she doesn't want to discuss anything in detail, and she doesn't want to come to D&D games anymore if it means she has to triple check her words before speaking. (Which I can't believe she said unironically. This whole mess happened because someone else didn't triple check is words in front of HER.) That E-mail chain ended amicably between her and me, but I don't feel much better.

So I scrambled the reactor, as it were, to avoid a meltdown. I discontinued both of my D&D games until I could come up with a way to deal with all of this.

Ultimately, I resumed D&D in the beginning of January and invited only those who could play nice with each other in the sandbox.  You see, the story I just told isn't the only example of friction between the two sides.  It was just the straw that finally broke the proverbial camel's back.  

I *HATE* the idea that politics has infected my gaming club like this. I always felt that even though we may disagree on things, we all saw each other as people who all wanted the best for everyone in our country, just didn't see eye to eye on how to achieve it. What I've learned is that is NOT how some folks in the group think. At best, people like Penny see us as deluded people who do evil in the name of our God and need to be defeated. Well, I guess I should be grateful that she doesn't think we're evil.

Or maybe I just don't care anymore.

Has it really come to this?

So Penny and her husband, another friend of mine, did come over and hang out with my wife and me one time since then, but I haven't heard from them since.  Another VERY left wing friend who was in the group and I chat every single day through Skype, but our conversations never stray into anything deep or interesting anymore.  I occasionally put out a feeler and he doesn't respond until the subject can change to gaming, or TV shows or something else like that.  A good Star Wars discussion always brings him out, but with the latest Star Wars films becoming politicized, my list of topics I can discuss with him is shrinking.

Is it time to start trimming branches away?  Is it time to let it go?  I never wanted to lose friends over politics, but the open contempt that my religion and my beliefs are shown by people who claim friendship has made it impossible to think about them without that accompanying resentment.  Christians are evil.  Conservatives are Nazis, but do not *dare* question them on anything they believe.  

I loved the idea of having friends with very, very different views... but in the current climate, is that even possible anymore?

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Penny gets to believe whatever she wants about Christians, and she gets to believe someone is racist whether they are or not. If she chooses to not be around folks, whatever.  If she can't behave civilly around folks in social situations, then it's time to take action.

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Satan stirs up the hearts of men to anger, to contend one with another.  Boy is he having a lot of success with that.  We have people being confronted with angry mobs when they go out to eat just because of their political/religious beliefs.  I've heard it said that in the last days faithful members would be persecuted worse than the early saints.  If that is true it won't be by people of other religions who object to the idea of living prophets etc. it will be by the anti-religious SJW types who can't stand the existence of anybody who objects to them (and especially those who can articulate sound arguments against their views).  So, sorry to say, but at some point you are going to lose friends over these trends.  You may even lose a job or be rejected from being hired or promoted simply for what your believe.  Just look what happened when DC Comics hired Orson Scott Card.

As for this particular situation, you are the DM, it is your game.  You have every right to lay out boundaries on how your players behave.  I would suggest you write out those boundaries, send them to all your players and let them know that they are perfectly welcome to keep coming so long as they conduct themselves as you define as appropriate.  Then Penny and everyone else can decide for themselves if they will keep coming or not rather you being the one to decide.  Hopefully they all agree and abide by that, but if they don't that is their choice to leave.  One toxic player ruins it for everyone.  If they say they will respect your boundaries but keep violating them warn them they will not be allowed to keep coming unless they shape up.  Say it all nicer than that though. :)

BTW, I'm a DM myself.  I run two campaigns and both of them are with family and ward members, although we have a non-member friend of one of the players who will be joining us next session.  If somebody is not at least vouched for by somebody I know I'm very reluctant to add them as a new player.

Edited by Latter-Day Marriage
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Guest MormonGator
2 hours ago, unixknight said:

is that even possible anymore?

I'm very blessed. Out of my two best friends, one is a Bernie Sanders supporting liberal, and the other is a right wing Catholic. I disagree with both men on a bunch of issues, but I've known them for over twenty years. In fact, the right winger is coming down to visit me later in the week and I can't wait! The left wing guy is coming down in the summer after his kid goes to college. I can't wait for that either! 

So yes, it's possible.

Edited by MormonGator
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16 hours ago, Latter-Day Marriage said:

As for this particular situation, you are the DM, it is your game.  You have every right to lay out boundaries on how your players behave.  I would suggest you write out those boundaries, send them to all your players and let them know that they are perfectly welcome to keep coming so long as they conduct themselves as you define as appropriate.  Then Penny and everyone else can decide for themselves if they will keep coming or not rather you being the one to decide.  Hopefully they all agree and abide by that, but if they don't that is their choice to leave.  One toxic player ruins it for everyone.  If they say they will respect your boundaries but keep violating them warn them they will not be allowed to keep coming unless they shape up.  Say it all nicer than that though. :)

I've been a DM for 30 years and this is the first time I've ever had to do this.  What I essentially have done was to reorganize the groups in such a way that the people who get along with each other are together.  Unfortunately, that means splitting them up almost entirely along  political lines.  The "conservative" group actually isn't all conservative, just the mix of people who can act like adults.  The "leftist" group has yet to reconstitute, and I may not bother.  Penny has already indicated that she won't come if it means having to "triple check whatever she says" which she said unironically.  (Remember, she melted down because of what someone else said.)  I spoke one-on-one with one of these guys, and told him that we're well aware of hos much contempt he and the others have for our beliefs and religion.  To his credit, he didn't bother denying it.  That's now an elephant in the room that makes me unwilling to resume with them.

16 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I'm very blessed. Out of my two best friends, one is a Bernie Sanders supporting liberal, and the other is a right wing Catholic. I disagree with both men on a bunch of issues, but I've known them for over twenty years. In fact, the right winger is coming down to visit me later in the week and I can't wait! The left wing guy is coming down in the summer after his kid goes to college. I can't wait for that either! 

So yes, it's possible.

I know it's possible... but it really takes the right people.  I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is, where's the problem?  Do I have the wrong people, or is it me?

I always dreaded the day politics would start costing me friends.  I don't use Facebook or Twitter, and within the discussion forums on our club website I agreed a couple years ago to discourage political  threads at the request of - you guessed it - the left-leaning thinkers in our group.  When they'd make little snide comments about conservatism or Christianity, the rest of us bit our tongues to let it slide to keep the peace.  It's been an uncomfortable situation for a long time.

I was always afraid that it would be politics that caused one or more of these friends to distance themselves, and yet here I am, feeling like maybe I'm the one who's doing the distancing… because I am, and  yet... it isn't like they've been blowing me up with texts or E-mails about when the D&D games will resume.

They're aware that I restarted with the chill people, and are probably accusing me of creating a bubble to keep them out of.  I don't think they're right about that... and yet I can't help feeling guilty.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

I'm confused, Penny is your friend?  It seems that she is because she's part of your D&D group, but the way you talk about her leaves me with questions. I  wouldn't call someone who talked about me the way you talk about her my friend.  You ask if you should trim the branches, but I think you already did.  

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28 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I'm confused, Penny is your friend?  It seems that she is because she's part of your D&D group, but the way you talk about her leaves me with questions. I  wouldn't call someone who talked about me the way you talk about her my friend.  You ask if you should trim the branches, but I think you already did.  

Penny first joined us in D&D back in 2002 or 2003.  She was a young high schooler and I quickly began to regard her as a niece.   In those days, my group was about half adults and half kids, and we even played in the church building with our Bishop's permission.  She has been described as one of the nicest people you could ever meet, and I really believed that until last August.  Now, I'm forced to wonder.  How long has she been so contemptuous of my views and beliefs?  How long has she been wearing the mask?  

For me to admit that she isn't really a friend anymore feels too much like "unfriending" someone over politics...  And yet, I've known for years that she was a lefty, and I didn't care.  Her behavior in August is what broke it, and yet I still feel like I could have done something differently.

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

In your case, the branches trim themselves. The problem really is self-solving. Penny and other leftists like her will brook no opposition to their beliefs, prejudices, and bigotry. So be it.

The more I think over the last few years,  the more I realize how we have been gradually censored by the less tolerant members of the group.  The same people who complained about political discussions on the message board also tend to be the ones who rarely used it anyway... as if they couldn't stand that such discussions were taking place anywhere.  They could criticize Christianity or secular conservative stances with impunity but reacted with anger at any response.  Some of the leftists had already "unfriended" the conservatives on the various social media platforms they used, and I'd already had to split the group in half early last year to separate one belligerent from the target.

I've quietly deactivated the accounts of those in my group who rarely used our website, as a test.  So far, nobody seems to have noticed.  

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I am sorry you are going through this, it's really frustrating. But I don't think you have a reason to feel guilty @unixknight. At the end of the day, you did not create the problem. You've given them chance after chance to fix this situation and provided Penny and others with plenty of opportunities to act like adults again and rejoin the group. They've shown they care more about being "right" than being friends. It's an unfortunate situation, and I don't blame you in the slightest for feeling bad about it, but you have no need to feel guilty.  Friendship is all about mutual respect and people with different beliefs can be friends only if they can admit that the other side has a right to exist. My group is a mix of Latter-day Saints and Baptists. Other than ribbing each other occasionally about which one of us is right about religion, we all have a great time together because we respect each other too much to level attacks at one another. 

Edited by Midwest LDS
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2 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Other than ribbing each other occasionally about which one of us is right about religion, we all have a great time together because we resepct each other too much to level attacks at one another. 

That's exactly how it is between Tony and me.  He and I have been friends for 30 years, and we met over D&D.  He's not conservative, but he's incredibly reasonable and laid back, and even though he has no use for religion, he has never been snarky toward me or anyone else for being believers.

At one point Penny offered to return to D&D if I told Tony he couldn't play.  It took all my self discipline not to openly laugh in her face.

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3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

That's exactly how it is between Tony and me.  He and I have been friends for 30 years, and we met over D&D.  He's not conservative, but he's incredibly reasonable and laid back, and even though he has no use for religion, he has never been snarky toward me or anyone else for being believers.

At one point Penny offered to return to D&D if I told Tony he couldn't play.  It took all my self discipline not to openly laugh in her face.

That's so ridiculous. I really hate when someone can't admit that they contributed (or in this case caused) a situation and apologize for it. You have my sympathies for having to deal with this.

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Guest MormonGator
2 hours ago, unixknight said:

 

I know it's possible... but it really takes the right people.  I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is, where's the problem?  Do I have the wrong people, or is it me?

First off in this case, I agree with @Midwest LDS. It's ridiculous and you have my sympathies. Penny is the problem, not you. 

Now, if the situation keeps repeating itself, then you might be the problem. You know that girl who has been divorced five times and blames everyone but herself? She fails to comprehend that the only constant of your dissatisfying, drama filled relationships is yourself. If you keep having to end friendships over politics /religious differences then eventually you do deserve some of the blame. Again though, I don't think that's the case here. 

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Guest MormonGator

This might offend people, but it's not my intention. 

Mature people don't allow political differences to break up a bigger goal or unity. For example, if I'm the bishop or EQ president, I'm not going to let the LDS liberals and LDS conservatives get into arguments that will split the Elders Quorum into factions. Same with a sports team. If the pitcher is a right wing republican (think Curt Schilling) and the catcher is someone who knelt for the national anthem, the other guys on the team aren't going to allow their feud to stop them from accomplishing a goal. If your goal is to play D&D in peace, then those who are disrupting the goal need to be talked to. 

I  know that doesn't answer the friendship question, but it's a "big picture" kind of thing that I thought of . 

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This problem really isn't about politics at all, rather it's a people-not-getting-along problem.  Such is human nature, and is not remotely your fault.  So I see two avenue of approaching this:

1) Fight-pickers aren't invited.  This is just a basic human thing.  If Penny wants to pick fights, she's not invited.  Just like you won't invite a person who wants to pick fights over D&D rules.  

2) If discussing politics is going to be an issue for the larger group (not just Penny the fight-picker) then institute house rule "we're not here for politics, we're here to have a fun time and play D&D".  

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Guest Mores

Let's put it this way.  I just heard a report on CNN where a commentator said that Mueller's report exonerating Trump saved this country from a second civil war.

Well... that fight ain't over yet.

Jay Leno was actually fairly centrist with slight libertarian leanings.  But both sides saw him as "attacking" their side with his humor.  Well, one day he was talking with a conservative friend about some riot or other.  He asked his friend,"When did we become a nation of people who has to hate someone because they're on the other side of the political aisle?

Around the time of Bill Clinton's trial.  It got worse during W.'s tenure.  Still worse during Obama.  Now, with Trump, we're talking civil war.

No. it isn't over yet.

While a person can overcome this.  People cannot.  And we won't.  I fear it is inevitable.

Edited by Mores
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Guest MormonGator
11 minutes ago, Mores said:

Let's put it this way.  I just heard a report on CNN where a commentator said that Mueller's report exonerating Trump saved this country from a second civil war.

Well... that fight ain't over yet.

Jay Leno was actually fairly centrist with slight libertarian leanings.  But both sides saw him as "attacking" their side with his humor.  Well, one day he was talking with a conservative friend about some riot or other.  He asked his friend,"When did we become a nation of people who has to hate someone because they're on the other side of the political aisle?

Around the time of Bill Clinton's trial.  It got worse during W.'s tenure.  Still worse during Obama.  Now, with Trump, we're talking civil war.

No. it isn't over yet.

While a person can overcome this.  People cannot.  And we won't.  I fear it is inevitable.

I know people think he (Leno) is/was sort of a hack, but his early stand up (I'm talking way back, 70's and early 80's) is hilariously funny. Pretty clean too. 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Would it be possible to have a "no politics/no religion" policy?  If people cant respect that, they've chosen to separate themselves. I agree with @Jane_Doe that it's a people problem, not politics.  

I have a friend who left the church and is now atheist. We have a have a no religious discussions agreement. I know she thinks my beliefs are fantasy, basically, but I think she's prideful. We focus on what we do have in common. 

I'm fairly Liberal and some might say an SJW. I've learned that in order to get along at church and here on the forum, I keep my opinions to myself. I know what Conservatives think about me and well you can guess what I think about that. But I try to focus on what we have in common. 

If Penny doesn't agree to that its he choice. She might not be in a place for that now....it doesn't mean she won't change her mind in the future, be patient with her, you said she is younger than you so that maybe part of it.  You can't change her, but you can be tolerant of her weakness as we all hope others will be with ours.

By the way, I play D&D too. It's what my family does for family night.  My 13 yr old is currently DMing and that is fun.  I'm playing a barbarian for the first time with a race my 13 yr old developed. Good times!  My point is don't let your group die, push forward with those who can put differences aside and focus on the game.

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Guest Mores
49 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I know people think he (Leno) is/was sort of a hack, but his early stand up (I'm talking way back, 70's and early 80's) is hilariously funny. Pretty clean too. 

I'm going to believe that by "hack" you don't believe his Tonight Show material was very funny.  Opinions vary.  Mine was that he made me giggle, but rarely made me roll on the floor -- if that gives an indication.

I still find his observation insightful because he made it his business to read just enough about politics and pop culture to be able to create humor that poked fun at both sides equally.  And his humor was well received (if we're to look at his ratings).  If that is a correct assessment, then he seemed to have his pulse on the mood of the country's political mindset.

I honestly believe that he retired because he was really not allowed to poke fun at Obama.  Dennis Miller even accused him of having a bromance with Obama because he held back quite a bit.  That was not his choice.  It was pressure from above.  He realized that he was basically not allowed to be funny anymore.

Edited by Mores
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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, Mores said:

I'm going to believe that by "hack" you don't believe his Tonight Show material was very funny.  Opinions vary.  Mine was that he made me giggle, but rarely made me roll on the floor -- if that gives an indication.

 

Oh of course, what makes someone laugh isn't objectively black or white. What I find funny probably isn't what you would. I think Mitch Hedberg is hilariously funny but just because I do doesn't mean I think everyone should. 

 

9 minutes ago, Mores said:

I honestly believe that he retired because he was really not allowed to poke fun at Obama.  Dennis Miller even accused him of having a bromance with Obama because he held back quite a bit.  That was not his choice.  It was pressure from above.  He realized that he was basically not allowed to be funny anymore.

I love Dennis Miller, always have regardless of his political leanings. But I think Leno retired because he was over 70 and was forced out. Like or not, only Johnny Carson could host the Tonight Show at that age. Fallon can be funny but I'm not hip and cool enough to like Conan. 

 

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Guest Mores
21 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Oh of course, what makes someone laugh isn't objectively black or white. What I find funny probably isn't what you would. I think Mitch Hedberg is hilariously funny but just because I do doesn't mean I think everyone should. 

I love Dennis Miller, always have regardless of his political leanings. But I think Leno retired because he was over 70 and was forced out. Like or not, only Johnny Carson could host the Tonight Show at that age. Fallon can be funny but I'm not hip and cool enough to like Conan. 

You make a good point about his age.  But he's been out doing other things from time to time.  He still looks like he could run a show today.  It could be argued that perhaps it would be too difficult for him to do every night.

Still, other statements he's made since his retirement was that he felt like he was not allowed his brand of humor anymore.

Edited by Mores
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Guest MormonGator

It's not a matter of his physical stamina.  As you get older your humor becomes more set to your generation.  The Tonight Show is geared towards younger people whose sense of humor doesn't match that of Jay Leno. You need broader appeal to host that show, hence why Conan couldn't do it. 

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10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's not a matter of his physical stamina.  As you get older your humor becomes more set to your generation.  The Tonight Show is geared towards younger people whose sense of humor doesn't match that of Jay Leno. You need broader appeal to host that show, hence why Conan couldn't do it. 

This is certainly true to some extent, but not as true as we sometimes think. I have watched Steve Allen, Jack Paar, and Laugh-in and still laughed, even though the comedians predate me and the show is from my early childhood. I defy anyone to watch a good Marx Brothers comedy like Duck Soup (or, equivalently, a classic Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes cartoon like Rabbit of Seville) and not laugh.

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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is certainly true to some extent, but not as true as we sometimes think. I have watched Steve Allen, Jack Paar, and Laugh-in and still laughed, even though the comedians predate me and the show is from my early childhood. I defy anyone to watch a good Marx Brothers comedy like Duck Soup (or, equivalently, a classic Bugs Bunny Looney Tunes cartoon like Rabbit of Seville) and not laugh.

I agree more or less. Steve Allen and Jack Paar both hosted the Tonight Show, and the clips I've seen of them were funny. And yes, Duck Soup is hilarious. But you'd need a comedic mind/talent/insight that Jay Leno doesn't have. To compare Leno to the Marx brothers or Steve Allen/Jack Paar is questionable. 

Edited by MormonGator
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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I agree more or less. Steve Allen and Jack Paar both hosted the Tonight Show, and the clips I've seen of them were funny. And yes, Duck Soup is hilarious. But you'd need a comedic mind/talent/insight that Jay Leno doesn't have. To compare Leno to the Marx brothers or Steve Allen/Jack Paar is questionable. 

Maybe, but then that's a problem with the entertainer, and not necessarily with cross-generational differences in what's considered funny.

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, Vort said:

Maybe, but then that's a problem with the entertainer, and not necessarily with cross-generational differences in what's considered funny.

I guess it doesn't matter. The producers/management of the Tonight Show didn't think a 70 year old man should host. So they hired a 40 something year old man to host instead. 

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