Help with an investigator question

[Queolby]

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, Queolby said:

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

The notion that God is the embodiment of some sort of impersonal primordial intellece is a false concept. The Apostle Orson Pratt was a proponent of this erroneous theological idea and President Young finally had to set him straight, making it clear to Orson that the eternal and everlasting God, who is above and before all things, is not the embodiment of an amorphous intelligent force that existed before God came to be. In 2 Nephi 2, the prophet Lehi makes it clear that God has always existed as the ultimate reality and ruling ssovereign over all things. and If this were not so nothing could exist. The only place where the fullness of the mind God can exist is within the thought processes of individual human intelligences; the mind of God cannot exist as an impersonal intelligent force outside of the human mind.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, Queolby said:

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

Your friend isn't exactly correct about the meaning of "logos": According to Wikipedia, it is "derived from a Greek word variously meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", and "discourse".^[1][2] ....Despite the conventional translation as "word", it is not used for a word in the grammatical sense; instead, the term lexis (λέξις, léxis) was used.^[11] However, both logos and lexis derive from the same verb légō (λέγω), meaning "(I) count, tell, say, speak".^[1][11][12]" 

It is important to read the term in context. The symbolic if not literal  meaning of Logos in Jn 1, is creation/creator,  which ties into Gen. 1. Both chapters open with "In the beginning." And, as explained in Gen. 1, the means by which God created was, "God said..."--i.e. God created by speaking or saying (logos *the word") and the  elements obeyed. Also God commanded, and Jesus obeyed and formed the heavens and earth,  making Jesus the creator.(the Word). 

This is made evident in verses 3-5 of Jn 1:  

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest Mores]

16 hours ago, Queolby said:

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

What's interesting here is that he's actually right.  And it is what we believe.  The only thing he gets wrong is recognizing what is literal vs. figurative.

When I say "that man is the embodiment of honor", I'm not literally saying that man is honor.  I'm saying he exemplifies the principle in his life so much that when I think of honorable men, he's the first person that comes to mind.

Remember what faith truly means in a gospel sense. It is not simply a belief.  In our deeper doctrines, it is a principle of action and power.  It was the power by which world's were created.

And as you study the Bible and the meaning of this verse, as well as the meaning (connotations) of "logos", it becomes apparent why this word was used in this context.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Mores

[Just_A_Guy]

22 hours ago, Queolby said:

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

Is your friend this particular and rigidly literalist in *all* of his scriptural readings? 

If so, you’re going to have your work cut out for you.  

If not, then the question is why he’s being so dogmatic about this particular passage.  My *guess* is that his perception of God comes from Greek philosophy and classical logic entailing arguments about the nature of matter, unmoved mover, whether God is or can truly be the greatest force in the universe, etc; and if that’s the case, one instance of scriptural exegesis won’t change his mind—he’s probably toying with you, as (in my experience) most people are when they start regurgitating Greek philosophy as a purported means of approaching the Judeo-Christian God.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[bytebear]

On 4/20/2019 at 7:35 PM, Queolby said:

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

God is a state of being, not an individual person. You could even say it is Logos, or conscienceless as he says.  Fits perfectly within LDS doctrine.  "God is that primordial intellect in its totality"  But that intellect is shared among individual beings, the Father, and the Son specifically.  And we are promised we can achieve the same state.  I think the only question is how does intellect and physical tangible beings correlate.   How do we share a common Godliness but still retain individualism?  Don't know, but it does seem to be how it works.

[Jersey Boy]

On 4/22/2019 at 12:38 PM, bytebear said:

God is a state of being, not an individual person. You could even say it is Logos, or conscienceless as he says.  Fits perfectly within LDS doctrine.  "God is that primordial intellect in its totality"  But that intellect is shared among individual beings, the Father, and the Son specifically.  And we are promised we can achieve the same state.  I think the only question is how does intellect and physical tangible beings correlate.   How do we share a common Godliness but still retain individualism?  Don't know, but it does seem to be how it works.

Some Latter-Day Saint thinkers have have adopted your idea (Orson Pratt was one of them, but President Young said Pratt was in error), but the only way you could be correct is if there was a time — or even a single moment — in all of eternity past when there was no sovereign God who was in possession of a celestial body of flesh and bone. This would mean there was a time when the only “god” that did exist was an unembodied consciousnesses (not conscienceless) that existed before any embodied God existed. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[bytebear]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Some Latter-Day Saint thinkers have have adopted your idea (Orson Pratt was one of them, but President Young said Pratt was in error), but the only way you could be correct is if there was a time — or even a single moment — in all of eternity past when there was no sovereign God who was in possession of a celestial body of flesh and bone. This would mean there was a time when the only “god” that did exist was an unembodied consciousnesses (not conscienceless) that existed before any embodied God existed. 

That's not true at all.  Eternal progression has no start and no end.  We know that God the Son went through a progression from spirit to mortal to spirit to immortal.  But that doesn't mean that God didn't exist any differently between those transitions, or that there is some kind of finite beginning to God.  Because there was a time when God the Son did not have a celestial body of flesh and bone.  The state of being of one personage is independent of the existence of God.   Both past and future. Infinite and forever.

Edited April 23, 2019 by bytebear

[Jersey Boy]

15 hours ago, bytebear said:

That's not true at all.  Eternal progression has no start and no end.  We know that God the Son went through a progression from spirit to mortal to spirit to immortal.  But that doesn't mean that God didn't exist any differently between those transitions, or that there is some kind of finite beginning to God.  Because there was a time when God the Son did not have a celestial body of flesh and bone.  The state of being of one personage is independent of the existence of God.   Both past and future. Infinite and forever.

All truth light and life issue forth from a thinking, active God of will, who is enabled to rule and reign over existence by virtue of the infinite and eternal atonement of God ; God does not issue forth from some element of unembodied truth.

Was there ever a moment in all eternity when a Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Ghost did not rule and reign over existence?

Was there ever a moment in all eternity when the reality of the atonement of Christ did not exist?

When one stops to really think through the implications of what you’re proposing, it is nothing more or less than idolitry. The living Man of Holiness is the source of all truth, law, light and life, not somebody’s notion of an unembodied collective reservoir of truth.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

All truth light and life issue forth from a thinking, active God of will, who is enabled to rule and reign over existence by virtue of the infinite and eternal atonement of God ; God does not issue forth from some element of unembodied truth.

Was there ever a moment in all eternity when a Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Ghost did not rule and reign over existence?

Was there ever a moment in all eternity when the reality of the atonement of Christ did not exist?

When one stops to really think through the implications of what you’re proposing, it is nothing more or less than idolitry. The living Man of Holiness is the source of all truth, law, light and life, not somebody’s notion of an unembodied collective reservoir of truth.

If I understand correctly, the term "God" refers to: 1) an office of the priesthood or family (similar to President and Father), 2) a state of being or characteristics of godliness (similar to perfect love, truth, light, etc.), 3) a person who holds the office God and who has achieved the godly state of being, and 4) a group of people who are gods (i.e. the godhead). 

If so, then perhaps you and @bytebear are, in your own ways, both right.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jersey Boy]

22 hours ago, wenglund said:

If I understand correctly, the term "God" refers to: 1) an office of the priesthood or family (similar to President and Father), 2) a state of being or characteristics of godliness (similar to perfect love, truth, light, etc.), 3) a person who holds the office God and who has achieved the godly state of being, and 4) a group of people who are gods (i.e. the godhead). 

If so, then perhaps you and @bytebear are, in your own ways, both right.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Orson Pratt’s mistake is that he believed there is God above all other Gods, and his supreme God above all other Gods is supposedly an infinitely vast universal reservoir of uncreated awareness and truth. Conversely, President Young testified that the God above all other Gods is a celestialized human being. The idea that unembodied light and truth preexist the living human God of flesh and bone is a false concept because it countenances the notion that there may have been a time when an embodied God of flesh and bone didn’t exist, and that there is a first cause that preexists and is of more essential and fundamental importance than the God of flesh and bone whom we worship.

The scriptures make it abundantly clear that the embodied God is the source of all truth, law, light and life and, in fact, he testifies that he IS the truth, the law, the light and the life, and that all law, truth, light and life emanate FROM HIM.The tabernacled God was not willed into existence by unembodied intelligent elemental matter. In other words, if we were to view this controversy as a chicken and the egg conundrum, it’s the embodied God who creates all things, not impersonal primeval elements.

The reason why this is so difficult to grasp is because one must come to realized that there never was a time in all eternity when there wasn’t a tabernacled God of flesh and bone who rules in the heavens. The hymn ‘If Ye Could Hie to Kolob’ helps us to begin to understand this greatest miracle of all miracles, and it is that there never was a single moment in all of eternity when the glorious God of flesh and bone didn’t exist. As the hymn says, if it were possible to travel into the past at speeds unimaginably faster than the speed of light, and if one were to spend an endless eternity continuing backward into time and space at that speed, he would discover that there never was a time when the tabernacled Man of Holiness didn’t exist. The Book of Mirmon’s ‘one eternal round’ also helps us to begin to understand these things, because  it suggests if one were to travel backward into time and space far enough, he would eventually wind up right back where he started from, and where he started from is an existence ruled over by a tabernacled God.

It’s understandable and to be expected that some deep thinking Latter-Day Saints would try to discover a first cause that existed before the living God of flesh and bone because, after all, the King Follett Discouse, and scriptural passages like those found Doctrine and Covenants 93, teach us that we can become like the tabernacled God who existed from eternity to eternity. But the important point to remember here is that there never was a time when the glorious God of flesh and bone, who rules and reigns over all things, didn’t exist, and that he is the ultimate source of all truth, law, light and life, and that these things issue forth FROM HIM, not from impersonal foundational elements. Therefore, if we do eventually obtain the fulness of eternal life and become like the Father and the Son, it will occur by virtue of the atonement of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit, power and authority of the Father and the Son. Our perfection will not be made possible through the will of intelligent impersonal element. For all eternity, the only way the sons and daughters of God have been enabled to become like God is through the power of tabernacled God of flesh, which power is bestowed by virtue of the infinite and eternal sacrifice and resurrection of the Holy Messiah. Their is no other way...

Similarly, there never was a time when there was no Christ and there never was a time when there was no infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Christ. For as the prophet Lehi testifies in 2 Nephi 2, the only way anything at all can exist is by virtue of the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

Brigham Young said it’s not possible to fully understand these great mysteries of eternity while we’re in this fallen state, but he promised that one day we will be able to comprehend the everlasting eternity of God, and that when the great secret is finally revealed, it will be a source of great consolation to us.

The living God of flesh and bone is the first cause; the first cause is not impersonal intelligent element. To imagine that intelligent impersonal element is the first cause, something that preexists the embodied God, is to dethrone God by asserting that he and His Christ are not above all things, before all things, and in and through ALL THINGS. 

Finally, trying to convince a non-LDS Christian that there is something more basic, and fundamentally essential than the God whom we have been commanded worship is a fool’s errand. And trying to convince that man that intelligent impersonal element preexisted the eternal Father and the Son isn’t going to fly.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

On 4/20/2019 at 8:35 PM, Queolby said:

A friend of mine is investigating the church and I don't know how to answer one of his questions can you help me? I asked him what his number one issue was with the church. Here is what he said.

 

 

"My number one issue is this. In the Greek in John 1, the word for word is Logos, which is something like the inherent intelligibility of reality. Most people think it’s “word” as in the written word, which is Rhēma, not logos. So basically this is stating that Jesus is Logic, Jesus is consciousness, etc. But if Jesus is the inherent intelligibility of reality itself, I don’t see how he can be a bi-product of it. And really it just gets at God in general. The LDS Church think that God is an embodiment of the primordial intellect, I think God is that primordial intellect in its totality"

 

Thanks!

You do realize that Greek was not likely the native language of John.  That you and your friend are in essence discussing the translation of a translation?  I am not a legal expert (lawyer) but I do not believe such second hand evidence would be allowed in a court of law.  If someone is not willing to live covenants - that whatever is the excuse has no bearing to usable logic.  What we believe is shouted so loudly in our actions that no one ever hears our words.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

12 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Orson Pratt’s mistake is that he believed there is God above all other Gods, and his supreme God above all other Gods is supposedly an infinitely vast universal reservoir of uncreated awareness and truth. Conversely, President Young testified that the God above all other Gods is a celestialized human being. The idea that unembodied light and truth preexist the living human God of flesh and bone is a false concept because it countenances the notion that there may have been a time when an embodied God of flesh and bone didn’t exist, and that there is a first cause that preexists and is of more essential and fundamental importance than the God of flesh and bone whom we worship.

The scriptures make it abundantly clear that the embodied God is the source of all truth, law, light and life and, in fact, he testifies that he IS the truth, the law, the light and the life, and that all law, truth, light and life emanate FROM HIM.The tabernacled God was not willed into existence by unembodied intelligent elemental matter. In other words, if we were to view this controversy as a chicken and the egg conundrum, it’s the embodied God who creates all things, not impersonal primeval elements.

The reason why this is so difficult to grasp is because one must come to realized that there never was a time in all eternity when there wasn’t a tabernacled God of flesh and bone who rules in the heavens. The hymn ‘If Ye Could Hie to Kolob’ helps us to begin to understand this greatest miracle of all miracles, and it is that there never was a single moment in all of eternity when the glorious God of flesh and bone didn’t exist. As the hymn says, if it were possible to travel into the past at speeds unimaginably faster than the speed of light, and if one were to spend an endless eternity continuing backward into time and space at that speed, he would discover that there never was a time when the tabernacled Man of Holiness didn’t exist. The Book of Mirmon’s ‘one eternal round’ also helps us to begin to understand these things, because  it suggests if one were to travel backward into time and space far enough, he would eventually wind up right back where he started from, and where he started from is an existence ruled over by a tabernacled God.

It’s understandable and to be expected that some deep thinking Latter-Day Saints would try to discover a first cause that existed before the living God of flesh and bone because, after all, the King Follett Discouse, and scriptural passages like those found Doctrine and Covenants 93, teach us that we can become like the tabernacled God who existed from eternity to eternity. But the important point to remember here is that there never was a time when the glorious God of flesh and bone, who rules and reigns over all things, didn’t exist, and that he is the ultimate source of all truth, law, light and life, and that these things issue forth FROM HIM, not from impersonal foundational elements. Therefore, if we do eventually obtain the fulness of eternal life and become like the Father and the Son, it will occur by virtue of the atonement of Christ and the outpouring of the Spirit, power and authority of the Father and the Son. Our perfection will not be made possible through the will of intelligent impersonal element. For all eternity, the only way the sons and daughters of God have been enabled to become like God is through the power of tabernacled God of flesh, which power is bestowed by virtue of the infinite and eternal sacrifice and resurrection of the Holy Messiah. Their is no other way...

Similarly, there never was a time when there was no Christ and there never was a time when there was no infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of the Christ. For as the prophet Lehi testifies in 2 Nephi 2, the only way anything at all can exist is by virtue of the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

Brigham Young said it’s not possible to fully understand these great mysteries of eternity while we’re in this fallen state, but he promised that one day we will be able to comprehend the everlasting eternity of God, and that when the great secret is finally revealed, it will be a source of great consolation to us.

The living God of flesh and bone is the first cause; the first cause is not impersonal intelligent element. To imagine that intelligent impersonal element is the first cause, something that preexists the embodied God, is to dethrone God by asserting that he and His Christ are not above all things, before all things, and in and through ALL THINGS. 

Finally, trying to convince a non-LDS Christian that there is something more basic, and fundamentally essential than the God whom we have been commanded worship is a fool’s errand. And trying to convince that man that intelligent impersonal element preexisted the eternal Father and the Son isn’t going to fly.

I don't see how this is responsive to what I said--not that I disagree with what you said.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-