Emmanuel Goldstein

Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris Burned Down

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18 minutes ago, unixknight said:

As of now they're still hoping to save parts of the structure, as well as artifacts form within.

Yeah...paint me highly skeptical of being able to save any significant part of a 600-year-old structure damaged by fire, and being able to restore it to a usable condition while meeting modern fire and other safety codes. Didn't work so well with the Provo Tabernacle. Maybe, as in Provo, they can save parts of the original shell and basically rebuild it from the inside, with updated safety infrastructure while keeping the original outer shell.

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7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Yeah...paint me highly skeptical of being able to save any significant part of a 600-year-old structure damaged by fire, and being able to restore it to a usable condition while meeting modern fire and other safety codes. Didn't work so well with the Provo Tabernacle. Maybe, as in Provo, they can save parts of the original shell and basically rebuild it from the inside, with updated safety infrastructure while keeping the original outer shell.

(Sorry to nitpick... closer to 800 years.)

I suspect that will be the case, if the stone façade can stand without the structure holding it up.  The problem isn't just the wooden timbers, but the iron in the structure losing its strength from the heat.  

This is a loss for us too.  I once heard a story in which one of the Apostles commented that one day (during the Millenium?) all such structures would be converted into Temples.  This was always the one I pictured.  I don't know if that story is true, but it was a comforting thought.

Edited by unixknight

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Saving the building is looking less likely, the spire has collapsed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris-france-landmark-live-news

It would be a travesty if the building can not be restored.  In the case of such historic artifacts, the building regs are not always as closely monitored as with a new build, especially when of such national importance and a religious icon

 

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I was there last year.  I have two thoughts.  First; is that those that saw the sacred nature of what the building symbolized - It is a sad day and I mourn with them.   Second - those that thought it was a historical structure to be exploited (which seem to be a majority of those there when I visited) - I am not as sympathetic. 

 

The Traveler

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It's symbolic of something much deeper. Christianity is in total collapse in Europe and no one in Europe seems to care. One of my dearest friends works for a French oil and gas company in the states. She said that no one in office is terribly upset by this. No one seems to care except the Americans. 

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@MormonGator I have lots of friends in UK who are very upset by this, and mostly its non members I have had comments from.  Its sickening how quickly fire can destroy what took over 200 years to build.  Every time I have visited I have been struck by the symbolism and how my students react in a reverent manner despite not being from religious backgrounds.  Maybe those closest to it take it forgranted and treat sacred things more casually (reminds me of a conference talk ^_^)

Christianity has been in disrepair for so long in Europe, but those who cling to their faith are special people. I was shocked when I lived in the US how much easier it is to talk about religion and how often the topic comes up in comparison to the UK

Edited by KScience

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28 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's symbolic of something much deeper. Christianity is in total collapse in Europe and no one in Europe seems to care. One of my dearest friends works for a French oil and gas company in the states. She said that no one in office is terribly upset by this. No one seems to care except the Americans. 

The more potent symbolism will be in whether they restore it, stabilize its remains as a monument (like that church in Hiroshima)—or rebuild a community center or interfaith structure/mosque on the site.

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Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

The more potent symbolism will be in whether they restore it, stabilize its remains as a monument (like that church in Hiroshima)—or rebuild a community center or interfaith structure/mosque on the site.

Agree, since the revolution Christianity in France has been in a long, slow collapse. With the rise of Islam and political correctness, who knows what'll be built next? 

13 minutes ago, KScience said:

@MormonGator I have lots of friends in UK who are very upset by this, and mostly its non members I have had comments from.  Its sickening how quickly fire can destroy what took over 200 years to build.  Every time I have visited I have been struck by the symbolism and how my students react in a reverent manner despite not being from religious backgrounds.  Maybe those closest to it take it forgranted and treat sacred things more casually (reminds me of a conference talk ^_^)

 

Good. That makes me feel better. 

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I once read a column (or maybe just a comment) that the devastation and "lost generation" of WWI and the horrors of WWII in France led directly to a widespread loss of faith and belief in God, not only in France but throughout Europe. I think this is vastly oversimplified, but I don't doubt that the two unspeakably brutal world wars likely served as a catalyst to hasten the atheism that was already growing fashionable in Europe by the end of the 19th century. Even in Italy, the seat of Roman Catholicism, I found (thirty-plus years ago) that many people were cultural Catholics only, and that their nativist pride had much more to do with the art, architecture, music, and glorious history associated with Catholicism than with religion itself. So if many Europeans react with a "ho-hum" or a "tough luck" to news of the loss of Notre Dame de Paris, I guess that's just part of the attitude of modern-day Europe.

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2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The particularly interesting facet here is that IIRC, the Catholic Church doesn’t own Notre Dame; the French government does—with the Church basically having a sort of perpetual grant of use.

The Roman Catholic Church seems not to centralize its worldwide ownership of things. The total holdings of the RC Church must be far in excess of $100 billion, maybe ten times that amount (or more), but it's not as if the Vatican controls that much wealth. It does not. I might be wrong, but I gather it's common in Europe for such very old cathedrals to belong, not to the Catholic Church or a local representative of the Vatican, or even any group loyal to Rome (e.g. something like the Franciscan monks), but to the local government. Very interesting. Pretty sure such an ownership model would not work for the Church of Jesus Christ, at least not the way we have things structured today.

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14 minutes ago, Vort said:

I once read a column (or maybe just a comment) that the devastation and "lost generation" of WWI and the horrors of WWII in France led directly to a widespread loss of faith and belief in God, not only in France but throughout Europe. I think this is vastly oversimplified, but I don't doubt that the two unspeakably brutal world wars likely served as a catalyst to hasten the atheism that was already growing fashionable in Europe by the end of the 19th century. Even in Italy, the seat of Roman Catholicism, I found (thirty-plus years ago) that many people were cultural Catholics only, and that their nativist pride had much more to do with the art, architecture, music, and glorious history associated with Catholicism than with religion itself. So if many Europeans react with a "ho-hum" or a "tough luck" to news of the loss of Notre Dame de Paris, I guess that's just part of the attitude of modern-day Europe.

I'm not saying you are wrong, because I agree with you that it's an oversimplificaiton to say that the two World Wars led to widespread atheism. However, I'm saying that from Florida. And you are saying that from Washington. If Seattle was bombed by the Germans then thirty years later bombed by the Germans again while your brother and son died-well, you might question belief in a Deity too. 

Speaking only for the situation in France-I think the French Revolution led to modern day French attitudes towards religion. After being told they didn't have to go church anymore by the state, most people simply stopped going, even after the revolution "ended". 

Edited by MormonGator

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

Yeah...paint me highly skeptical of being able to save any significant part of a 600-year-old structure damaged by fire, and being able to restore it to a usable condition while meeting modern fire and other safety codes. Didn't work so well with the Provo Tabernacle. 

I wondered how a stone building could burn so well.  I guess others did too:

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-notre-dame-paris-burns-fast-2019-4

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36 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I suspect that the stone walls be ok, but a I wouldn’t hod my breathe out for anything else.

It sounds like there’s a lot of wooden interior bracing.  With it gone, the whole works might survive the fire but then collapse at the first strong gust of wind.  I understand that’s more or less what happened to the Nauvoo Temple.  :( 

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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My heart is broken. I've been there, and whatever else can be said about the loss of historical artifacts, which deeply saddens me as well, you could feel the faith in Christ of those who had built it, almost infused in the stone. This is a tragic loss for humanity.

Edited by Midwest LDS

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If any "good" can come out from the Notre Dame fire, it's that people of all types, from Protestant to Catholic to Jewish to Atheist to Muslim have expressed sadness about losing such a treasured landmark. I doubt that would have happened 200 years ago.

I posted that on my FB. Thought I'd share it here too. 

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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

It sounds like there’s a lot of wooden interior bracing.  With it gone, the whole works might survive the fire but then collapse at the first strong gust of wind.  I understand that’s more or less what happened to the Nauvoo Temple.  :( 

One news report here mentioned that the roof was made of 5,000 oak trees which have had 850 years to dry out. Leaders of the two main political parties here have committed Australia to making a contribution to the rebuilding and restoration of the cathedral. Some people here have reacted angrily to that saying the Catholic Church should first make reparations for all the harms arising from the clergy abuse cases before any public money is given to them for any purpose. I suspect that both the politicians who made the commitment, and the people who have reacted angrily might not have been aware that the structure is owned by the French government. 

I'm wondering now, after seeing the profound grief and sense of loss caused to this iconic structure whether similarly iconic structures will now become even more of a target for terrorists - harming the icons looks like an effective way to hurt the people. 

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22 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's symbolic of something much deeper. Christianity is in total collapse in Europe and no one in Europe seems to care. One of my dearest friends works for a French oil and gas company in the states. She said that no one in office is terribly upset by this. No one seems to care except the Americans. 

Well, French Pres thinks otherwise.

Quote

“Notre-Dame is our history, our literature, part of our psyche, the place of all our great events, our epidemics, our wars, our liberations, the epicenter of our lives,” Macron told reporters in front of the still burning Paris landmark.

“Notre-Dame is burning, and I know the sadness, and this tremor felt by so many fellow French people. But tonight, I’d like to speak of hope too,” he said, announcing the launch of an fundraising campaign.

“Let’s be proud, because we built this cathedral more than 800 years ago, we’ve built it and, throughout the centuries, let it grow and improved it. So I solemnly say tonight: we will rebuild it together,” he added.

Donations in the millions are now coming in from all parts of the world.

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8 minutes ago, Mores said:

Well, French Pres thinks otherwise.

Donations in the millions are now coming in from all parts of the world.

Good. Glad I'm wrong. Hopefully this will reignite Christianity in Europe, and like I also said on this thread, I'm very glad people of all types are coming together to rebuild the damaged cathedral.

 I think the French are viewing it more as a cultural loss than a religious one. Something close to 40% of French people are atheists, according to some polls. This was taken in 2010: 

https://web.archive.org/web/20101215001129/http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_341_en.pdf

 

 

Edited by MormonGator

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Just now, MormonGator said:

Good. Glad I'm wrong. Hopefully this will reignite Christianity in Europe, and like I also said on this thread, I'm very glad people of all types are coming together to rebuild the damaged cathedral.

 I think the French are viewing it more as a cultural loss than a religious one.

This might very well be.  But culture and religion are so closely linked that sometimes, we don't know where one ends and the other begins.  How many missionaries have heard the statement,"I was born a Catholic and I'll die a Catholic"  even when this investigator never stepped foot into a church (or cathedral) or opened up the Bible in their lives?  They say that many Catholics only go to church three times in their lives.  And two of them are when they are carried.

They certainly seem to have faith in something, though.  I don't know.

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