Church policy change on same sex marriage


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2 minutes ago, Scott said:

I didn't accuse anyone.  I chose my quotes at random without mentioning any names.  I simply when to a post and pulled out the first few posts that met the criteria.   Do you seriously want to make this personal?  

If you really want me to, I will, but I ask for your permission first.

Don't be disingenuous, Scott.

Still awaiting your response to my posts above, wherein I show that your accusations against members of this board are ill-founded and your charges that we focus on homosexual sin at the expense of heterosexual sin misplaced and frankly absurd. Please justify your accusations in the face of the obvious observation that, on this list, there are defenders of homosexual misconduct but not of heterosexual misconduct.

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Guest Scott
4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Sure. Because we all know there are places all over the world where they put gay people into prison or kill them.

It's more than just the Middle East.  

I even outlined the Middle East for you:

middle.thumb.jpeg.2a7e53a0d1dfc5c67598e4ac9b609ae5.jpeg

 

 

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, unixknight said:

The hair-splitting in this thread is getting aggravating.  It really is.

Welcome to the internet. You must be new here. Have some chips. 

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31 minutes ago, Scott said:

It's more than just the Middle East.  

I even outlined the Middle East for you:

middle.thumb.jpeg.2a7e53a0d1dfc5c67598e4ac9b609ae5.jpeg

 

 

Hmm. Well, I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I was actually saying there are no examples anywhere else in the world but in the middle east (which I wasn't...but the most egregious and common examples are likely there...but sure...I can see how you got there from the way I phrased things)...so for the sake of expedience I'll just acquiesce and state plainly: I agree. There are many places where homosexuality is illegal, and some even carries the death penalty. And I'll even freely admit -- there are more places where it is "illegal" (whatever that actually means -- a $20 fine for a dude kissing another dude in public is quite a stretch from hanging them both) than I thought. Okay. So....what does that have to do with the debate at hand?

You added to my idea that half the world (which was an exaggeration...granted) would praise a gay man for leaving his wife, that many people would kill him instead. So...seriously here...what point are you trying to make?

I was saying that there are points of debate because of the disagreement here on the forum, and that's why we debate homosexuality more than adultery...because when it comes to adultery there are very few points of debate.

What was your point in adding that homosexuality is illegal in a lot of places?

I'm curious too (on a side note): How many of the places where homosexuality is illegal is adultery also illegal?

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Guest Scott
15 minutes ago, Vort said:

Don't be disingenuous, Scott.

Still awaiting your response to my posts above, wherein I show that your accusations against members of this board are ill-founded and your charges that we focus on homosexual sin at the expense of heterosexual sin misplaced and frankly absurd. Please justify your accusations in the face of the obvious observation that, on this list, there are defenders of homosexual misconduct but not of heterosexual misconduct.

OK Vort.  That's sort of related, but before this thread, can you show all of your post condemning something, say President Trump did?  Maybe I missed them.  I can show you plenty of posts you made that call out "the Left" or whoever.   I don't think you accept heterosexual immorality as being "good", but you are certainly more vocal about pointing out the wrongs of people who you disagree with.  By saying that I am not attacking you, but it's human nature.   I don't even dislike you in any way.  A lot of people seem to do that and I am only mentioning this because you seem to want to make this more personal.

I'm going to go one step farther in my statement and say that a lot of people are really good at confessing their neighbor's sins, but the degree of confessing your neighbors sins is dependent on whether or not you like or agree with that person.    Maybe I am in the same category too.   

Let me put it simply and plainly.  

My point was that people hold those whom they like or agree with to a different standard than those they don't like.  In this case it might be homosexuality and heterosexuality, but it can be any number of topics or sins.  

While the above is certainly true, my post in itself was meant to be troll-ish.  It was meant in good fun.  

So, you might ask why I chose to use conservatives in my post.  I am an Independent, but it seems that there are a lot of negative comments on here towards anyone who isn't conservative.   There are good LDS members who are Independents, Democrats, or whatever, but it seems like they are being chased away.   

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Guest LiterateParakeet
2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 I know full well that @LiterateParakeet, for example, has goodness, compassion, love, and mercy underlying her views.

Thank you, that is my goal. Gotta say Pres. Nelson's plea to repent daily has been a reminder of how far I still have to go.  :)

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Guest LiterateParakeet
24 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Know what I learned the other day?  Alligators can climb trees.

That is not a joke.

Holy Cow Batman!  I had to look that up, because it seemed ridiculous and maybe plausible at the same time.  It's TRUE.  

That's it @MormonGator, I'm never coming back to Florida. Be careful on your bike, Lol.

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3 minutes ago, Scott said:

OK Vort.  That's sort of related, but before this thread, can you show all of your post condemning something, say President Trump did?  Maybe I missed them.

I can, but I won't. I haven't been shy about criticizing Trump when I felt the need to do so. If you can't find those posts, then I'm not going to do so to try to justify myself to you.

(Helpful hint: Use this site's search function to search for posts by "Vort" that contain the term "Trump". You will get four pages of results. Start on Page 4 and work your way up.)

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

I can show you plenty of posts you made that call out "the Left" or whoever.   I don't think you accept heterosexual immorality as being "good", but you are certainly more vocal about pointing out the wrongs of people who you disagree with.

Isn't this obvious? Why would I point out the "wrongs" of people I agree with, and who therefore I don't think are doing wrong?

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

By saying that I am not attacking you, but it's human nature.   I don't even dislike you in any way.

I appreciate that. The feeling (of not disliking) is mutual, though your seeming attacks on list members (including myself) for not being sufficiently vocal about evils that rarely come up for debate made me question how you felt.

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

A lot of people seem to do that and I am only mentioning this because you seem to want to make this more personal.

Yes, when I'm personally attacked, even if not named, I do tend to take it personally. Consider it a personality flaw, one of  many that dog me.

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

I'm going to go one step farther in my statement and say that a lot of people are really good at confessing their neighbor's sins, but the degree of confessing your neighbors sins is dependent on whether or not you like or agree with that person.

I have seen this charge leveled before by @MormonGator, among others. I don't understand it, though, because I rarely see list members here "confessing [their] neighbors' sins". Pointing out that X is a sin is hardly "confessing" it, and even mentioning that your neighbor commits Sin X is not condemning your neighbor. Furthermore, I rarely see people bringing up their neighbors' sins out of thin air; in almost every case, it's a matter of Sin X being discussed, typically with some people claiming that X isn't really a sin or that the sinful nature of X is overstressed or some other exculpatory defense, that leads a list member to talk about Sin X being a real live sin.

I have asked you many times in this thread alone for examples of your claims of misbehavior. In this case, I ask again. Please point out some times when you think someone is "confessing [their] neighbors' sins", and let's examine your citations to see if that's really what's going on. I'm going to predict that if you do actually provide citations, they won't pan out on examination.

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

Let me put it simply and plainly.

My point was that people hold those whom they like or agree with to a different standard than those they don't like.  In this case it might be homosexuality and heterosexuality, but it can be any number of topics or sins.  

Again, isn't this obvious? I impute no sin at all to a married (heterosexual) couple who engage in mutual sexual relations. Zero sin; quite the opposite, in fact. But I impute great sin to homosexuals who do the same, even if their relationship carries the state's imprimatur of "marriage".

Perhaps you are claiming something more like: Conservatives tend to be Republicans, and thus impute less evil to other Republicans than they do to leftists/Democrats. That's an entirely different situation, and you may well be correct. But if you're going to make such accusations toward members of this list, then once again, I request that you back up your accusations.

3 minutes ago, Scott said:

So, you might ask why I chose to use conservatives in my post.  I am an Independent, but it seems that there are a lot of negative comments on here towards anyone who isn't conservative.   There are good LDS members who are Independents, Democrats, or whatever, but it seems like they are being chased away.   

My perspective: In almost every case, this is due to the "non-conservative" list members stating a position with which most (possibly "conservative") list members disagree. Then those list members say something like, "I disagree", and explain why. That cannot reasonably be considered chasing people away.

At times, such discussions go further, with someone bringing morality into the discussion. It might be the "conservative" member asserting that his/her position is the morally correct one, perhaps even citing scripture or prophetic teaching. Just as often (perhaps moreso), it's the "non-conservative" list member asserting that his/hers is the morally correct position. When this happens, do you really believe that the ("conservative") list majority has some sort of obligation to hold back on discussion that might upset the "non-conservative" list member? If not, what exactly are you suggesting?

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3 hours ago, Scott said:

Why do immoral behaviors of heterosexuals often generate less discussion (not only in our Church, but elsewhere) than the immoral behavior of homosexuals? 

It is because we are more in agreement about the heterosexual immorality, which is why it is less controversial.

Ironically, that is the rub. Logically, there shouldn't be as much disagreement about homosexual immorality as there is about heterosexual immorality. But, pop culture has granted special status to homosexuals, and members, like yourself,  cater to that unwarranted favoritism. If you and other left-leaning members were consistent, there wouldn't be the greater degree of disagreement and controversy.

[Edit: I just noticed that others have iterated and reiterated this point earlier in the thread. But, evidently it bears repeating since it seems to be lost on some]

Thanks, -Wade  Englund-

 

Edited by wenglund
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Guest Scott
47 minutes ago, Vort said:

Perhaps you are claiming something more like: Conservatives tend to be Republicans, and thus impute less evil to other Republicans than they do to leftists/Democrats. That's an entirely different situation, and you may well be correct.

Yes, that is what I was referring to. Obviously the reverse is true as well.  

Quote

My perspective: In almost every case, this is due to the "non-conservative" list members stating a position with which most (possibly "conservative") list members disagree. 

That hasn't been my perspective.  

Quote

The feeling (of not disliking) is mutual, though your seeming attacks

I mentioned no names, but only picked posts at random.  I could not show posts without quoting them.   This wasn't meant to attack anyone.   

Quote

If not, what exactly are you suggesting?

Can we go to a specific thread as an example?  Let's choose this one for example:
 


Now, I'm not speaking about your original post when creating the thread.  Your original post has nothing to do with what I am referring to.  I am only speaking of the comments made by others in the thread itself.  

Do you really think that the really negative posts in that thread are simply "due to the "non-conservative" list members stating a position with which most (possibly "conservative") list members disagree"?

If so, I wouldn't agree.  

Edited by Scott
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29 minutes ago, wenglund said:

[Edit: I just noticed that others have iterated and reiterated this point earlier in the thread. But, evidently it bears repeating since it seems to be lost on some]

What's interesting to me is that we all (those who've replied) have independently all said the exact same thing. Which leads one to the potential conclusion that the idea should be obvious. Which leads to the question (or...begs it -- just to bug @Vort :D) why isn't it obvious to people like @Scott?

I have a premise:

p0493vjz.jpg

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49 minutes ago, Scott said:

Can we go to a specific thread as an example?  Let's choose this one for example:
 


Now, I'm not speaking about your original post when creating the thread.  Your original post has nothing to do with what I am referring to.  I am only speaking of the comments made by others in the thread itself.  

Do you really think that the really negative posts in that thread are simply "due to the "non-conservative" list members stating a position with which most (possibly "conservative") list members disagree"?

If so, I wouldn't agree.  

Looking through that thread, which I started but which I followed only irregularly, was an interesting experience. I specifically started that thread as a screed against the blatant anti-free-speech sentiment of a segment of the population—which in that case just happened to be leftists. That so many agreed with me simply suggests that most (who responded) see things the way I do on that topic. That anyone would disagree with the premise is highly  unlikely on this forum, but some did disagree with my implications (and outright statements) that this was a leftist phenomenon.

I note, to my chagrin, that many of the negative posts on that particular thread were authored by Yours Truly, and were primarily directed to one certain individual, based on my belief that this individual refused to face up to the statements and clear implications made by this individual. Another example of my flawed personality on display, flaws for which I will certainly answer to my Creator.

But yes, in general, the non-conservative list members disagreed with the statements and implications of myself and a few other list members, and that was the genesis of most of the negative comments. Not all, I grant. There is a kernel of truth to what you say. But I also believe that that particular thread, which was openly written as critical of the political left, is not really representative of many of the threads here under discussion.

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Guest MormonGator
16 hours ago, Vort said:

In reality 99.99999% of alligators are more afraid of you then you are of them. The odds of getting attacked by an alligator are 1 in 2.4 million. 

With rare tragic exceptions (yes, like the little boy in Disney World) in order to be attacked by an alligator you have to do something incredibly stupid. Like try to feed them. Or fall asleep drunk near a lake. Or ignore signs that say "Danger. Alligators"  

Edited by MormonGator
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Guest LiterateParakeet
33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

In reality 99.99999% of alligators are more afraid of you then you are of them. 

Are you sure? Because my kids bearded dragons can look pretty intimidating if they're hungry...and they're related after all.  :)

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19 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That is a statistical falsehood.

It might be correct to say that one side doesn't use these ideas to drive their narrative, but when push comes to shove, the statistics of who gives more to charity are what they are.

See, this is an example of what @Scott was talking about.

I am not even a democrat or, really even a liberal (being an independent, though anyone that is right of center but not further seems to be seen as liberal here) and people take umbrage when listing stereotypes...but NOTE...they don't take it when the same type of stereotype is stated against the other side just as strongly...

The difficulty people have is that they relate their political party to their religion...aka...idolatry...but in place of an idol is the political party and all others are the false religion.

Yet, I see it constantly among people these days, especially among those who claim to be Christian. 

People put their party (Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal) as their religion.  Not out loud, but through their actions.  They put their party on a pedestal so high that it might as well supersede their claimed religion, and any other is part of the enemy of their church, including anyone who is not part of their party or at least the party they feel they should identify with.

Each party has it's share of those who have values that correspond to the Lord's values, and many who do not.  None of them are in step with the Lord's Laws these days, and it is rather crazy how far people go to believe in a political ideology to the point they will defend it stronger then their own religious tendencies and blame other parties more strongly than they would the enemies who seek to tear down the church.

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38 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

In reality 99.99999% of alligators are more afraid of you then you are of them. The odds of getting attacked by an alligator are 1 in 2.4 million. 

With rare tragic exceptions (yes, like the little boy in Disney World) in order to be attacked by an alligator you have to do something incredibly stupid. Like try to feed them. Or fall asleep drunk near a lake. Or ignore signs that say "Danger. Alligators"  

What about the kung fu gators?

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18 hours ago, Vort said:

Don't be disingenuous, Scott.

Still awaiting your response to my posts above, wherein I show that your accusations against members of this board are ill-founded and your charges that we focus on homosexual sin at the expense of heterosexual sin misplaced and frankly absurd. Please justify your accusations in the face of the obvious observation that, on this list, there are defenders of homosexual misconduct but not of heterosexual misconduct.

Not focused on you specifically...

And before going into it, I will say (though it is probably known already) that I did NOT vote for Trump.  I do not agree with how Trump goes about in his moral fashion.  I do appreciate some of the judges put in place, but Trump is not one I think I could vote for.

That said, I also try not to watch movies that are overly engaged in language, violence, or sexual situations.  This, unfortunately, is what is included in MOST movies of our day.  I tend to watch PG movies at worse, and normally even some of those movies are full of terrible incidents of sin and gross evil. Many of the movies I watch are older movies today which do not share the same profligate items that are popular in our films currently.  Occasionally I have been dragged to worse movies by grandchildren, but I try to avoid most of them today.

The same would apply to modern popular music. It is full of statements that drive away the spirit and promote immorality.

These things would have been considered pornography or pornographic in my childhood and yet today it is everywhere.

Yet, we see constantly, on these boards posts that brag about watching movies that are full of "heterosexual sin" and promoting "promiscuity" in showing that fornication and other such immoral acts are glamorous and praiseworthy.  We give these TV shows, Movies, and music a free pass while at the same time saying we do not support such sin. 

But...we are supporting the promotion of it with our money, our time, and our eyes and ears. 

This is probably NOT what was meant in the above discussion, but this is something I observe.  I typically remain quiet about it as most would see me being too preachy, call me self-righteous, and all sorts of other items and perhaps even be offended. 

It is better to remain silent and let others practice as they choose. 

However, I see immorality as being accepted as common place in our Western society today.  It is promoted constantly and in great amounts in media.  It is no surprise that members of the church are consuming such things in great quantities.  Still, for old foggies like me stuck in the old ages, I find it disheartening at times.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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