without_you

Is getting pregnant from a sperm donor not allowed in the church?

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Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

Wow, I didn’t realize the Church’s position was that stringent vis a vis single women who pursue in vitro.

Clearly you don't spend enough time reading handbook 2. ;)

IMO, everything we have indicates with perfect clarity that God wants children to only be born to a father and mother who are sealed for time and all eternity.  Anything less than that varies from tragic to tolerable to intolerable to willful rejection of God's commands.  IMO, this falls into the latter category.

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"Artificial insemination of single sisters is not approved. Single sisters who deliberately refuse to follow the counsel of Church leaders in this matter are subject to Church discipline."

Wow! There it is. When in doubt, check Handbook 2. Thanks, @zil.

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11 hours ago, without_you said:

What should I say to her when she says: "Guys don't like her and no one wants to marry her"

You should say "Great; now that we've identified this important underlying assumption, why don't guys like you and what can be done about that?"

I mean, come on, somebody knocked up Honey Boo Boo's mom the old fashioned way multiple times.  Even Hillary Clinton found a husband.

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@without_you I sympathize with your friend. The choice for women in the church can be stark. There ratio of women to men is something like 3:2 in their twenties. 

But then there is the situation of the child. Mom super busy career and no dad. That’s a tough situation as well.

In the part of the world where I live, church programs are limping along. We don’t really run programs like ministering. It would be closer to the truth to say that we pretend to run programs. As most members are nonUSA residents, my guess is that many if not most of the church strives to provide services but does not function as per the Utah model. My guess is that for many if not most church locations, life is a struggle. My local temple operates by the Grace of God. Only Faith, at extreme levels, allows my temple to operate.

When I returned to church after many years of inactivity, I suggested to my bishop that I adopt a child. The bishop, a commmander in the Canadian police looked as though he would have a heart attack. 

Your friend’s struggle is like trying to buy a house in Manhattan. Too much demand. Too little supply. 

Operating your life from the perspective of ‘I have this need. I want to fill it’ is not congruent with the needs of the church. 

If the single women of child bearing age decided to have children as single moms, what would happen to the church? 

Edited by Sunday21

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17 hours ago, without_you said:

What should I say to her? She keeps bring up that she won't ever get married..She thinks God has cursed her appearance....I'm really trying to help her

While it is less common, there really are plenty of great guys out there who will marry someone who is physically less attractive as long as they are spiritually & emotionally attractive.

The true problem is that she has let her physical appearance overshadow the spiritual and emotional side of her.  Perhaps she was a victim of abuse or bullying?  That is probably the bigger factor in her current state.

Another thing to state is that it has been EXTREMELY rare for me to find anyone who is actually ugly.  Most of the time it is about dress, grooming, posture, and overall presentation.  Honestly, I see celebrities and models whom I consider less attractive, but their presentation is such that many people consider them attractive anyway.  And I say this about males and females.

Quote

Nothing makes a woman more beautiful than the belief that she is beautiful.

 -- Sophia Loren

Have her read some of these:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/290913.Sophia_Loren

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17 hours ago, scottyg said:

If she eventually got married, and wanted a sealing, she would need to seek permission from the actual father of the child...it would get very messy, complicated, and difficult.

It wouldn't be that difficult.  The Church requires "reasonable efforts" be made to contact biological parents for sealing to a step parent. In the case of an anonymous sperm donor, the bar of "reasonable effort" is pretty low, since the donor presumably intended not to be contacted.  Non-anonymous sperm donors tend to be known by the recipient on a pretty personal level.  It isn't unreasonable to think they'd still be in contact.

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I tend to be pretty live-and-let-live.  I really don't give a flip what church policies dictate on this situation.  What gives me pause is that this woman believes she's cursed and that the best way to make her life better is single parenthood. That speaks to an enormous disconnect from reality.  She needs therapy.

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Seriously; what's so unattractive about her that she can't find any prospects at all?  This really sounds like a smokescreen for her not wanting to be in a relationship, but wanting a baby anyway.

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12 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I really don't give a flip what church policies dictate on this situation.

As long as membership and good standing in the kingdom of God is not of concern, this attitude is understandable.

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26 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Seriously; what's so unattractive about her that she can't find any prospects at all?  This really sounds like a smokescreen for her not wanting to be in a relationship, but wanting a baby anyway.

Now is the perfect time to remind everybody....

 

I have lots of nephews...

 

 

 

.... and they need visas.  ;)

 

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@without_you Since you've already gotten the Church's stance, I'll address some of the other points you brought up. 

~ As long as she believes she'll never get married/guys don't like her/etc - she'll be right. She needs to look up some positive affirmations to help change her thinking.

~ She needs to trust the Lord's timing. 

~ I know someone who didn't get married till she was 36/38 and started the adoption process thinking that was her best option. She got pregnant and she and hubby are raising 2 girls that are 10 months apart.

~ Have her check her library for "The Wisdom of Your Face" by Jean Haner. (Hint: jowels are known as money bags, thick eyebrows = confidence). Also have her look into Dressing Your Truth (Carol Tuttle - lots of resources for clothes, makeup, hair, accessories, etc). Even if it's just a confidence-booster, that may be just what she needs.

It's nice of you to want to help her and I hope the above will.

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 3:35 PM, without_you said:

I don't know. Maybe I can convince her to take some time off 

18 years?

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 7:19 AM, Sunday21 said:

If the single women of child bearing age decided to have children as single moms, what would happen to the church? 

It would start looking hypocritical in its doctrines on the family.

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 10:08 PM, NightSG said:

Seriously; what's so unattractive about her that she can't find any prospects at all?  This really sounds like a smokescreen for her not wanting to be in a relationship, but wanting a baby anyway.

Or at least, an excuse to give up.

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1 hour ago, unixknight said:

18 years?

It would start looking hypocritical in its doctrines on the family.

Or at least, an excuse to give up.

I once rented an apartment in Saskatoon Saskatchewan. At the time, a large industry had just closed. Suddenly the market was flooded with high grade rental properties. I rented a two bathroom, two bedroom apartment with cedar walls and finishes. It smelt fantastic. It had a free gym. Free parking and I forget what else. I paid very little. I thought that I was a real estate genius.

Then I moved to another city and the rental market experience changed dramatically. 

If you are a male member of the church, be grateful. You live in a different world.

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13 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I once rented an apartment in Saskatoon Saskatchewan. At the time, a large industry had just closed. Suddenly the market was flooded with high grade rental properties. I rented a two bathroom, two bedroom apartment with cedar walls and finishes. It smelt fantastic. It had a free gym. Free parking and I forget what else. I paid very little. I thought that I was a real estate genius.

Then I moved to another city and the rental market experience changed dramatically. 

If you are a male member of the church, be grateful. You live in a different world.

I don't think I understand what you mean?

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

I once rented an apartment in Saskatoon Saskatchewan. At the time, a large industry had just closed. Suddenly the market was flooded with high grade rental properties. I rented a two bathroom, two bedroom apartment with cedar walls and finishes. It smelt fantastic. It had a free gym. Free parking and I forget what else. I paid very little. I thought that I was a real estate genius.

Then I moved to another city and the rental market experience changed dramatically. 

If you are a male member of the church, be grateful. You live in a different world.

Are you saying that unmarried adult (not young adult, but post-30s) men in the Church inhabit a buyer's market and have all the fun, while the women are stuck in a high rent/low value vicious cycle? Because I've heard that before, many times, but I have reason to doubt it.

I have had some close friends (men) in that very situation, and their view of things is significantly different from the picture you paint. Just for one example among dozens: One close acquaintance, about my age and a very good-looking guy (at least he was when he was younger), said that every LDS woman he ever dated past the age of 30 tried to get him into bed. Every one, without exception. Think about that. Every. Last. LDS. Woman. Not even the non-member women he dated were as aggressively seductive as the nominally LDS women. And he dated A Lot Of LDS Women, not just six or eight, a significant minority of whom were unmarried mothers of small children.

He said his refusal to get naked with them frustrated them. Sometimes they asked him if he was homosexual; I mean, why else wouldn't he jump at the sweet, sweet goods they were offering? In other cases, the women said how much they admired him for sticking with his principles and how they wish they could marry someone like him. They told him that what they really wanted was for a man to take care of them and treat them well so they could leave the work world and stay at home with their babies (the ones they already had, but also, they quickly assured him, the ones they would produce with him). 

This was actually one of his huge pet peeves. He had a small sum of money saved, not a lot but a few thousand. In most cases, the women he dated were not even cash-positive, but deeply in debt. Like to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars (or more), mostly in consumer debt like credit cards. In his view, these women were looking to prostitute themselves into marriage so that someone would pay off their financial obligations. They didn't want a best friend and confidant, or even a mature, stable mate. They wanted a sugar daddy, preferably young and good-looking, but that part was negotiable. The hypocrisy was staggering.

The whole thing soured him on the Church, and eventually on the law of chastity, both of which he finally abandoned in his 40s. I think it's a tragic story that breaks my heart just recounting it.

So then, do I believe that the vast majority of post-30-year-old LDS unmarried women are gold diggers eager to bed their dates? No, I do not. Do I suspect that my friend's personal female preferences influenced him to date LDS women drawn from the pool of women who ARE like that? Yes, I strongly suspect that. But in any case, it sure puts a different face on the whole issue, doesn't it?

I think that anecdotal evidence is great for helping understand specific points of view, but not so great for helping understand large trends or the true lay of the land.

Edited by Vort

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

have had some close friends (men) in that very situation, and their view of things is significantly different from the picture you paint. Just for one example among dozens: One close acquaintance, about my age and a very good-looking guy (at least he was when he was younger), said that every LDS woman he ever dated past the age of 30 tried to get him into bed. Every one, without exception. Think about that. Every. Last. LDS. Woman. Not even the non-member women he dated were as aggressively seductive as the nominally LDS women. And he dated A Lot Of LDS Women, not just six or eight, a significant minority of whom were unmarried mothers of small childre

If you are actively trying to have premature relations with someone that you do not know very well...are you a really a member of the church? I had the same experience when I was dating...also every single man, every single, yes every single, no exceptions, even those who currently held important callings, yes every single, no exceptions, not even one but...I realized that they were not really with the gospel. Tourists. 

By the way, one of these gentleman went on to serve as a branch president. He is now a lovely person and his wife likes me. So yeah people turn around. 

Edited by Sunday21

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Are you saying that unmarried adult (not young adult, but post-30s) men in the Church inhabit a buyer's market and have all the fun, while the women are stuck in a high rent/low value vicious cycle? 

<snip>

I think that anecdotal evidence is great for helping understand specific points of view, but not so great for helping understand large trends or the true lay of the land.

@Sunday21 has a point.  It is different for men past 30.  Men don't have a "shelf life".  Women do.  Child-bearing years and the biological clock doesn't stop ticking you know... even for high-powered, rich women.  So family-minded men past their 30's tend to look to the younger set of women to maximize the family potential leaving the older women with fewer prospects.

And this is another reason why Modern Feminism is cancer.  The sexual revolution of the 60's really did a number on modern women.  All this drive for gender equality and women in STEM today just leads to more and more miserable women.  Because, to succeed in STEM and any other highly competitive field, you have to be willing to put the time to it and eschew Motherhood in your best child-bearing years.  Then you reach the height of your career, miss out on the opportunity to bear children and then what?  You get old, your husband dies (because men die on average 8 years before their wives) and realize you just missed out on what is important - somebody to care about you when you're 80 and in diapers with your teeth falling out.  

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11 hours ago, Vort said:

Are you saying that unmarried adult (not young adult, but post-30s) men in the Church inhabit a buyer's market and have all the fun, while the women are stuck in a high rent/low value vicious cycle? Because I've heard that before, many times, but I have reason to doubt it.

I have had some close friends (men) in that very situation, and their view of things is significantly different from the picture you paint. Just for one example among dozens: One close acquaintance, about my age and a very good-looking guy (at least he was when he was younger), said that every LDS woman he ever dated past the age of 30 tried to get him into bed. Every one, without exception. Think about that. Every. Last. LDS. Woman. Not even the non-member women he dated were as aggressively seductive as the nominally LDS women. And he dated A Lot Of LDS Women, not just six or eight, a significant minority of whom were unmarried mothers of small children.

He said his refusal to get naked with them frustrated them. Sometimes they asked him if he was homosexual; I mean, why else wouldn't he jump at the sweet, sweet goods they were offering? In other cases, the women said how much they admired him for sticking with his principles and how they wish they could marry someone like him. They told him that what they really wanted was for a man to take care of them and treat them well so they could leave the work world and stay at home with their babies (the ones they already had, but also, they quickly assured him, the ones they would produce with him). 

This was actually one of his huge pet peeves. He had a small sum of money saved, not a lot but a few thousand. In most cases, the women he dated were not even cash-positive, but deeply in debt. Like to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars (or more), mostly in consumer debt like credit cards. In his view, these women were looking to prostitute themselves into marriage so that someone would pay off their financial obligations. They didn't want a best friend and confidant, or even a mature, stable mate. They wanted a sugar daddy, preferably young and good-looking, but that part was negotiable. The hypocrisy was staggering.

The whole thing soured him on the Church, and eventually on the law of chastity, both of which he finally abandoned in his 40s. I think it's a tragic story that breaks my heart just recounting it.

So then, do I believe that the vast majority of post-30-year-old LDS unmarried women are gold diggers eager to bed their dates? No, I do not. Do I suspect that my friend's personal female preferences influenced him to date LDS women drawn from the pool of women who ARE like that? Yes, I strongly suspect that. But in any case, it sure puts a different face on the whole issue, doesn't it?

I think that anecdotal evidence is great for helping understand specific points of view, but not so great for helping understand large trends or the true lay of the land.

Have you heard about MGTOW? These are one of the reasons LDS men go MGTOW too.

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On 3/29/2019 at 11:15 PM, Manners Matter said:

@without_you Since you've already gotten the Church's stance, I'll address some of the other points you brought up. 

~ As long as she believes she'll never get married/guys don't like her/etc - she'll be right. She needs to look up some positive affirmations to help change her thinking.

~ She needs to trust the Lord's timing. 

~ I know someone who didn't get married till she was 36/38 and started the adoption process thinking that was her best option. She got pregnant and she and hubby are raising 2 girls that are 10 months apart.

~ Have her check her library for "The Wisdom of Your Face" by Jean Haner. (Hint: jowels are known as money bags, thick eyebrows = confidence). Also have her look into Dressing Your Truth (Carol Tuttle - lots of resources for clothes, makeup, hair, accessories, etc). Even if it's just a confidence-booster, that may be just what she needs.

It's nice of you to want to help her and I hope the above will.

Her age and fertility has a lot to do with it. She's getting older and she might reach the age of "not being able to bear children". She worries too much about this and goes to the other option....artifical insemination. She doesn't consider adoption...She wants kids on her own...her own kid from her womb. 

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1) Raising child on your own. Picture your worst day. You have flu, still have to work. Small child. 

2)  artificial insemination expensive, lots of failures. https://attainfertility.com/article/artificial-insemination-success

chances of success 10-15% per cycle. Success rates drop as you get older. 

3) Children are not pets. They do not always love you. They do not always do what you say. Teenage years can be very difficult.

God has asked us not to do this. Maybe He is right? 

All people have their quirks. Even nice people. Having two parents helps to buffer. But now you have just one parent. That one parent’s quirks can really be a problem. For a child, living with one parent...and their quirks can be a prison sentence.

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59 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

2)  artificial insemination expensive, lots of failures. https://attainfertility.com/article/artificial-insemination-success

chances of success 10-15% per cycle. Success rates drop as you get older. 

Those success rates reflect cases where either female infertility or male infertility is a factor in the decision to use artificial insemination.  Artificial insemination when using fertile ova and sperm is typically very successful (86%, according to that article)

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On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 6:43 AM, Mores said:

While it is less common, there really are plenty of great guys out there who will marry someone who is physically less attractive as long as they are spiritually & emotionally attractive.

The true problem is that she has let her physical appearance overshadow the spiritual and emotional side of her.  Perhaps she was a victim of abuse or bullying?  That is probably the bigger factor in her current state.

Another thing to state is that it has been EXTREMELY rare for me to find anyone who is actually ugly.  Most of the time it is about dress, grooming, posture, and overall presentation.  Honestly, I see celebrities and models whom I consider less attractive, but their presentation is such that many people consider them attractive anyway.  And I say this about males and females.

Have her read some of these:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/290913.Sophia_Loren

I think of one of my best friends from high school. Love that girl, plan to volunteer with her at Fan-X, but she was far, far from a looker. To give you some clues, in jr. high she had various unsightly facial moles removed. Yup, that kind of person.

And... she dated more than anyone in our circle of friends. True, we were the April Ludgate sort of bunch, but even then I think she dated a respectable amount for high school.

Oh, what a cliché it is, but it's true: She had a great personality. She was funny, outgoing, very social, involved in various groups. So, yeah, she attracted her share of guys. She married young and has a happy family. 

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