Is Dubai determined to destroy itself?

[Jamie123]

The United Arab Emirates is the shiny modern seeming-paradise it is because of oil - and that oil is running out. The country (federation - whatever you want to call it) needs a new sustainable income, and its rather nice location makes tourism a wonderful option. They've built these fantastic structures out at sea to extend their usable shoreline - wonderful islands and lagoons. I'm sure you've seen the ads! What a wonderful place to go and visit!

And yet those idiots are shooting themselves in the foot with nonsense like this: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/london-mum-faces-two-years-in-jail-in-dubai-and-50000-fine-for-calling-exhusbands-new-wife-a-horse-a4111441.html. And it's not the first time: Last year Ellie Holman was arrested and locked up for 3 days for drinking wine offered to her by a UAE air stewardess in a UAE plane! She could have been jailed for a long time, had the Crown Prince of Dubai not stepped in and had her released - saying (and this really makes me laugh) something to the effect that he hoped she would visit his country again soon.

I somehow don't thing she will. And neither am I taking my family anywhere near the UAE.

[JohnsonJones]

Dubai is probably one of the friendlier nations towards Westerners (Europeans and Americans) of any of the nations in the area.

For those who normally are endowed with the usual Westerner values (which include lots of infidelity, alcohol consumption, etc) I would advise them to steer CLEAR of the middle east.  Most of the nations are VERY STRICT on their codes of morality.  These codes are closer to the old testament regulations of sin and punishment than anything we have in Europe or the Americas.

Dubai is trying to adapt a way where they make both the traditionalist in their nation happy while at the same time catering to tourists from other nations.  It's a tightrope of issues to walk across and probably will be filled with incidents like described.

After reading the article I'd also place the onus partially on Britain.  A quick retaliatory statement about trade, sanctions, or even war probably would quickly have resolved this situation rapidly (as long as the lady was a British citizen).  Small nations like UAE normally quickly decide to do something different when they offend a larger nation so heavily as to threaten international incidents that go off the scale.

Make it clear that such actions are UNACCEPTABLE when dealing with British subjects and if they do so they can expect a quick and perhaps bad response and Dubai will change it's stance to one where they simply send the offenders back home rather than keep them for trial over such trivial items.

I can understand keeping someone for an incident like murder, or even catering to prostitution, but something like this...I'd have sent a very clear message about treating citizens with respect rather than doing something like this.

It is probably still a wise idea that those who have Western ways of thinking steer clear of most nations in the Middle East (and probably extending all the way to the borders of India...India may be acceptable to some though there are those who would still offend those in India as well) as they are a bit prickly about Westerners doing things which break traditional ideas, morals, and laws in the Middle East.

This lady seems a bit more of a mystery.  Is she a British citizen?  She also lived in Dubai, at least for several months, which indicates that she may know what the laws are.  In addition, she needs a good lawyer.  If she can show that the wife who laid the accusation was actually committing adultery with the ex-husband (or vice versa)...well...that ex-husbands wife would probably also get a dose of Dubai justice if they apply their laws in a more typical fashion.

Edited April 8, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[unixknight]

My wife and I watch Formula 1 racing regularly and she's convinced (and I don't say she's wrong) that Lewis Hamilton (British driver for the Mercedes team and current world champion) is gay.  At first I thought that was unlikely since this is 2019, why would he need to hide it?  And then I remembered... Some of the races take place in Middle Eastern countries, where being openly gay can easily be a death sentence... and foreigners ain't exempt.  Bahrain, Azerbaijan and Abu Dhabi.

And yet it's gotta be a balancing act.  On one hand, these countries wouldn't want to have to lose Formula 1 coming to them each year... There's an immense amount of money in Formula 1 and in some cases may well represent a significant slice of the national income.  On the other hand, they can't be seen to tolerate immoral behavior by such a public figure in their country.  I suspect there's a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of arrangement there.

[Jamie123]

47 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

For those who normally are endowed with the usual Westerner values (which include lots of infidelity, alcohol consumption, etc...

...and also such moral depravity as calling someone a horse. (Not even a "horse's arse", but an actual "horse"!) I'm sure plenty of "temple worthy" Mormons have called people worse. So let's not suggest this is drunken whoremonger's problem.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Dubai is trying to adapt a way where they make both the traditionalist in their nation happy while at the same time catering to tourists from other nations.  It's a tightrope of issues to walk across and probably will be filled with incidents like described.

All I can say about that is they have a funny idea of what helps you walk a tightrope. Greased roller skates and banana skins perhaps. And I wonder how happy these "traditionalists" are that the state-owned airline serves alcohol to its passengers.

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Some of the races take place in Middle Eastern countries, where being openly gay can easily be a death sentence... and foreigners ain't exempt.

I can well believe if they wanted to convict you of something they'd find something. In Sudan they imprisoned a woman for calling her teddy bear Mohammed. That was an "insult" to their prophet. Well...

Police: Are you a Muslim?

Me: No, I'm a Christian.

Police: So you don't believe Mohammed (peace be upon him) was a prophet?

Me: I believe in Jesus Christ.

Police: So was Mohammed a prophet?

Me: I...(lying) I don't know.

Police: Liar! You don't believe he was a prophet!

Me: Look, I just want to get to the airport to go...

Police: If he wasn't a prophet what was he? You're saying he must have been a fake!

Me: I'm not saying anything...

Police: Yes you are! You said that you were a Christian so you must believe Mohammed (peace be upon him) was not a prophet. Which means you are calling him a fake! That is an insult to our faith! You come here from your nasty Christian country with your nasty Christian ideas and you INSULT OUR RELIGION!!! I am placing you under arrest!

Edited April 8, 2019 by Jamie123

[anatess2]

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

And it's not the first time: Last year Ellie Holman was arrested and locked up for 3 days for drinking wine offered to her by a UAE air stewardess in a UAE plane!

Sigh.

Ellie Holman... the botox woman... is one of those immigration nightmares.  Americans don't seem to understand that illegal entry into any other country outside of the USA carries very high penalties.  Sure, you hear about refugees entering the EU no problem.  But that's just for refugees.

Holman is a dual citizen - Iranian and Swede - and presented an expired Iranian visa to Dubai and when caught, presented an expired Swede passport.  Also, she entered with a child she claimed her daughter when her expired visa application indicated she's not travelling with children.  The Dubai officer offered to guide her through a transit visa application which would cover her intended short stay but no... Ellie decided to whip up her smartphone and record the Dubai officer inside customs which is again, highly illegal.

But yeah, Ellie thinks she can get away with calling it a "she offered me alcoholic drinks so I got detained" cooked up by her PR firm to get the Brits involved as she has her botox business in London.

Edited April 8, 2019 by anatess2

[Jamie123]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

But yeah, Ellie thinks she can get away with calling it a "she offered me alcoholic drinks so I got detained" cooked up by her PR firm to get the Brits involved as she has her botox business in London.

Call it what you like, that was the excuse the UAE used for detaining her.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Call it what you like, that was the excuse the UAE used for detaining her.

Hah hah.  No.  That's the excuse her PR FIRM located in Dubai told the press to blackmark Dubai and force the monarchy to release her to avoid the PR nightmare.

Edited April 8, 2019 by anatess2

[Jamie123]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Hah hah.  No.  That's the excuse her PR FIRM located in Dubai told the press to blackmark Dubai and force the monarchy to release her.

And the "PR firm" cooked that up out of thin air did they?

[JohnsonJones]

It is a strange situation in the Middle East.  Most of them want the foreign investment (oil, tourism, etc) that other nations can bring in, but many also want to preserve their national and religious culture.  These two things can conflict with each other, especially when you have those from other nations that may not agree or live the same morals or ideas that they do.

It should be approached with a great deal of caution when going to one of these nations.  They are VERY patriarchal and women in many nations and many instances do not have the same rights as men.  Women going to such nations should be cognizant of such differences.

It is for this reason that when I travel to such nations and even when I am not there I try to respect their culture and society.  They are not normally places I would want to bring my spouse, and I would normally advise my daughters not to travel to such nations.  I also try to be careful in my actions both when I am there on visits, research, as well as when I am not in those nations.  I try to talk about them with respect whether I am there or I am not.  Many think that because they are outside of those nations and travel back and forth that they are immune to the laws and prosecutions of those nations.  This is not necessarily so.  This can also include part time residents and tourists.

However, as many of them are now trying to find industries that may not rely as much on oil and more on tourism, it causes a lot of stresses between the different cultures that are arriving there.   The lady in the article appears to have been residing in that nation for at least several months.  AS such, she was subject to their ideas of legality and justice.  Just as if someone in Britain committed an offence and flew away, police may be waiting for them when they arrive back. 

I do not think that this makes this a good situation, but I also think that British entities could have solved this rapidly if they so chose to do.  There may be more to this story than is stated.  In addition, I find it odd (adultery can be seen as a crime, especially in relation to women, meaning the woman that supposedly laid the charges should be subject to some very serious laws) that the case has taken such a turn.  I have not heard of calling another such a name as breaking any laws, but there are various things that it may fall under.  It seems to me that the lady needs a good lawyer. 

At the same time, I would not advise the Middle East to everyone.  It sounds that, for you, finding other vacation locations may be the best choice.  I would advise any woman who wants to go a nation in South West Asia only travel there when accompanied by a husband or other male relative.  It can be a very nice place, and they are VERY moral people in general in comparison to those in the West.  However, with that higher morality, they also expect or think in somewhat different ways than some of the other nationalities of the world.

PS: I am wondering if her ex-husband was a citizen of one of the nations in the area and thus could legally practice a polygamous type marriage.  If so, her divorcing him, if he did not desire this, could be the real cause and reason behind the arrest.  The name calling seems odd to arrest anyone for, even in Dubai or other nations in the area.  More possible would be difficulties in regards to marriage laws, divorce, and other items which normally fall in the purvue of men rather than women, and which can cause women many legal problems if they pursue them without the consent of their husbands or even without the husband himself pursuing it.

Edited April 8, 2019 by JohnsonJones

[anatess2]

14 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

And the "PR firm" cooked that up out of thin air did they?

Pretty much.

She didn't get put in jail for alcohol consumption on an airplane.  She was put in jail for illegal immigration and filming in customs.  But hey, you can believe what you want if you're so hell bent on painting the UAE as barbaric nations to fit your narrative.

[anatess2]

19 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It is a strange situation in the Middle East non-Western nations.  Most of them want the foreign investment (oil, tourism, etc) that other nations can bring in, but many also want to preserve their national and religious culture.  These two things can conflict with each other, especially when you have those from other nations that may not agree or live the same morals or ideas that they do.

Fixed that for you.

[unixknight]

46 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I can well believe if they wanted to convict you of something they'd find something. 

Sorta?  In the case I'm talking about this would be a very public (and by "public" I mean "known all over the world as a celebrity") figure entering their country and not being arrested.  There'd be pressure on the governments where homosexuality is illegal to arrest him just for coming to the country, even if he didn't do anything but race that car the entire time he was there.  

(Again, we don't know that he's gay, but it would explain why it's never mentioned if he is.)

[Jamie123]

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Pretty much.

She didn't get put in jail for alcohol consumption on an airplane.  She was put in jail for illegal immigration and filming in customs.  But hey, you can believe what you want if you're so hell bent on painting the UAE as barbaric nations to fit your narrative.

Yes I'm sure it wasn't the *real* reason -  it was an excuse. Her real crime was to annoy some petty officials -  which I admit was stupid of her,  but that's another issue. And yes I'm sure her pr machine put their own spin on things, but if they'd cooked the alcohol story entirely out of thin air I think the UAE would have made a bigger stink about it than they have. The point I'm making is that this is not the way for a country to behave if it desperately needs to attract tourism. 

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Yes I'm sure it wasn't the *real* reason -  it was an excuse. Her real crime was to annoy some petty officials -  which I admit was stupid of her,  but that's another issue. And yes I'm sure her pr machine put their own spin on things, but if they'd cooked the alcohol story entirely out of thin air I think the UAE would have made a bigger stink about it than they have. The point I'm making is that this is not the way for a country to behave if it desperately needs to attract tourism. 

Really?  Committing fraud to thwart a country's immigration laws is just... "annoying some petty officials"...

Of course they made a big stink about it.  That's how I found out about it.  But, what can you do when you have people like you who would rather believe the Fake News.  There's too many of those people in the West.

Edited April 8, 2019 by anatess2

[Vort]

Just now, anatess2 said:

But, what can you do when you have people like you who only consume Fake News.

My sympathies lie with anatess' viewpoint, but I must respond to this.

1. Through his years here, Jamie has consistently displayed an honest and keen intellect (not to mention a good sense of humor and a healthy tendency to laugh at what might otherwise be considered offensive).

2. Jamie, like most Brits, probably gets his news through news services such as bbc.co.uk. It is well-known that European news agencies are quite socially leftist; Jamie can hardly be blamed for being influenced by the perspective he's fed. BBC is far from unbiased, but given that CNN and the NYT represent American journalism to the rest of the world, we don't really have any room to point fingers.

I have heard nothing of any of this until I read this thread. Based purely on the information in this thread, I tend to think that anatess is probably hitting closer to the heart of the truth. But in my mind, that does not reflect badly on Jamie. If things really were as he presented them, I doubt anyone on here would think it fine.

Though I'm no fan of Islamists, I also know perfectly well what the Western press (both European and American) think of the morality and beliefs of Middle Eastern countries. On the one hand, it's the height of PC fashion to defend those poor Muslims from the evil Jewish depravities visited upon them so frequently. On the other hand, who can defend such Dark Ages morality as expecting chastity?! What, they put people to death for mere adultery?! The barbarians!

When they rape or beat up their women, count me as a voice in opposition. But when they simply say, "No fornication here, or we'll prosecute you," then my sympathies lie far more with them than with the godless West.

[Jamie123]

17 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Really?  Committing fraud to thwart a country's immigration laws is just... "annoying some petty officials"...

Of course they made a big stink about it.  That's how I found out about it.  But, what can you do when you have people like you who would rather believe the Fake News.  There's too many of those people in the West.

Fake News? I guess that's your.... **drum roll** .... TRUMP card! Hahahahahahaa... (I really amuse myself sometimes.)

Seriously though, I've just done a quick bit of Googling to refresh my memory. The news at the time said she had been told to return to London because of her expired visa, but had chosen instead to get "bolshy". On the other hand the story is a little different here: https://www.thenational.ae/uae/deported-swede-ellie-holman-concedes-she-made-visa-mistake-at-dubai-airport-1.760775 . If you believe that, they weren't even attempting to deport her - but of course "The National" is an Emirati newspaper, so who knows?

17 hours ago, Vort said:

1. Through his years here, Jamie has consistently displayed an honest and keen intellect (not to mention a good sense of humor and a healthy tendency to laugh at what might otherwise be considered offensive).

Thank you very much Vort - I appreciate it. I also appreciate being knocked off my soap box every now and then by someone like you or Anatess. It's one of the things I like about this forum - that and the healthy disdain for political correctness!

Edited April 9, 2019 by Jamie123

[Vort]

Jamie, I have long valued your participation on this forum. I hope to enjoy your company for many years to come.

After diligently spending at least two minutes Googling "Ellie Holman", I now feel eminently qualified to offer expert opinion on the topic.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brit-mum-ellie-holman-locked-13118728—The Mirror seems to think "Doctor" Holman is a tragic victim of Middle Eastern depravity and narrow-mindedness. Ironically, this article is (unintentionally, I'm sure) far more an indictment of Ms. Holman than a defense. Note how those horrible UAE people had her sleep in a cell that didn't smell nice! Oh, the humanity! Oh, and where's the whole glass of wine thing? Could it be that it was cooked up out of thin air, manufactured (as they say) from whole cloth?

Here's the American version of the story, all gift-wrapped as a tragic fairy tale story with a happy ending: https://www.foxnews.com/travel/emirates-passenger-detained-in-dubai-for-allegedly-drinking-wine-finally-reunited-with-family-in-uk And before you paint Fox News with the "fake news" brush, consider that CNN had nothing on the story at all. Nothing. Didn't even move CNN's needle. So Fox News is apparently the only major US news outlet that carried the story. After thoroughly digesting that factoid, go ahead and paint Fox News with the "fake news" brush.

The Sun: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6984240/ellie-holman-dubai-arrested-daughter/ Another breathless retelling from Holman's POV. What I found funny here is that Holman claimed to have stayed awake for three whole days for fear of being raped. And that's apparently newsworthy. Not that she was raped—she was not—but merely that she claimed that she was afraid that she might be raped. Three thousand years of Western culture have culminated in this moment.

 (To be fair, The Sun did follow up with a slightly less overtly biased piece.)

Gotta say, this has all the hallmarks of a standard entitled-westerner-meets-real-world-and-cries-about-it tale.

[Vort]

Btw, I enjoyed the Trump card joke. Predictable but solid. You can't blame a guy for picking the low-hanging fruit when it's so sweet.

[Traveler]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:10 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Dubai is probably one of the friendlier nations towards Westerners (Europeans and Americans) of any of the nations in the area.

It is probably still a wise idea that those who have Western ways of thinking steer clear of most nations in the Middle East (and probably extending all the way to the borders of India...India may be acceptable to some though there are those who would still offend those in India as well) as they are a bit prickly about Westerners doing things which break traditional ideas, morals, and laws in the Middle East.

It is a very bad idea to get drunk or high in any foreign country and under the influence try to find your way back to your hotel (or room) alone.  For that matter it is not that good of an idea here in the USA either.

 

The Traveler

[KScience]

On 4/9/2019 at 5:06 PM, Vort said:

Jamie, I have long valued your participation on this forum. I hope to enjoy your company for many years to come.

After diligently spending at least two minutes Googling "Ellie Holman", I now feel eminently qualified to offer expert opinion on the topic.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brit-mum-ellie-holman-locked-13118728—The Mirror seems to think "Doctor" Holman is a tragic victim of Middle Eastern depravity and narrow-mindedness. Ironically, this article is (unintentionally, I'm sure) far more an indictment of Ms. Holman than a defense. Note how those horrible UAE people had her sleep in a cell that didn't smell nice! Oh, the humanity! Oh, and where's the whole glass of wine thing? Could it be that it was cooked up out of thin air, manufactured (as they say) from whole cloth?

Here's the American version of the story, all gift-wrapped as a tragic fairy tale story with a happy ending: https://www.foxnews.com/travel/emirates-passenger-detained-in-dubai-for-allegedly-drinking-wine-finally-reunited-with-family-in-uk And before you paint Fox News with the "fake news" brush, consider that CNN had nothing on the story at all. Nothing. Didn't even move CNN's needle. So Fox News is apparently the only major US news outlet that carried the story. After thoroughly digesting that factoid, go ahead and paint Fox News with the "fake news" brush.

The Sun: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6984240/ellie-holman-dubai-arrested-daughter/ Another breathless retelling from Holman's POV. What I found funny here is that Holman claimed to have stayed awake for three whole days for fear of being raped. And that's apparently newsworthy. Not that she was raped—she was not—but merely that she claimed that she was afraid that she might be raped. Three thousand years of Western culture have culminated in this moment.

 (To be fair, The Sun did follow up with a slightly less overtly biased piece.)

Gotta say, this has all the hallmarks of a standard entitled-westerner-meets-real-world-and-cries-about-it tale.

Linking to The Mirror and The Sun.........  only shows the VERY WORST of British "news"papers even for the tabloids.  But at least you got both sides of the political views (mirror = centre left and Sun = conservative right)