The Constitution: I can't think of a better argument for Homeschool


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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I disagree.

It is not the Public School System that does this nor encourage this.  It is CULTURE that does.  And it is not the Public School System that created that Culture.  It is the Modern Feminist Movement.  Proof - the difference in Public School Education between Washington State and Florida.

We both see the fruit and see that it is bad.  We wonder how to fix it.

You're looking at the branch.  I'm looking at the roots.

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13 minutes ago, Mores said:

We both see the fruit and see that it is bad.  We wonder how to fix it.

You're looking at the branch.  I'm looking at the roots.

Modern Feminism is not a branch of the Public School System root.

If you want to look at the roots here it is - Cultural Marxism.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

You have made many good points, anatess, but I have to disagree very strongly with you here. The public schools institutionally promote themselves over all other alternatives. There can be no argument on that point. The teachers' unions unabashedly denigrate homeschooling to keep jobs for their union members. Not just homeschooling, but direct parental involvement in the child's education outside the limited roles that the school has determined parents ought to play. For the vast majority of school administrators and teachers, what children learn at home is the problem with the child, the bad issue they're seeking to resolve.

Public schools are not now and probably never have been primarily concerned about educating the children. That's their raison d'être, certainly; but where the rubber meets the road, it is not Concern #1, or even Concern #2. To say that public schools don't historically (and today) encourage parental disinvolvement in student education is naive in the extreme. Even today, when "parental involvement" is the buzzword in public education, you can be sure that the schools want only a certain type of parental involvement, and that any involvement outside that narrow band is unwelcome and almost certainly prohibited on school grounds.

Yes, you've said this a lot too.

You live in Seattle.  This is what you see.  They're a bunch of regressive leftists.  This is not always true for the rest of America.  Education is still largely State Run even as the Feds try to make themselves bigger and bigger.  But the fact that Betsy DeVos is the Secretary of Education is a glaring contrary point to your broad brush claim.  Betsy DeVos is one of the main reasons Home Schooling is a part of the Florida Public Education System.

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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, you've said this a lot too.

You live in Seattle.  This is what you see.  They're a bunch of regressive leftists.  This is not always true for the rest of America.  Education is still largely State Run even as the Feds try to make themselves bigger and bigger.  But the fact that Betsy DeVos is the Secretary of Education is a glaring contrary point to your broad brush claim.  Betsy DeVos is one of the main reasons Home Schooling is a part of the Florida Public Education System.

I have to say... @Vort 's claims do not match my experience in Utah.  But I totally understand they are his.  The local cultural, and political leanings matter, in something controlled by the local political structure (aka public schools). 

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15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yes, you've said this a lot too.

You live in Seattle.  This is what you see.  They're a bunch of regressive leftists.  This is not always true for the rest of America.  Education is still largely State Run even as the Feds try to make themselves bigger and bigger.  But the fact that Betsy DeVos is the Secretary of Education is a glaring contrary point to your broad brush claim.  Betsy DeVos is one of the main reasons Home Schooling is a part of the Florida Public Education System.

 

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I have to say... @Vort 's claims do not match my experience in Utah.  But I totally understand they are his.  The local cultural, and political leanings matter, in something controlled by the local political structure (aka public schools). 

Interestingly, my daughter-in-law just completed a year of teaching in the second grade in Provo. At the beginning of the school year, she took a dim view of homeschooling. After only one year of teaching elementary school—in Provo, Utah, remember—she was so shocked and disillusioned by what she saw among her fellow teachers and the administrators that she is now more insistent on homeschooling her children than her husband is. She loved her students, and she loved teaching, but she was appalled by how the school system works. So it's not just me, and it's not just Washington state.

I also don't get how homeschooling can be considered "a part of the Florida Public Education System." Pretty much by definition, homeschooling is not public education.

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Blue states barackobama won in 2012 are more educated than red states

Something to consider in the mix there.

Quote

States that voted for Democrat Barack Obama in the 2012 presidential election have, on average, better high school and college graduation rates than states that supported Republican Mitt Romney, according to U.S. Census data.

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The data shows that that blue states rank 2.2 percentage points higher on average than red states.

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All of the top 15 most college-educated states—and only 3 of the bottom 15—are blue. The most educated red state? Kansas, where 30% of the population holds a college degree.

 

 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Unless you’re saying less-educated people should have no right to self-government, I really don’t know what you’re driving at here.  

That old Buckley saw about being governed by the first two thousand names in the phone directory rather than the first two thousand names in the Harvard faculty directory, also seems appropriate.

Also (and this is may be a stale observation at this point), but regarding the constitution being difficult to interpret and leftist and rightist approaches possibly being equally valid—there are many political issues where this is the case; but as it pertains to the US Constitution, the assertion is largely poo.  Folks with a decent command of the English language and basic proficiency in classical and western history can get a reasonably clear idea of what it means; and human nature doesn’t really change all that much over time.  Varying “interpretations” don’t usually come out of genuine bewilderment; they come out of a subset of people whose core values are different in some way from those of the document’s authors and, therefore, want the document to say something other than it says (but can’t muster the political will to get the document amended because a critical mass of the country hasn’t bought into their novel value system and still thinks the framers were pretty much right).  

It’s like a guild of lead dealers who try to re-define the words “yellow” and “shiny” to mean “dull” and “grey”, in hopes that they can sell their product for the same price that gold commands; and hire a bunch of college professors to publicly split hairs over concepts like “color” and “weight” and “luster” in hopes that society will degenerate into a sort of metallic nihilism.  No, dummies.  We all knew what lead and gold were before you guys bought off the dictionary industry; and even now, we can still tell the difference between gold and lead, and it’s not a close call.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Unless you’re saying less-educated people should have no right to self-government, I really don’t know what you’re driving at here.  

That old Buckley saw about being governed by the first two thousand names in the phone directory rather than the first two thousand names in the Harvard faculty directory, also seems appropriate.

Also (and this is may be a stale observation at this point), but regarding the constitution being difficult to interpret and leftist and rightist approaches possibly being equally valid—there are many political issues where this is the case; but as it pertains to the US Constitution, the assertion is largely poo.  Folks with a decent command of the English language and basic proficiency in classical and western history can get a reasonably clear idea of what it means; and human nature doesn’t really change all that much over time.  Varying “interpretations” don’t usually come out of genuine bewilderment; they come out of a subset of people whose core values are different in some way from those of the document’s authors and, therefore, want the document to say something other than it says (but can’t muster the political will to get the document amended because a critical mass of the country hasn’t bought into their novel value system and still thinks the framers were pretty much right).  

It’s like a guild of lead dealers who try to re-define the words “yellow” and “shiny” to mean “dull” and “grey”, in hopes that they can sell their product for the same price that gold commands; and hire a bunch of college professors to publicly split hairs over concepts like “color” and “weight” and “luster” in hopes that society will degenerate into a sort of metallic nihilism.  No, dummies.  We all knew what lead and gold were before you guys bought off the dictionary industry; and even now, we can still tell the difference between gold and lead, and it’s not a close call.

One of the original premises presented on the first page of this topic was from a right wing site that in essence had key words that portrayed that it was more liberals who were uneducated than those who were conservative..

So, in light of that, this is kind of an interesting perspective (the link I posted) on education.

I see that there are different ways of seeing the Constitution.  Those who are liberal and homeschool will present it differently in interpretation than those who are Conservative and homeschool.  Some hypothesize that it is the Right that homeschools more (though I have no evidence of that...BUT...if we follow a semi logical argument made in this thread that those who homeschool have better educated children that pursue educational goals better, it would actually indicate that there is a possibility that the LEFT leaning parents actually homeschool their children more?) but how is that reflected in education reflected via the states. 

If we go back to the Constitution itself we see various disagreements and different interpretations already.  If there was no John Marshall...who knows...we may have a weaker supreme court today with no judicial review.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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25 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

If we go back to the Constitution itself we see various disagreements and different interpretations already.  If there was no John Marshall...who knows...we may have a weaker supreme court today with no judicial review.

Well, yes and no.  It’s not like average Americans debated constitutional theory in a clinical, academic vacuum.  Marbury wanted his commission to be delivered, Madison didn’t want to deliver it, they both made constitutional arguments as to why they should get what they wanted, and Marshall adopted a theory and application that coincidentally goosed his own prestige.  

But overall, with a few exceptions, the judiciary made a good show of fealty to the constitution up until around the New Deal era, when it became increasingly apparent that the judiciary was willing to openly be more results-oriented than process-oriented. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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20 hours ago, Vort said:

I also don't get how homeschooling can be considered "a part of the Florida Public Education System." Pretty much by definition, homeschooling is not public education.

It is in Florida. 

We've had School Choice since I've been looking for schools.  My oldest is graduating senior year in a few weeks, so at least 12 years now.  How it works - we have the Public School Magnet Program - that is, if you don't want to go to the neighborhood school, you can apply for the Magnet School of your choice.  Magnet Schools have specific "specialization" - for example, the Montessori.  Neighborhood Schools can be Magnet Schools (like our neighborhood school is an Agriculture magnet), but there are also pure Magnet Schools (you have to pass certain criteria to enter) like the Arts School (have to pass auditions).  Charter Schools, Virtual Schools (Florida accredited online school, used a lot by the RV-lifers), Paced Schools (the school has a flexible schedule - used a lot by Military and those that end up staying in a hospital and not in school for months at a time or those with sensory overload problems), and Home Schools are all part of the Magnet Program. 

The Magnet Program curriculum is set by the school itself but you have to pass certain regulations - yearly standardized testing from grades 3-12 in Math, Science, Lang Arts, and History to be marked in the School System as a certain grade level and eventually earn a diploma from the State complete with official transcript.  So, a lot of home schoolers and the Montessori don't do Grades (for GPA scores), so for these cases, the State uses the standardized test grade for your transcript to use for qualification into the Step Up program (you get State funding for your home school) and eventually the Bright Futures Scholarship (funded by the Florida Lotto) that gives you 120 credit-hours worth of free college at the current Community College rate.  If you want to go to a non-Community State school, you just have to pay for the difference.  You can't use Bright Futures out of State.  Magnet Schools can also compete in State Sports and Competitions and join a neighborhood school sports/academic team or jROTC if they so desire.

So, a few years back, this system received a big blow when Common Core became law.  All the Magnets including the Home School has to teach Common Core to be in the Public School System!  That led a lot of home schoolers and charters to get out of the public school system.  It took us years to fight that beast off but we finally eliminated the stupid thing this year.  That's one big reason Jeb! couldn't get a grip in Florida in the 2016 elections.  Betsy DeVos had a big part in the design of the Florida School System.  Florida was very happy to have her up there on the Federal Dep Ed.  She helped us get rid of Common Core.

Florida, of course, has terrible schools as well.  There's a lot of them even such that we don't score well in State by State ratings.  These schools get consistent F rating due to poor standardized test results, poor graduation rates, poor literacy rates, etc.  A few years back, the State decided to pull funding out of these failed schools and move funding to charters to encourage the F school engaged teachers/students to open a charter.  Parents went protesting and everything.  It was a mess.  I agreed with the State but many people thought it was making the students in those schools even more deprived or something.  I still believe pulling money instead of pouring money into F schools is the better route.

Edited by anatess2
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16 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Well, if we're going to do blue vs red... Most blue states only have a few highly-populated counties that are Blue.  The rest of the counties are Red.  And blue places like the Silicon Valley have highly educated parents educated by other states.

Anyway, these correlations are idiotic.  Just as idiotic as crime-ridden cities are Democrats.  Hello, Vermont.

Edited by anatess2
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34 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Why would you think that?  You don't want the state to fund your home school?  I thought home schoolers are all yay for that thing.  At least they do here in Florida.

Because it puts homeschooling under the thumb of the state. "Common core" is a good example of that.

As for so-called public funding, I'm in favor of that. But I'm even more in favor of not taking the money in the first place by giving homeschooling families tax credit.

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34 minutes ago, Vort said:

Because it puts homeschooling under the thumb of the state. "Common core" is a good example of that.

As for so-called public funding, I'm in favor of that. But I'm even more in favor of not taking the money in the first place by giving homeschooling families tax credit.

You can't get away from State oversight because the purpose of Public Schooling in the first place is to guarantee that your voting public can read and understand your laws.  If you're going to take the fully Libertarian view of - the State has zero oversight on whether my kid actually passed 3rd grade when he applied for a job flipping burgers at McDonald's - then sure, you can take that position.  I disagree with that under the principle that if the State allows people to vote, then I want some assurance that these people are educated enough to understand what they're voting for.

And especially if we're talking about your desire for tax credit.  I wouldn't want people taking tax credit for 12 years in home schools when after 12 years we have zero idea if that kid spent the last 12 years doing nothing else but playing Fornite.

Edited by anatess2
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On 4/19/2019 at 10:00 AM, anatess2 said:

You can't get away from State oversight because the purpose of Public Schooling in the first place is to guarantee that your voting public can read and understand your laws.  If you're going to take the fully Libertarian view of - the State has zero oversight on whether my kid actually passed 3rd grade when he applied for a job flipping burgers at McDonald's - then sure, you can take that position.  I disagree with that under the principle that if the State allows people to vote, then I want some assurance that these people are educated enough to understand what they're voting for.

And especially if we're talking about your desire for tax credit.  I wouldn't want people taking tax credit for 12 years in home schools when after 12 years we have zero idea if that kid spent the last 12 years doing nothing else but playing Fornite.

Public schools started out as community schools.  This has evolved into state schools and now federal schools.  Obviously there is a lot wrong with the USA's public schools.  But first for me is that the highest paid professionals in our education system have nothing to do with education but rather insure the school they work for qualifies for federal funding.  For me this is a problem of fucus - that there is something far more important than educating our kids and they are the most powerful influences in education.

I have no problem with funds coming from wherever into education - what I have a problem with is the strings that are attached to outside of community funding.

 

The Traveler

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