BYU Honor Code. Students all afire...again!!


carlimac
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I think the Honor Code is fine.

If the students want to complain about the more aggressive and nasty tattlers, I'm right there with them, though I'm not sure what the institution as a whole can do about it. 

It's not that I'm not sympathetic about the Nosy Nellies (I still feel mildly annoyed about when I presented a paper at BYU-I to my classmates and most of my feedback was about my ankle pants that yes, were within dress code) who declare themselves the HC police, it's just that I don't know anyone is going to do about it.

I'm a teacher. All the tattling policies in the world, and yet no one has a surefire way to stop it.

And while I think it's fair in theory to discuss issues you have and have conversations with authority like adults, I roll my eyes quite deeply at those impassioned warriors of righthood who do all the rebellion they can, but are unable to transfer universities because Mom and Dad are paying and I don't want to take financial responsibility for myself.

 

Edited by Backroads
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On 4/12/2019 at 4:28 PM, carlimac said:

But what would you do if your roommate was in your room alone with her boyfriend or girlfriend for an extended period of time? What would you do? Keep quiet? Talk to the bishop? Report her/him to the HCO? Or maybe talk to your roommate and tell them how uncomfortable you are with it. If it persists after that, I'd report it. 

This very much.

When you apply to live in university-approved housing, you have a certain right to get what you paid for, so to speak. You assume your roommate is following the honor code, and it's not fair to you to have to just deal the consequences of her breaking it.

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The coverage baffles me. On its face the protest is about amending the honor code*. But the people KSL found as representative are LGBT advocates. Are they really the representatives of this movement? Or could KSL not find the real leaders to comment? Or is KSL selecting for their own narrative reasons? I read the petition and the closest to LGB-friendly wording is that the revised honor code would prohibit "premarital sex" without specifying more details - perhaps leaving the door open for only the narrowest interpretation. But without specifying more details it could be left open to maintaining the status quo in this regard. So what's the connection here? Spell it out for me KSL!

 

*see next post

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4 hours ago, Backroads said:

I think the Honor Code is fine.

If the students want to complain about the more aggressive and nasty tattlers, I'm right there with them, though I'm not sure what the institution as a whole can do about it....

From some of the complaints I've read, it seems the HCO is wanting and expecting students to tattle; and you can get into trouble yourself if you don't tattle, even if you say you don't know anything.

M.

Edited by Maureen
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Of interest...but not BYU

https://honor.fas.harvard.edu/honor-code

https://honor.fas.harvard.edu/faq?page=1

Quote

The Honor Code is Harvard College’s statement of academic integrity. Commitment to the Honor Code will be demonstrated through an Affirmation of Integrity, that students will be periodically asked to review and sign.  

BYU is not the only college to have an honor code.  Many Universities also have honor codes, including some of the most respected ones in the US.  They may have different rules than the BYU Honor code, but an honor code is not necessarily something one can avoid by not going to BYU.

If one does not want to abide by a certain universities honor code...they probably should try to go elsewhere.

On the otherhand, these types of students and church members DID get caffeinated drinks allowed on BYU campus finally, so who knows how far they'll be allowed to go with their complaints and such.

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Just now, mordorbund said:

On its face the protest is about amending the honor code.

As outlined in the petition:

Quote

To clarify, this advocates for a SELF reported "On My Honor" code based on LDS standards that refrains from the following:

  • Breaking of the law
  • Premarital Sex
  • Alcohol or drugs
  • Cheating

It does not advocate for a dictated code that enforces weird rules like;

  • No beards or long hair
  • Piercings 
  • Shorts have to be knee-length or longer
  • Encouraged tattling

Using that as an outline, here's how it measures up to the current honor code:

Breaking the law:

Quote

As a matter of personal commitment, the faculty, administration, staff, and students of Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, BYU-I, and LDS Business College seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off-campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will ... Obey the law and all campus policies

Students must abstain from ...illegal substances and from the intentional misuse or abuse of any substance 

No disagreement on my part.

 

Premarital sex:

Quote

Live a chaste and virtuous life

Sexual misconduct; obscene or indecent conduct or expressions; ...  involvement with pornographic, erotic, indecent, or offensive material ...  is not permitted.

Brigham Young University will respond to homosexual behavior rather than to feelings or attraction and welcomes as full members of the university community all whose behavior meets university standards. Members of the university community can remain in good Honor Code standing if they conduct their lives in a manner consistent with gospel principles and the Honor Code.

One's stated same-gender attraction is not an Honor Code issue. However, the Honor Code requires all members of the university community to manifest a strict commitment to the law of chastity. Homosexual behavior is inappropriate and violates the Honor Code. Homosexual behavior includes not only sexual relations between members of the same sex, but all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings.

Looks good to me. Keep it. Every line of it.

 

Alcohol or drugs:

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Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse

Students must abstain from the use of alcohol, tobacco, and illegal substances and from the intentional misuse or abuse of any substance.

This should include the whole of the Word of Wisdom, not just alcohol and drugs. I don't want to wake up to Folgers in the morning. I don't want to be offered tea to calm my nerves. I would rather my helpful roommate advise me to go to bed earlier rather than offering me some of his coffee.

 

Cheating

Quote

Be honest

Specific policies embodied in the Honor Code include (1) the Academic Honesty Policy

Glad they want to keep this, but how realistic is self-reporting in this case?

 

No beards or long hair; piercings; shorts have to be knee-length or longer

Quote

Observe Dress and Grooming Standards

Specific policies embodied in the Honor Code include ... (2) the Dress and Grooming Standards

The dress and grooming of both men and women should always be modest, neat, and clean, consistent with the dignity adherent to representing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any of its institutions of higher education.

Modesty and cleanliness are important values that reflect personal dignity and integrity, through which students, staff, and faculty represent the principles and standards of the Church. Members of the BYU community commit themselves to observe the following standards, which reflect the direction of the Board of Trustees and the Church publication For the Strength of Youth. The Dress and Grooming Standards are as follows:

Men

A clean and well-cared-for appearance should be maintained. Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, revealing, or form fitting. Shorts must be knee-length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extreme styles or colors, and trimmed above the collar, leaving the ear uncovered. Sideburns should not extend below the earlobe or onto the cheek. If worn, moustaches should be neatly trimmed and may not extend beyond or below the corners of the mouth. Men are expected to be clean-shaven; beards are not acceptable. Earrings and other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

Women

A clean and well-cared-for appearance should be maintained. Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting. Dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee-length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extremes in styles or colors. Excessive ear piercing (more than one per ear) and all other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

I'm fine with scrapping most of this if the student body so desires. The only thing I would want to keep is some sort of a dress standard that would cover the garment whether that covenant has been made or not.

Encouraged tattling / self-reporting

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Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code

Violations of these standards [the Residential Living Standards outlined under Curfew] may be reported to the Honor Code Office, 4440 WSC, (801) 422-2847, or the Off-Campus Housing Office, (801) 422-1513.

Huh, looks the honor code itself doesn't encourage tattling except for the housing violations. Instead, classmates encourage each other to comply. That is, if dude's shorts are too short, HC says classmate should say "hey man, no one wants to see that." And if roommate pops open a fresh bottle of cappuccino, roommate should say "let's not have any of that". But if dude has lady friend over too late or in the room, roommate "may" call it in.

Personally, I think the standard should start with "encourage" and then escalate if unresolved. I assume goodwill among those who have signed on their honor, but if there's a counter-culture pattern for things we've both agreed should be part of the BYU culture, then you bet I'll tattle. I would like to see this sort of standard encouraged more as part of the culture, but I'm not sure how to go about it.

Additionally, I'll admit that there was this notion when I attended that there was a rat-on-your-roommate culture, but in the conversations I had with people no one could pinpoint where the idea was coming from (there was a rumor that the previous year a letter had been circulated, but no one seemed to have a copy).

Enforcement / repentance / appeal

Didn't quote this earlier, but there's a section in the petition on how violators are handled.

Quote

As a church that has Christ at the center of it, its school "BYU" should be loving and accepting of those that meet its rigorous academic qualifications while understanding that not everyone has the same moral, health and grooming standards and that 18-22 year old kids will make mistakes (big shocker right ;-). Students should not be tattled on, judged or expelled, they should be given the trust that the school will help them and that they can confide in their ecclesiastical leaders to try and work through any issues. Forgiveness should be at the core of the honor code as that is what Christ preaches and provides to all who earnestly seek it, why should BYU be any different?

For you information, this is the current standard:

Quote

Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU. The term "good Honor Code standing" means that a student's conduct is consistent with the Honor Code and the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.... Further, a student is not in good Honor Code standing ... if the Honor Code Office has placed a "hold" on the student's records.

When the Honor Code Office receives reports of misconduct prior to a prospective student's admission or readmission, those reports are referred to the Admissions Office for appropriate action. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of student misconduct after admission or readmission, but before registration for classes, the Honor Code Office typically notifies the student, indicating that a "hold" will be placed on the student's registration if the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the Honor Code Office by a specified date. The Honor Code Office also reserves the right to place a "hold" on the record of any student based on reports of student misconduct prior to notifying the student.

Violations of the Honor Code may result in actions up to and including separation from the university.Students are required to be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU.

The decision to withdraw an ecclesiastical endorsement or to deny a Continuing Student Ecclesiastical Endorsement may be appealed through appropriate ecclesiastical leaders only. As a matter of practice, BYU does not intervene in ecclesiastical matters or endorsements. However, a student may petition the Dean of Students Office to allow an exception to the ecclesiastical endorsement requirement. As part of the petition, the student must (i) complete an Application for Exception to Policy (this form may be obtained from the Dean of Students Office); (ii) prepare a written statement outlining the reasons why the university should allow an exception; and (iii) within ten business days of receiving notice that the ecclesiastical endorsement has been withdrawn or that a Continuing Student Ecclesiastical Endorsement has been denied, submit the completed application and relevant statements to the Dean of Students Office for consideration.

When considering the petition, the dean of students will determine whether the student has observed and continues to observe the standards of the Honor Code or has demonstrated other sufficiently compelling grounds to warrant an exception to the university's ecclesiastical endorsement requirement. The dean of students will not review the ecclesiastical leader’s decision to withdraw or deny endorsement or the process for reaching that decision. The dean of students and other university officials will not discuss confidential matters with the student's present or former ecclesiastical leaders unless the student voluntarily signs a release allowing that communication. The dean of students may also choose to personally interview the student, who may further explain the circumstances which might justify an exception to the ecclesiastical endorsement requirement. The student bears the burden of persuasion that he or she should be considered to be in good Honor Code standing, notwithstanding the lack of an ecclesiastical endorsement. The dean of students' decision regarding the petition will be reviewed by the vice president of student life if requested by the student. The decision by the vice president of student life is final.

The Admission Policy provides a separate Application for Exception process for applicants who cannot obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement in support of their application for admission to the university.

While it is true that "not everyone has the same moral, health and grooming standards," everyone who signed the honor code agreed to the same standards before becoming part of the BYU culture. It is also true that "18-22 year old kids [sic - probably meant "adults"] will make mistakes", and if that mistake or error is significant enough it does warrant judgment and sometimes even expulsion. Of course, not everything is deserves expulsion, but the current honor code office looks like it's intended to help students (just as the petition asks) and forgive (through resolution and appeal).

As for the ability for students to "confide in their ecclesiastical leaders to try and work through any issues," officially "BYU does not intervene in ecclesiastical matters or endorsements." That said, I recognize the tight coupling between student wards and the University. I could see two ways that confessing a Word of Wisdom violation to your bishop would endanger your enrollment next semester: 1) the bishop calls the honor code office and tells them you're in violation. I'm not sure how BYU would handle that*. and 2) the bishop refuses to sign your ecclesiastical endorsement. In that case you follow the appeals process and if he's being unreasonable it should come out in the wash.

* Never mind. I looked it up. "The Honor Code Office does not take reports from bishops concerning members of his ward; this privileged relationship is protected. Therefore, the Honor Code Office must first obtain a signed Release of Information Waiver from you before information is discussed with your bishop. An exception to this is in the event of a safety or security risk." Looks like they'll silence him.

I also saw that it looks like they try to build trust in the erring student so they can forgive, so..... petition unnecessary? "The vision of the Honor Code Office is to assist the BYU Community in their individual effort to emulate the Savior by honoring their commitment to the principles of the Honor Code. Throughout this process, we hope to provide opportunities for each student to take responsibility, be accountable, and demonstrate progress. It is expected that this process of change will lead to greater growth opportunities for both personal and professional success, a deepened commitment to BYU and the Honor Code, and a strengthened testimony of our Savior Jesus Christ."

"After all applicable information has been gathered, the assigned counselor, in consultation with the Honor Code Director, will make a recommendation. This recommendation may include educational conditions, loss of good Honor Code standing, or time away from the University if appropriate. After a decision has been made, the Honor Code Office will contact you to schedule a follow up meeting to discuss the recommended action."

Also, I was going to let this slide but it bugs me too much: "As a church that has Christ at the center of it, its school "BYU" should be loving and accepting of those that meet its rigorous academic qualifications." With Christ at the center, we should expect a University with a discipleship culture.

 

This part of the petition merits its own attention:

Quote

If the code is updated there will be no need for the Honor Code Office, students will finally be able to act REAL and LEARN valuable lessons in a loving environment without looking over their shoulders in fear that someone is judging them or going to rat them out. 

If the REAL YOU is a person who violates the honor code, I think the honor code is probably the best thing for you. Specifically, if the REAL YOU would break the law; or the law of chastity; or the word of wisdom; or cheat your way through school; or look for loopholes in living the gospel of Jesus Christ, then you should thank God you have a community influencing you to stay on the covenant path. As for the other part of the honor code, are you saying the REAL YOU would rather wear shorter shorts, grow a beard, and stay out later? What does that even mean?

As for LEARNing valuable lessons, I hope you don't mean you would rather learn these lessons by breaking the law, or the law of chastity, or the word of wisdom, or through cheating, or through slacking in your discipleship. A person needs learn valuable lessons when working with a table saw, but those lessons are better learned when working with a handsaw and a pocket knife. As above, if you want to learn these lessons by growing out your sideburns, have at it but I don't know how valuable that is as a life lesson.

 

Items they missed, but KSL says is a part of it: curfew

Quote

As stated in the Honor Code, Brigham Young University is committed to providing a learning atmosphere consistent with the principles of the Church. The university is likewise committed to creating such an atmosphere for students residing on and off campus and between semesters. To achieve this, BYU has established living standards to help students learn some of the high ideals and principles of behavior expected at Brigham Young University. Therefore, the university requires students to adhere to the following applicable standards:

Housing

All single BYU undergraduate students who are not residing with their parents must live in university on-campus or university-contracted, sex-segregated housing unless specifically excused in writing by the Off-Campus Housing Office.

Visiting Hours

Helaman Halls

Visitors of the opposite sex are permitted in the lobbies but not in the bedroom area, except during an established open house, at which times room doors must remain open. Lobby visiting hours begin after 8:00 a.m. and extend until 12:00 midnight, Saturday through Thursday. On Friday night, lobby visiting hours extend until 1:30 a.m.

Heritage Halls

Visitors of the opposite sex are permitted in the lobbies and apartment kitchens but not in bedrooms or bathrooms. Lobby visiting hours are from 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 midnight daily, Saturday through Thursday, and extend until 1:30 a.m. on Fridays. Apartment visiting hours are from 9:00 a.m. to 12:00 midnight Saturday through Thursday and extend until 1:30 a.m. on Friday.

Off-Campus Visiting Hours, Wyview Park, and Foreign Language Student Residence

Visitors of the opposite sex are permitted in living rooms and kitchens but not in the bedrooms in off-campus living units, Wyview Park, and the Foreign Language Student Residence. The use of the bathroom areas by members of the opposite sex is not appropriate unless emergency or civility dictates otherwise, and then only if the safety, privacy, and sensitivity of other residents are not jeopardized. Visiting hours may begin after 9:00 a.m. and extend until 12:00 midnight. Friday night visiting hours may extend until 1:30 a.m. Landlords may establish a shorter visiting period if proper notice is given to students.

Guests

All guests of students must comply with the Residential Living Standards while on the premises of university-contracted housing. Students are expected to help their guests and other residents understand and fulfill their responsibility under the Residential Living Standards and the Honor Code. Approval forms must be submitted for all guest requests, and are available from hall advisors and area offices. Approved guests may stay a maximum of three nights.

I'm still on board with this. I would just mention to KSL that this is something of a reverse-curfew. Students don't have to be back in their rooms by midnight, they just can't be hanging out in other approved housing at that hour. Feel free to spend the night in the Clyde building.

And that brings me to what I would object to: closing the CS labs at midnight. You know what, nevermind. That's not part of the honor code, so I'll let Andy Rooney stew silently.

 

Items they missed: culture

Quote

Use clean language

Respect others

All students are required to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with the Honor Code. In addition, students may not influence or seek to influence others to engage in behavior inconsistent with the Honor Code.

... disorderly or disruptive conduct; participation in gambling activities;and any other conduct or action inconsistent with the principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Honor Code is not permitted.

Difficult to identify what's a clear violation and what isn't (except gambling activities), so I could see why it might not be enforceable and why the petition didn't call it out specifically. I can take it or leave it. Except the "do not influence" evilly portion. Let's keep that.

 

Items they missed: Ecclesiastical endorsement

Unless this falls under the self-reporting, this was also missed.

Quote

Participate regularly in church services

Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing. Further, a student is not in good Honor Code standing if his or her ecclesiastical endorsement has either lapsed or has been withdrawn.

... all enrolled continuing undergraduate, graduate, intern, and Study Abroad students are required to obtain a Continuing Student Ecclesiastical Endorsement for each new academic year. Students must have their endorsements completed, turned in, and processed by the Honor Code Office before they can register for fall semester or any semester thereafter. To avoid registration delays, endorsement should be submitted to the Honor Code Office by March 15. Those applying to BYU should use the new-student Admissions Application Part 3 endorsement and submit to Admissions, D-155 ASB.

LDS students may be endorsed only by the bishop of the ward (1) in which they live and (2) that holds their current Church membership record.

Non-LDS students are to be endorsed by (1) the local ecclesiastical leader if the student is an active member of the congregation, (2) the bishop of the LDS ward in which they currently reside, or (3) the nondenominational BYU chaplain.

Former LDS students are not eligible to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement (See Withdrawn or Denied Ecclesiastical Endorsement below).

Requirements

Whether on or off campus or between semesters, all students are expected to abide by the Honor Code, which includes (1) the Academic Honesty Policy, (2) the Dress and Grooming Standards, and (3) the applicable Residential Living Standards. Students are required to be in good Honor Code standing to graduate.

LDS students must fulfill their duty in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, attend Church meetings, and abide by the rules and standards of the Church on and off campus.

Students who are not members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are also expected to maintain the same standards of conduct. They are encouraged to participate in services of their preferred religion. All students must be in good Honor Code standing to graduate, to receive a diploma, and to have the degree posted.

An ecclesiastical leader may withdraw a student's endorsement at any time or may decline to endorse a continuing student if the leader determines that the student is no longer eligible for the endorsement. If an endorsement is withdrawn or if a Continuing Student Ecclesiastical Endorsement is denied, no confessional information is exchanged without authorization from the student. The withdrawal of a student’s ecclesiastical endorsement automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing. Students who are not in good Honor Code standing must discontinue enrollment. Also, they are not eligible for graduation, even if they have otherwise completed all necessary coursework. Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the withdrawal of the student's ecclesiastical endorsement and the loss of good Honor Code standing. Disaffiliation is defined for purposes of this policy as removal of an individual's name from the official records of the Church.

The Admission Policy provides a separate Application for Exception process for applicants who cannot obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement in support of their application for admission to the university.

This is definitely a keeper. It's not enough to have a membership record, or even a temple recommend for that matter. This culture needs you to be a disciple today, not just once every 2 years. Conversely, if you aren't a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I want you committed to the discipleship path you've been taught. 

 

Items they missed: when and where it applies

Quote

All students, upon admission to BYU, are required to observe the standards of the Honor Code at all times, whether on or off campus.

Whether on or off campus or between semesters, all students are expected to abide by the Honor Code, which includes (1) the Academic Honesty Policy, (2) the Dress and Grooming Standards, and (3) the applicable Residential Living Standards.

I first noticed this when I was a student and had a good laugh. If students want to change the dressing and grooming standard this is the way to do it. It is against the honor code for a man to grow a beard even during summer break at his home ward! You want to organize? organize around this. Every summer grow some stubble, then call in and report yourself. Then have your friend call in to report you to. While you're at it, get members of your ward to call in and report you. Wait, there's a handful of people in your ward that attend BYU-*? Call them all in! Flood the honor code office with dressing and grooming violations. It's the summer, the University is in a bit of a lull, but the HCO is swamped! At the very least they can remove the "between semesters" clause or maybe they'll remove those other portions of the honor code that all parties agree are unnecessary.

 

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Guest Mores
On 4/14/2019 at 9:11 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Of interest...but not BYU

https://honor.fas.harvard.edu/honor-code

https://honor.fas.harvard.edu/faq?page=1

BYU is not the only college to have an honor code.  Many Universities also have honor codes, including some of the most respected ones in the US.  They may have different rules than the BYU Honor code, but an honor code is not necessarily something one can avoid by not going to BYU.

If one does not want to abide by a certain universities honor code...they probably should try to go elsewhere.

On the otherhand, these types of students and church members DID get caffeinated drinks allowed on BYU campus finally, so who knows how far they'll be allowed to go with their complaints and such.

Yes, but how many include sexual behavior as part of the code?  Don't you realize that these people demand the right to have sex whenever they want?  After all, anything between two consenting adults is a victimless crime.

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I am an expert in the BYU honor code - while attending BYU I was before the honor board 3 time and almost several other times.  I do not think my experiences brought me shame so I will provide a list:

Honor code violations:

1. Putting up a sign at the intersection by Heritage  Halls (primary on campus housing for coeds) that said "Cattle Crossing".

2. Rigging up a trap to drop hundreds of empty cans at a coed apt that was accidentally triggered by campus security. 

3. Never understood what it was because it turned out that whatever it was - I was not present at the university - whoever it was it was not me.

Things that were mitigated before going before the honor board:

1. Riding a horse on campus at what was thought to be at a dangerous speed. 

2. Participating in a mock (fake) gun battle.

3. Filling the quad at the admin building with bubbles.

4. Stealing the wagon wheel from Utah State Univ prior to a football game.

5. Wearing a wig to a final exam because a professor made a big deal about hair cuts - when there was not a problem the entire term.

6. Parking in no parking zones at basketball games.

7. Playing the wizard game at a party (Some young lady thought we were employing Satanic magic).

8. Having a picnic on a traffic island in the middle of a busy intersection at the north end of campus (back then that intersection was called the entrance exam).

9. Operating an illegal underground FM radio station.

I very much enjoyed my time as a student at BYU.  Even with all the honor code problems - I believe it is the greatest university currently on earth.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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41 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

How far does the honor code go? If I listen to Judas Priest will I get expelled? Serious question, not an insult. 

Nah it's not like that. When I was there, (which admittedly was 12 to 8 years ago) the only things that could get you into serious trouble would be LOC and WOW violations (discounting crimes and stuff of course). Even then, it depends on the specific violation. Someone out past curfew is in less trouble than someone who gets his girlfriend pregnant for example and I believe in many cases there were/are ways to demonstrate genuine repentance and lesser penalties than just expulsion. Someone correct me if I'm completely wrong, I never had to deal with the honor code office personally. I know that's surprising considering my wild and non conformist lifestyle.

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Guest MormonGator
23 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

 I know that's surprising considering my wild and non conformist lifestyle.

We're all worried about your reckless and out of control lifestyle. 

And thank you. 

Edited by MormonGator
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On 4/16/2019 at 3:57 PM, Mores said:

Yes, but how many include sexual behavior as part of the code?  Don't you realize that these people demand the right to have sex whenever they want?  After all, anything between two consenting adults is a victimless crime.

Do you have a source that draws out the libertine changes? Again, the KSL article held up the LGBT advocates but doesn't explain if or why they're representative, and the actual petition simply says the law of chastity portion will be kept.

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3 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Do you have a source that draws out the libertine changes? Again, the KSL article held up the LGBT advocates but doesn't explain if or why they're representative, and the actual petition simply says the law of chastity portion will be kept.

Some people can't take a joke.

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On 4/14/2019 at 10:15 PM, mordorbund said:

Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing.

Ok, tell me if I'm reading this right; Presbyterian A, raised in the Presbyterian Church or any other except LDS, can get an EE and attend BYU by being a good Presbyterian.  Presbyterian B, raised LDS, baptized at 8 and later, regardless of timing, converted to Presbyterian, cannot, since one of three things will have happened; name removal by request, excommunication for joining another church, or whatever bishop hasn't encouraged the first or initiated the second won't sign an EE because B isn't an active member of the ward.  In any case, B cannot attend, regardless of how well his faith and BYU's rules are followed.

IMO, this would be another case of punishing the (now adult, in this case) child for the parents' actions, since I doubt anyone can argue that a child in an active LDS household isn't under extreme pressure to be baptized, etc.  Certainly beyond any reasonable expectation of an eight year old to stand up and say "no, I believe another path is true."  It would also likely create ill will where none already exists, assuming B wasn't substantially resisted in conversion by others.

I wouldn't expect such a situation to be very common, but not unheard of either; perhaps B is respecting, to the extent that his faith allows, his parents' desire to see him follow the normal path of a LDS young adult by attending BYU.  Perhaps he has siblings attending and wants to spend that time near them.  He could want to attend for as many reasons as any other non-LDS potential student.  Is it then right to turn him away for a decision effectively made for him a decade or more earlier?

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