Media credibility in the age of Trump

[Guest Mores]

11 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It would take a LOT for me to ever vote for Trump.  I do not think I'm even close to voting for him now.  Most likely, I'd vote for just about anyone who ran against him.

You hate him personally so much that you'd vote for those who would kill babies after botched abortions?  Are you so easily willing to overlook murderers?

[JohnsonJones]

5 minutes ago, Mores said:

You hate him personally so much that you'd vote for those who would kill babies after botched abortions?  Are you so easily willing to overlook murderers?

We could take extremes both ways.  You'd vote for someone who wants to starve poor children and dance on top of their corpses.  Are you so willing to overlook child killers who make a mockery of their deaths?

Yeah...ridiculous statement...

You paint anyone who is running Against Bush as someone supporting your policy above?

Really?

Not even going in regards to the opposing party...some of his Fellow Republicans who dislike Bush probably would dislike you characterizing them as such...just for starters.

Next, many democrats don't support such ideas or policies...

And your statement is a poor characterization of the actual policies in the first place...

But works perfectly at trying to characterize it in a certain or specific manner.

You realize Trump was a Democrat...before he wasn't.

Right?

[Guest Godless]

52 minutes ago, Mores said:

So, you're following the media bandwagon on this one, eh?  Based on what?  Is there any evidence at all which would lead you to believe otherwise? 

If Barr is right, then the easiest way to make impeachment talk disappear is to release the full Mueller report. Plain and simple. 

Quote

What in anything that Trump has ever said would indicate that Trump was guilty of siding with Russia on anything.  His policy has always been "America First."  You think Russians would have been rooting for him? 

1. His eagerness to back out of Syria against the advisement of the Pentagon and intel community. 

2. Trump's business ties to Russia, which are extensive, well-documented, and a matter of public record. In a void, those ties are meaningless. But when you add in Russian election medding and Trump's apparent refusal to speak too harshly of Putin, even while sanctions are being imposed, there are suddenly some questions that need to be answered.

3. 13 Russian citizens and 3 Russian companies were indicted by Mueller for election interference. That the Russians actively helped Trump win is a well-documented fact. The big questions are why and to what extent did the Trump campaign know about and facilitate it. Again, there are indictments and known elements of the Mueller investigation that paint the Trump campaign as anything but innocent. And yes, "not innocent" isn't the same as "guilty", legally speaking. 

Quote

Hillary had been getting all kinds of illegal money flowing into her campaign (directly or indirectly) from Russian sources, and instead of helping her, they collude with Trump? 

You haven't been here long, so I'll forgive you for not knowing my stance on Hillary. In short, I was about as eager to vote for her as some Republicans were to vote for Trump. If you're looking for me to defend anything having to do with Hillary, you're going to be sorely disappointed. 

Quote

Yes, you're being completely impartial, unbiased, and reasonable.

Everyone has biases. I gladly wear mine on my sleeve. The point of this thread is that journalists should not. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Godless

[JohnsonJones]

of course the counterpoint that everyone ignores, but it is BLATANT is that the UK was DEEPLY involved in meddling with the election.  They had a much BIGGER impact on the election, and even politics and the mid terms than Russia with their meddling.  Heck, half the investigation of Trump was based because of direct meddling by the UK with one of their agents (even if such is not named as such and they claim plausible deniability).

No one wants to address "that" though because we are supposed to be friends.

Further, much ado has been in regards to Russian meddling with Trump (much of, which if one pays attention to appears to have deep connections to the Mob, which should surprise no one) but it seems Russia played BOTH sides of the pot.  They were also in bed with some campaigns against Trump as well...we just ignore them because the media seems to ignore them (including Fox, who also has overall ignored the collusion in campaign meddling from "allied" members from Europe).

I would REALLY like to see a less biased approach where we simply go after EVERYONE who was involved with meddling with our election...no favoritism towards hunting Russians, just make it clear to all foreigners (and that would also include JK Rowling who seems to have a greater interest in US politics than her own for some odd reason) that our politics are our own, and keep to theirs.

The problem being, of course, if we did that...they'd probably retaliate.  This is where it differs from the Russians, in that we already have sanctions on the Russians so they are an easy political target to throw trash at (whether guilty or not, though I'm positive the Russian MOB/Mafia were deeply involved with meddling, probably on Trumps behalf). 

However, to think that they were the only foreign player in the game, or even the most involved (I'd put China as more meddling at this point that Russia most likely, but no one has done that much investigation, probably because they were on Clinton's side I imagine, OR due to our delicate trade situation presently and for the past several years) is just being deluded.

This is why the media seems so one sided at times.  We see JK Rowling or some other individual who obviously has some influence (as any other celebrity does who has a LOT of Fame) start commenting about US politics and telling people what should or should not happen with what appears to be a set agenda, and then nothing.  Then we see nebulous items about Russians and see that they put out some ads...and people think...okay...which had the bigger visibility and bigger impact?

It needs to be broadened and NO ONE has immunity.  That means it's not just about Trump...any Republican...and ANY DEMOCRAT as well, in fact ANY POLITICIAN out there has their ties investigated.  Make it a general investigation into campaign meddling period.  That would probably turn up a LOT more evidence and information...and you know...it may turn up a few surprises also (perhaps it wasn't the Russians as the main group, maybe it was Israel that did far more and has the smoking gun with Trump, or maybe other national groups with politicians in their right pocket).

Edited March 29, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

I appreciate you posting the article. I was a Never Trumper. I still don't like him, and doubt that I ever will. He is crass, dishonest, and has done serious damage to alliances I think are vital to our security (NATO, South Korea, etc.). 

This really gets my goat.  Why are Americans so ignorant on international affairs?

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

We could take extremes both ways.  You'd vote for someone who wants to starve poor children and dance on top of their corpses.  Are you so willing to overlook child killers who make a mockery of their deaths?

Who wants to starve poor children and dance on their corpses?

And speaking of child killers... MS13 are child killers.

[anatess2]

This article hits the issue straight over the head.  https://nypost.com/2019/03/25/the-new-york-times-owes-trump-americans-a-big-fat-apology/

That's from the NY Post, the competitor to the NY Times.  They balance each other out.

[Midwest LDS]

40 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This really gets my goat.  Why are Americans so ignorant on international affairs?

Cost plus 50 was a crazy idea and it damaged relations with South Korea. Even though the Pentagon quickly walked that idea back, political damage was done. That's not even getting into the fact that NATO has been severely damaged through the president's ham fisted attempt to get them to pay their share of defense spending. Believe it or not I actually do believe they need to live up to their defense spending obligations, but the way Trump went about it has done nothing but embolden Russia. I may not agree with your political viewpoint, but please don't call me ignorant just because I see things differently from you.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[Guest Scott]

48 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This really gets my goat.  Why are Americans so ignorant on international affairs?

Midwest LDS is correct.   Trump has done a lot of damage to international relations.   And I am well familiar with international affairs.  Here is list of the 56 countries I have visited :

https://www.summitpost.org/highest-elevation-reached-in-each-country/1014083

Here they are on a map, though the smaller ones don't show up:

In the past year alone, I visited ten countries.

The are only a few countries in the world where relations have improved under Trump.   The Philippines and Israel are they only two that stand out as improving.  A few countries in Africa (such as Nigeria and Kenya) have remained neutral when it comes to improving relationship, but for most of the world, US support has gone way down, especially among our allies.   US support has gone down the most in Europe and Latin America.  

I know you strongly dislike him, but Obama improved international relationships among our allies in most of the world.   Israel is an exception.   

When we would travel when Obama is president we notice that one country even changed the name of their highest mountain to Mount Obama.  I doubt that any will for Trump.  There were billboards on streets and murals of Obama painted on buildings in some countries.  Now we see a bunch of negativity towards our president and even bumper stickers on cars overseas saying 'Stop Trump".  I have been travelling the world for decades and before Trump have never seen bumper stickers (Outside the US) that were negative towards the US.   

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Scott

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Cost plus 50 was a crazy idea and it damaged relations with South Korea. Even though the Pentagon quickly walked that idea back, political damage was done. That's not even getting into the fact that NATO has been severely damaged through the president's ham fisted attempt to get them to pay their share of defense spending. Believe it or not I actually do believe they need to live up to their defense spending obligations, but the way Trump went about it has done nothing but embolden Russia. I may not agree with your political viewpoint, but please don't call me ignorant just because I see things differently from you.

"NATO has been severely damaged through the president's ham-fisted attempt to get them to pay their share" is ignorant.  You are talking about a group of nations who are going around sanctions to get energy from Russia, nuclearize Iran, side with Syria against Israel... and you think making them commit to fund THEIR OWN PROTECTION against a threat they obviously don't find threatening is damaging them.

[anatess2]

18 minutes ago, Scott said:

Midwest LDS is correct.   Trump has done a lot of damage to international relations.   And I am well familiar with international affairs.  Here is list of the 56 countries I have visited :

https://www.summitpost.org/highest-elevation-reached-in-each-country/1014083

Here they are on a map, though the smaller ones don't show up:

In the past year alone, I visited ten countries.

The are only a few countries in the world where relations have improved under Trump.   The Philippines and Israel are they only two that stand out as improving.  A few countries in Africa (such as Nigeria and Kenya) have remained neutral when it comes to improving relationship, but for most of the world, US support has gone way down, especially among our allies.   US support has gone down the most in Europe and Latin America.  

I know you strongly dislike him, but Obama improved international relationships among our allies in most of the world.   Israel is an exception.   

When we would travel when Obama is president we notice that one country even changed the name of their highest mountain to Mount Obama.  I doubt that any will for Trump.  There were billboards on streets and murals of Obama painted on buildings in some countries.  Now we see a bunch of negativity towards our president and even bumper stickers on cars overseas saying 'Stop Trump".  I have been travelling the world for decades and before Trump have never seen bumper stickers (Outside the US) that were negative towards the US.   

 

"I traveled to 10 countries" just got negated by the bolded statement above.  Just the fact that you think the Philippines is "improving" (as in - they were in bad relations prior to Trump) is so incorrect it is laughable.  The Philippines kissed Clinton/Bush/Obama bottoms.  The Filipino people elected Duterte to put distance between the US and the Philippines because they were made to believe Clinton had a 90% chance of becoming President.

"Have never seen bumper stickers that were negative towards the US" - also laughable.  You must have forgotten that Obama went on an apology tour.

Now, here are the facts.  All you have to do is look at the rise of nationalism in the EU.  Add to that Brazil.  Look at who the people are electing in Italy, Poland... even tiny Iceland!  The French mobilization against Macron.  The emboldened protests in Iran.  Brexit.  The Trump celebrity worship in South Korea, Japan, China, Vietnam... Japan and China is oil and water - yet China and Japan are united in a Pacific Alliance.  Philippines and China are in a territory war.  Yet, they sit together in a Pacific alliance.  China is in a trade war with US and the Chinese are treating it like Vegas Showdown.  The popularity of Pewdepie, for crying out loud.  There's tons more things happening that you are not paying attention to in your travels.

Edited March 29, 2019 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

It is good times, these years.  Since the late 1980's, I've been one of the people talking about the left/liberal bias in mainstream media.  Here's what I see happening:

- These days the left/liberal/progressive bias seems to be an accepted reality (by both viewers and content providers). 

- It has been satisfying to watch print newspapers fall in circulation/prominence/validity/profits/# of employees. 

- Additionally, current forces (including the current president's extreme rhetoric of #fakenews), are basically killing CNN, MSNBC, and others.  "Mainstream media" is still the term, but as teh interwebs makes everything so dang accessible, that phrase has lost much of it's meaning.  CNN is becoming a laughing stock of clickbait titles and emotional sensationalism.

- Finally, lol:

[unixknight]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

You'd vote for someone who wants to starve poor children and dance on top of their corpses. 

Citation needed.

1 hour ago, Godless said:

The point of this thread is that journalists should not. 

Agreed, they shouldn't... But what's been happening lately goes way beyond open bias.  Bias is when you shift your emphasis to favor your point of view.  What's been happening in the last few years has been outright lies, coverups and distortions.

58 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Why are Americans so ignorant on international affairs?

Because most Americans know only what the MSM tells them.

14 minutes ago, Scott said:

I know you strongly dislike him, but Obama improved international relationships among our allies in most of the world.   Israel is an exception.   

When we would travel when Obama is president we notice that one country even changed the name of their highest mountain to Mount Obama.  I doubt that any will for Trump.  There were billboards on streets and murals of Obama painted on buildings in some countries.  

Now we see a bunch of negativity towards are present and even bumper stickers saying 'Stop Trump".  I have been travelling the world for decades and before Trump have never seen bumper stickers (Outside the US) that were negative towards the US.  

 

It isn't obvious to me why I should care what people in other countries think of our President.  You say that Obama improved relations... well yeah, of course other countries will like us better if we take a weaker, more passive stance and give them room to advance their interests.  Duh.  

If Trump is pushing for more favorable terms with trade, defense and so on then of course other countries will get ruffled.  They've benefitted from a very imbalanced set of agreements for a very, very long time.  It's long past time for that to end.  

"Hey, we need better trade terms with the EU.  Let's renegotiate while we're in a position of strength."

"OH NOEZ!  BUT THE EU WILL GET MAD AT US!"

"Ah, of course.  Can't have that."

Israel likes us?  GOOD!  They've been a fantastic ally and a strong friend that Obama absolutely threw right under the bus at every opportunity..  The Philippines like us?  GOOD.  We need a strategic ally in the region and they've been a good friend to us.  Oh, we're making the EU mad?  The EU, which is rapidly marching toward totalitarianism?  Aw, darn.  Making Russia mad?  Gee, I guess that flies in the face of the narrative that Putin pulls Trump's strings.  The middle east doesn't like us?  Spoiler alert:  That ain't news.  

Sorry for coming across as grumpy.  Long meetings today.

Edited March 29, 2019 by unixknight

[Midwest LDS]

17 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

"NATO has been severely damaged through the president's ham-fisted attempt to get them to pay their share" is ignorant.  You are talking about a group of nations who are going around sanctions to get energy from Russia, nuclearize Iran, side with Syria against Israel... and you think making them commit to fund THEIR OWN PROTECTION against a threat they obviously don't find threatening is damaging them.

No I don't. You didn't read my answer at all. I said I agreed they needed to pay their fair share. I said the President's ham fisted diplomatic efforts made a good idea, getting them to increase defense spending, turn out poorly and damaged their trust in us. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[Guest Scott]

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

"I traveled to 10 countries" just got negated by the bolded statement above.  Just the fact that you think the Philippines is "improving" (as in - they were in bad relations prior to Trump) is so incorrect it is laughable.  The Philippines kissed Clinton/Bush/Obama bottoms.  The Filipino people elected Duterte to put distance between the US and the Philippines because they were made to believe Clinton had a 90% chance of becoming President.

The percentage of people in the Philippines having a favorable view of the US has still increased under Trump.  I'd still call that an improvement.   And yes, I do trust Pew as a reliable source.   It's funny though that I was actually making a positive   

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

"Have never seen bumper stickers that were negative towards the US" - also laughable.  You must have forgotten that Obama went on an apology tour.

It wasn't an apology tour.  

13 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Now, here are the facts.  All you have to do is look at the rise of nationalism in the EU.  Add to that Brazil.  Look at who the people are electing in Italy, Poland... even tiny Iceland!  The French mobilization against Macron.  The emboldened protests in Iran.  The Trump celebrity worship in South Korea, Japan, China, Vietnam... Japan and China is oil and water - yet China and Japan are united in a Pacific Alliance.  Philippines and China are in a territory war.  Yet, they sit together in a Pacific alliance.  There's tons more things happening that you are not paying attention to in your travels.

What's you point?    US relations have still deteriorated in those places.   

[anatess2]

Just now, Midwest LDS said:

No I don't. You didn't read my answer at all. I said I agreed they needed to pay their fair share. I said the President's ham fisted diplomatic efforts made a good idea, getting them to increase defense spending, turn out poorly and damged their trust in us. 

NATO doesn't "trust" the US is very naive.  And has no place in geopolitical machinations.  They USED the US.  They know it.  Everybody knows it.  Now they know they can't use them anymore.  Yet they still know the US is their ONLY defense against Russia.  That is plain undeniable FACT that all those nations know.

[unixknight]

5 minutes ago, Scott said:

It wasn't an apology tour.  

That may not be what it was called, but that's what it was.

Edited March 29, 2019 by unixknight
typo

[Guest Scott]

20 minutes ago, unixknight said:

It isn't obvious to me why I should care what people in other countries think of our President.  You say that Obama improved relations... well yeah, of course other countries will like us better if we take a weaker, more passive stance and give them room to advance their interests.  Duh.  If

Most of the world views the United States as being weaker under Trump, not stronger.   This is especially true among our allies.     

Quote

 

Trump is pushing for more favorable terms with trade, defense and so on then of course other countries will get ruffled.  They've benefitted from a very imbalanced set of agreements for a very, very long time.  It's long past time for that to end.  

"Hey, we need better trade terms with the EU.  Let's renegotiate while we're in a position of strength."

 

I'm all for trade negotiation and fair trade.   It's doesn't mean Trump has to insult other countries to do that.  Most of Trump's insults to other countries have been unprovoked.  

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Scott

[Midwest LDS]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

NATO doesn't "trust" the US is very naive.  And has no place in geopolitical machinations.  They USED the US.  They know it.  Everybody knows it.  Now they know they can't use them anymore.  Yet they still know the US is their ONLY defense against Russia.  That is plain undeniable FACT that all those nations know.

Geopolitical trust is the basis of all alliance based systems. And it doesn't matter that they "used" us it was and still is in our political best interest to oppose the Russians. We used the NATO nations as much as they used us. We knew that a Russian attack in Europe was going to hit them hard while we shifted our troops to Europe in that eventuality, and we needed them to believe their sacrifice in that case was worth it. To think we weren't using them as much as they were using us is extremely naive. And, drumroll please, I am ok with that. Political relations are always about how much you can get for your country, and it was in our interest to have a group of nations to support us against the Soviet Union and now Russia. But we have to convince them still that we are better than Russia. They need to pay their fair share, but we need to keep them onside politically or Russia is going to gain diplomatic and political victories over us. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Midwest LDS

[anatess2]

15 minutes ago, Scott said:

The percentage of people in the Philippines having a favorable view of the US has still increased under Trump.  I'd still call that an improvement.   

 

Seriously, dude?  The percentage of people ALL OVER ASIA having a favorable view of the US has increased greatly due to what Trump has done in 2 years.  So, if you consider the Philippines kissing up to the US before Trump as having improved after Trump, then the rest of Asia is DEFINITELY a VAST improvement.

 

15 minutes ago, Scott said:

It wasn't an apology tour.  

You can call it whatever you want to call it, but it was a tour to supposedly repair relationships broken by Bush's war on terror.  And Obama proceeded to continue Bush's war complete with drone-strikes.

 

15 minutes ago, Scott said:

What's you point?    US relations have still deteriorated in those places.   

My exact point is you are giving bumper stickers as examples.  So that means you are talking about people and not just governments.  In that sense, you are wrong.  Those people that elected populist nationalists in their own governments favor Trump.  And obviously, since they are growing in numbers in government across Europe, the relationships are not deteriorating because of Trump.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by anatess2

[Guest Scott]

9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yet they still know the US is their ONLY defense against Russia.  

OK, we have agreement here.    The US spends billions on the defense of Europe and other countries, while they can afford things like healthcare.  

In my opinion at least, the US can't afford to protect all the nations that can afford to protect themselves.   On the other hand, the US gets into a lot of wars which we have no business being in (and I'm not talking about Trump-he has been good about this).

I assume we agree on this.

Where we might disagree is that I think we should cut back defense spending.   That's a different topic though.  

[unixknight]

7 minutes ago, Scott said:

Most of the world views the United States as being weaker under Trump, not stronger.   This is especially true among our allies.     

Citation needed.

7 minutes ago, Scott said:

I'm all for trade negotiation and fair trade.   It's doesn't mean Trump has to insult other countries to do that.  Most of Trump's insults to other countries have been unprovoked.  

I'm not too concerned about that.  Countries will make deals based on their own interests.   They're not going to pass up trade opportunities over simple insults.  Say what you will about Donald Trump, but the man knows business, he knows how to negotiate and he knows how to make good deals.  I trust him in this regard.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

OK, we have agreement here.    The US spends billions on the defense of Europe and other countries, while they can afford things like healthcare.  

In my opinion at least, the US can't afford to protect all the nations that can afford to protect themselves.   On the other hand, the US gets into a lot of wars which we have no business being in (and I'm not talking about Trump-he has been good about this).

I assume we agree on this.

Where we might disagree is that I think we should cut back defense spending.   That's a different topic though.  

Now you're seeing what I'm saying.  Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama was BAD BAD BAD to international geopolitics. Now you finally have a sensible foreign affairs policy under Trump and you got Americans like @Midwest LDS who say things like "Trump has done serious damage to alliances I think are vital to our security (NATO, South Korea, etc.)."

[Guest Scott]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

The percentage of people ALL OVER ASIA having a favorable view of the US has increased greatly due to what Trump has done in 2 years.  

Source?  I disagree.     

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

My exact point is you are giving bumper stickers as examples.  So that means you are talking about people and not just governments.  In that sense, you are wrong.

I don't know the reasons behind the bumper stickers, but they were all over St Eustatius, Saba, and Sint Maarten.    Here's a picture I took of one:

I also saw them in Norway and Iceland, though of a different style.   I understand the reasoning behind the ones in Iceland and Norway, but not the ones in the Caribbean.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, unixknight said:

he knows how to negotiate and he knows how to make good deals.

He knows how to negotiate and make good deals that benefit his own interests. I'm not sure he knows how to negotiate and make good deals that benefit the national interest. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by MormonGator