The "Mandela Effect"


Jamie123
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Some people are always banging on about the "Mandela Effect" - the supposed collective false memories of events that never actually happened. The name comes from Nelson Mandela, South African anti-apartheid campaigner who was imprisoned in 1962. A lot (?) of people supposedly "remembered" hearing the news that he had died in prison, and were surprised to learn years later that he had been released in 1990, served as his country's president 1994-1999 and eventually died in 2013 at the ripe age of 95. 

But I have no memory whatsoever of Mandela's "prison death". If you had asked me in the 1980s who Mandela was, I would have said something like: "a bloke in South Africa who's been in prison a long time".

And I'm pretty sure that was how everyone else saw him: I remember  as a grad student, arguments going on in the lab about whether Mandela should be freed, whether the ANC could rightly be compared with the IRA...etc. etc. There was a move by the students union to make his wife Winnie Mandela chancellor of the university: when mentioned this to my grandfather (who was a bit hard of hearing) he said "But he's in prison!"

In fact in the comedy show Only Fools and Horses, Del Boy (David Jason's character) said that something or other (I forget what) had been the case "since Nelson Mandela was in borstal" - i.e. a long time. That joke would simply not have worked if everyone thought Mandela had died years before.

(Borstal by the way was the then-term for juvenile prison.)

All this was in the run up to Mandela's release, and I do not remember any suggestion about him being dead. In prison a long time, yes. Dead, no.

I'm really curious...does anyone here "remember" Mandela dying in prison?

Edited by Jamie123
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23 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Some people are always banging on about the "Mandela Effect" - the supposed collective false memories of events that never actually happened. The name comes from Nelson Mandela, South African anti-apartheid campaigner who was imprisoned in 1962. A lot (?) of people supposedly "remembered" hearing the news that he had died in prison, and were surprised to learn years later that he had been released in 1990, served as his country's president 1994-1999 and eventually died in 2013 at the ripe age of 95. 

But I have no memory whatsoever of Mandela's "prison death". If you had asked me in the 1980s who Mandela was, I would have said something like: "a bloke in South Africa who's been in prison a long time".

And I'm pretty sure that was how everyone else saw him: I remember  as a grad student, arguments going on in the lab about whether Mandela should be freed, whether the ANC could rightly be compared with the IRA...etc. etc. There was a move by the students union to make his wife Winnie Mandela chancellor of the university: when mentioned this to by grandfather (who was a bit hard of hearing) he said "But he's in prison!"

All this was in the run up to Mandela's release, and I do not remember any suggestion about him being dead. In prison a long time, yes. Dead, no.

In fact in an episode of the comedy show Only Fools and Horses, Del Boy (David Jason's character) said that something or other had been the case "since Nelson Mandela was in borstal" - i.e. a long time. That joke would simply not have worked if everyone thought Mandela had died years before.

(Borstal by the way was the then-term for juvenile prison.)

I'm really curious...does anyone here "remember" Mandela dying in prison?

What if your memory that Mandela was never believed to be dead, is the result of socializing with other people who are well aware that Mandela wasn’t dead at the time in question?  In other words—what if your memory of always knowing that Mandela was alive, is itself an example of the Mandela effect? 😜 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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"Beam me up, Scotty" was never actually uttered by Captain Kirk or any other Star Trek character.

I have often found that "common" knowledge (and sense) isn't really that common, and things that "everybody knows" are often strangely lacking in people's memory. The "Mandela Effect" phenomenon is probably real and deserves its own name so we can identify it and talk about it, but the name itself is likely a misnomer. But people tend just to nod their heads and say, "Yep, that's right, that's how it is."

You know, it occurs to me that unethical people might take wrongful advantage of this weakness in human psychology. Here's to hoping that never happens!

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7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What if your memory that Mandela was never believed to be dead, is the result of socializing with other people who are well aware that Mandela wasn’t dead at the time in question?  In other words—what if your memory of always knowing that Mandela was alive, is itself an example of the Mandela effect? 😜 

giphy.gif

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17 minutes ago, mordorbund said:
24 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What if your memory that Mandela was never believed to be dead, is the result of socializing with other people who are well aware that Mandela wasn’t dead at the time in question?  In other words—what if your memory of always knowing that Mandela was alive, is itself an example of the Mandela effect? 😜 

giphy.gif

 

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19 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Beam me up, Scotty" was never actually uttered by Captain Kirk or any other Star Trek character.

There are a great many of those: for example...

  • Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson!"
  • Nobody in Casablanca ever says "Play it again, Sam".
  • Neither the Captain Pugwash books, nor any of the TV adaptations contain any sexual innuendos, and neither is "Pugwash" Australian slang for...urm...something not very nice. (John Ryan, author of the Pugwash books actually won damages from newspapers who claimed the stories were "filthy".)
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I believe it was in the book "1984" that George Orwell suggested that if a lie is told often enough - it will be believed to be true.  So we are back to Pilate's question "What is Truth?"

Quoting George what's his name in Steinfelt - "It is not a lie if you really believe it."

 

The Traveler

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Guest LiterateParakeet
56 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

There are a great many of those: for example...

  • Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson!"
  • Nobody in Casablanca ever says "Play it again, Sam".
  • Neither the Captain Pugwash books, nor any of the TV adaptations contain any sexual innuendos, and neither is "Pugwash" Australian slang for...urm...something not very nice. (John Ryan, author of the Pugwash books actually won damages from newspapers who claimed the stories were "filthy".)

Oh, how about ...

Never in the Word of Wisdom does it say "moderation in all things".  I mentioned that to my 16-17 yr old Sunday School class once, and they simply couldn't accept it until they looked it up.

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6 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Oh, how about ...

Never in the Word of Wisdom does it say "moderation in all things".  I mentioned that to my 16-17 yr old Sunday School class once, and they simply couldn't accept it until they looked it up.

It sounds a bit like "I do" in the marriage ceremony (the BoCP marriage ceremony that is - I have no idea how the Mormon one goes) or "money is the root of all evil" .

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5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm really curious...does anyone here "remember" Mandela dying in prison?

I think it comes form an article written a while back which stated (inaccurately) that he had died, and even included a photo of the funeral.  An error, but a lot of people were led to believe Mandela had died because of it.

I've watched a few videos on YT about the Mandela Effect and it's an amusing phenomenon to talk about.  The idea is that it can be explained by one or more of the following:

  • They've changed the Matrix, but some of us remember how it was before.
  • There's a parallel Earth, and some of us are actually from that alternate world but have been transported to this one.  Some variants of this story maintain that on the other Earth, we had a slightly different anatomy and that the Earth itself had slightly different geographical features.
  • There's another Earth on the opposite side of the galaxy.  Similar to the second item, but it holds that people have been moving back and for the between worlds.  It all ended a few years ago when the other Earth was destroyed, meaning no new Mandela Effect differences have been observed since that time.

Fun ideas, to be sure, but man,  these people are sure of themselves.  Too bad the strongest bit of evidence they are able to come up with is "I'm really really sure it was different before!!!! I remember!"

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I have two stories:

Story 1: I know someone who went through some serious PTSD and subsequent recovery.  Part of the symptoms included massively disturbing false memories.  Thing is, it was obvious the memories were false, but that didn't make them any less real.  Here's what that looked like to him: Part of recovering from PTSD is constructing a coherent narrative from before the trauma, incorporating the trauma, and continuing with after the trauma.  Problem was, the memories of the trauma kept changing.  One day he'd remember traumatic event B one way, the next day he'd remember it differently.  He remembered being victimized, but the face attached to the perpetrator kept changing.  Poor guy had a total grip on the fact that his memory was faulty, and the changing aspects were not, could not, be what actually happened.   Now, years later, he has to content himself with the knowledge that he might just never have an accurate memory of everything.  But PTSD recovery doesn't mean "everything is all fixed now".  PTSD recovery means "you have enough of your life back to live it".  

Story 2: I once witnessed a traffic accident, and gave a statement to the police.  It was not traumatic for anyone, just some busted fenders.  A year later, I got subpoenaed because one party was suing the other, and I would have to testify.  On the drive over to court, I remembered all the details I could - who was in which car, who turned, when the light turned red, etc.  Getting ready to swear an oath to tell the truth, and testify.  When I got there, one of the parties gave me a transcript of my original statement.  I was embarrassingly wrong about many key points.  I had remembered so many things wrong.  I mis-remembered who was in each car, where I was, the intersection where it happened, who turned into who, and the color of the traffic light.  In the years since, I've read about such things, and found I'm not stupid, I'm normal.  This is how human brains work sometimes.  

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Guest Mores

I recall something similar, possibly the reverse, happening in my life.  I swear I heard something happened.  And everyone told me I was wrong.  It never happened.  (which was true).  But I simply refuse to believe anyone.  They were simply uninformed about the fact.  And truly they were.  Because this continued for two or three days before it is announced (either on the news or my family or work or...) that it just happened.  It was as if I had a premonition so strong that it seemed like a memory.

This was not a matter of repeating a prediction for so long that it will eventually become true.  I recall several instances of this phenom happening in my life.  And each time, it was only a few days of insisting I heard of it before it becomes a reality.

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Guest Mores
4 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Oh, how about ...

Never in the Word of Wisdom does it say "moderation in all things".  I mentioned that to my 16-17 yr old Sunday School class once, and they simply couldn't accept it until they looked it up.

That's a bunch of teenagers.  I wouldn't be quick to inject that example when talking about adults.  (assuming that's what we're talking about).

Edited by Mores
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Guest Mores
12 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have two stories:

Story 1: I know someone who went through some serious PTSD and subsequent recovery.  Part of the symptoms included massively disturbing false memories.  Thing is, it was obvious the memories were false, but that didn't make them any less real.  Here's what that looked like to him: Part of recovering from PTSD is constructing a coherent narrative from before the trauma, incorporating the trauma, and continuing with after the trauma.  Problem was, the memories of the trauma kept changing.  One day he'd remember traumatic event B one way, the next day he'd remember it differently.  He remembered being victimized, but the face attached to the perpetrator kept changing.  Poor guy had a total grip on the fact that his memory was faulty, and the changing aspects were not, could not, be what actually happened.   Now, years later, he has to content himself with the knowledge that he might just never have an accurate memory of everything.  But PTSD recovery doesn't mean "everything is all fixed now".  PTSD recovery means "you have enough of your life back to live it".  

Story 2: I once witnessed a traffic accident, and gave a statement to the police.  It was not traumatic for anyone, just some busted fenders.  A year later, I got subpoenaed because one party was suing the other, and I would have to testify.  On the drive over to court, I remembered all the details I could - who was in which car, who turned, when the light turned red, etc.  Getting ready to swear an oath to tell the truth, and testify.  When I got there, one of the parties gave me a transcript of my original statement.  I was embarrassingly wrong about many key points.  I had remembered so many things wrong.  I mis-remembered who was in each car, where I was, the intersection where it happened, who turned into who, and the color of the traffic light.  In the years since, I've read about such things, and found I'm not stupid, I'm normal.  This is how human brains work sometimes.  

I've heard of this all the time.  And, yes, I guess it is normal.  But I have rarely had this happen to me, and never so starkly.

Of course, special circumstances (like my premonitions) notwithstanding.

Edited by Mores
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My favorite is the one about Sinbad being in a movie called "Shazam."  I was fully convinced of this one myself.

Know where it came from (in my case?)

When I was a kid I watched a cartoon show about a genie, and "shazam" was the magic word you'd say to summon him.  He had dark skin.

Later, Shaq did a movie called "Kazam"

Combine these elements into a memory stew, add a dash of years in between, and voila!  A false memory of a movie with Sinbad in it called "Shazam!"

What's freaky is how many people share the same false memory... but it's not like my own movie/TV history is unique, so it probably comes form the same place for many people.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
1 hour ago, Mores said:

That's a bunch of teenagers.  I wouldn't be quick to inject that example when talking about adults.  (assuming that's what we're talking about).

I  have gotten the same questioning look from adults as well, until I tell them, "Moderation in ALL things....so moderation in alcohol?"  Then they say, "Oh yeah . . ." 

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9 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I  have gotten the same questioning look from adults as well, until I tell them, "Moderation in ALL things....so moderation in alcohol?"  Then they say, "Oh yeah . . ." 

I knew a guy once who was convinced that Jesus said "neither a borrower nor a lender be", and built quite a serious religious argument on it. When I told him this was actually a line from Shakespeare he seemed quite surprised. But I mean Shakespeare/Jesus - they're both part of the mish-mash of cultural information that people half remember from school/church/TV etc. It reminds me a bit of a scene from Blackadder:

The Prince: (talking about Baldrick) No wait Blackadder. Perhaps this disgusting degraded creature is some sort of blessing in disguise.
Blackadder: Well if he is it's a very good disguise.
The Prince: After all did not our Lord send a lowly earthworm to comfort Moses in his torment?
Blackadder: No.
The Prince: Well it's the sort of thing he might have done.

"Moderation in all things" is pretty much exactly what Epicurus taught  - but maybe it's the "sort of thing" Joseph Smith might have said.

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14 hours ago, Mores said:

I recall something similar, possibly the reverse, happening in my life.  I swear I heard something happened.  And everyone told me I was wrong.  It never happened.  (which was true).  But I simply refuse to believe anyone.  They were simply uninformed about the fact.  And truly they were.  Because this continued for two or three days before it is announced (either on the news or my family or work or...) that it just happened.  It was as if I had a premonition so strong that it seemed like a memory.

This was not a matter of repeating a prediction for so long that it will eventually become true.  I recall several instances of this phenom happening in my life.  And each time, it was only a few days of insisting I heard of it before it becomes a reality.

Back in 1984 policewoman Yvonne Fletcher was shot dead in the street from a window in the Libyan embassy in London. A few days afterwards I distinctly remember hearing on the radio that British Intelligence had intercepted a satellite transmission from Gaddafi telling embassy staff to "cover the streets of London with blood" - but that this had not been decrypted soon enough to prevent the tragedy.

When I mentioned this to my father:

Me: (What I had heard on the news.)

Dad: "No, no, this was nothing to do with Gaddafi. It was one crazy individual acting on his own initiative".

Me: "But I heard this on the news!"

Dad: (Shaking head) "No, no, no."

Me: "Well just you wait till the news comes on again!"

Well the news did come on again, and there was no mention of any encrypted messages from Gaddafi. And I never heard anything about it again...

....until a couple of years ago when it was all over the news that investigations had "revealed" that (you've guessed it) "in 1984 British Intelligence had intercepted a satellite transmission from Gaddafi telling embassy staff to "cover the streets of London with blood..."

My theory is that I caught an early edition of the news that hardly anyone heard. In the meantime the secret services stepped in and censored the story, so it was not on the main news. After all, you don't want to advertise what ciphers you can and can't break!

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Guest Mores
42 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

My theory is that I caught an early edition of the news that hardly anyone heard. In the meantime the secret services stepped in and censored the story, so it was not on the main news. After all, you don't want to advertise what ciphers you can and can't break!

Sounds great.  But that wouldn't be likely in my scenarios.

Just so I can protect the innocent... Pretend that I had a premonition that my brother got laid off.  I called my brother to see if there was anything I could do.  He said that he had been working at the same place for 10 years.  He had no idea what I was talking about.  There were no layoffs even rumored about.

Then the following week, his company announces layoffs and sure enough, he's on the list.

Edited by Mores
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Guest Mores
13 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I  have gotten the same questioning look from adults as well, until I tell them, "Moderation in ALL things....so moderation in alcohol?"  Then they say, "Oh yeah . . ." 

Very well.

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On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:47 AM, Vort said:

"Beam me up, Scotty" was never actually uttered by Captain Kirk or any other Star Trek character.

I have often found that "common" knowledge (and sense) isn't really that common, and things that "everybody knows" are often strangely lacking in people's memory. The "Mandela Effect" phenomenon is probably real and deserves its own name so we can identify it and talk about it, but the name itself is likely a misnomer. But people tend just to nod their heads and say, "Yep, that's right, that's how it is."

You know, it occurs to me that unethical people might take wrongful advantage of this weakness in human psychology. Here's to hoping that never happens!

Of course it wasn't...

 

:beammeup:

It was Scotty, Beam me up.

30 seconds on google.

Is this the Mandela effect?

:)

Edited by JohnsonJones
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