Joseph Smith and Polygamy


clbent04
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I've been wondering lately about the claims that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy for more carnal than godly reasons.  What gives me the most pause on this topic are the claims that Joseph Smith had relations with married women and also women who were underage between 12 and 14 years old.

Does anyone have any good literature they can point me to based on an LDS apologist perspective?  Most of the apology stuff I've come across just gives me greater concern on the matter.

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4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I've been wondering lately about the claims that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy for more carnal than godly reasons.  What gives me the most pause on this topic are the claims that Joseph Smith had relations with married women and also women who were underage between 12 and 14 years old.

Does anyone have any good literature they can point me to based on an LDS apologist perspective?  Most of the apology stuff I've come across just gives me greater concern on the matter.

Fairmormon has some good stuff on it.  

First thing to rebut the claims you mentioned:  All DNA evidence regarding any offspring from "child brides" indicate that Joseph never fathered any of their children.  You'd think that if he had relations with them, then SOME of the kids would turn out to be his.  But NONE of them have been shown to share his DNA.

Most of the sealings to women of any age were "for eternity only" marriages, not earthly ones.  That meant that he was not meant to have carnal relations with any of them in this life.  And the DNA evidence seems to prove that is exactly how it happened.  So, carnal reasons?  That's a tough sell considering the available facts.

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Have you tried FairMormon.org?  I love them.  

For me, when these sorts of questions come up, I remind myself not to be ethnocentric...i.e. we can't fairly judge their actions by the values of our own time period.  For example, everyone got married younger back then, and they generally married for economical reasons rather than romance. "Will he be a good provider?" "Will she provide me a family and take care of our home?"   Where foremost in their minds not attraction (physical or emotional). 

I have ancestors who were members during that time period, and they didn't have a problem with it. I suspect they knew something I don't. 

Polygamy in general bothers the heck out of me, but gratefully I live in a different period. I base my testimony first on Christ and then on the Book of Mormon and where the church is today.  Hmmmm, I'm not explaining this well...I'm just saying I love the Lord and I know this is where He wants me to be. I love the Book of Mormon, and Pres. Nelson. I feel like those things are actually relevant to me...how many wives Joseph Smith had isn't. 

I don't know if that helps you, I understand if it doesn't, but that's my take. 

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28 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I've been wondering lately about the claims that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy for more carnal than godly reasons.  What gives me the most pause on this topic are the claims that Joseph Smith had relations with married women and also women who were underage between 12 and 14 years old.

Does anyone have any good literature they can point me to based on an LDS apologist perspective?  Most of the apology stuff I've come across just gives me greater concern on the matter.

You really need to look at Brian Hales’s work.  He wrote a three-volume examination of all known historical sources documenting Smith’s polygamy and then, with his wife’s help, distilled that into another short and very readable book called “Joseph Smith’s Polygamy” that breaks down what we do know, and what we don’t. 

Regarding the two issues you cite specifically, in a nutshell Hales’s positions are as follows:

—Joseph Smith was *not* having sex with women who were cohabiting with lawful husbands.  Sealings to married women were either platonic “eternity-only” sealings to men who the women themselves didn’t believe they could be yoked with in the hereafter, or marriages to women who had obtained a “frontier divorce” from their husbands and were no longer socially regarded as “married”.

—It is just plain a lie for anyone to suggest that Smith was sealed to anyone younger than fourteen.  One of his wives, Helen Mar Kimball, was fourteen at the time of their sealing; the sealing was done at her father’s request and Kimball herself a) hints that the marriage was never consummated, and b) lived to a ripe old age and always looked back at her sealing to Smith as a point of pride, rather than a source of exploitation. Another, Nancy Winchester, we know next-to-nothing about; other than that a Church historian around the turn of the 20th century listed her as having been sealed to Smith sometime before his death (Winchester was 15 years, 11 months old when Smith died).  Given that (IIRC) we have no record of Smith being sealed to any additional woman after 1843, it is popularly assumed that Winchester was sealed to Smith before then and that therefore she was 14 at the time of her own sealing.  The rest of Smith’s wives were older—a few in their late teens, the rest running the gamut from their twenties to their mid-fifties.

—Hales’s overall theory, based on the sealing dates (insofar as we have them—and often, we don’t)—is that after Emma’s reaction to Smith’s first plural marriage to Fanny Alger, he desisted from further sealings for nearly ten years.  When instructed by the Lord to resume them, he attempted “half-compliance” in a way that wouldn’t anger Emma by engaging in platonic “eternity-only” sealings with married women; those women’s marital statuses would have assured a jealous Emma of the chaste nature of the sealings.  When God again sends a messenger to Joseph saying that these sealings are to be “marriages” in the full sense of the word Joseph finally begins marrying thitherto-unmarried women; with a couple of “dynastic sealings” (Helen Kimball, Nancy Rigdon) along the way.

Incidentally, two future LDS Apostles were the offspring of plural wives of Smith and therefore, spiritually considered to be his children:  Orson F. Whitney (son of Helen Mar Kimball) and Heber J. Grant (son of Rachel Ivins).

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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5 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Follow up question. Was it just the RLDS church that tried being secretive about the practicing of polygamy, or did the LDS church also try to cover it up for awhile?

Depends on your time frame...  Joseph Smith was secretive about it..  And many people think part of the outrage that drove the mobs that killed him and others was based on it. (Which shows he had very good reason to be secretive about it.)

Once the church was settled in Salt Lake they were open about it.. After all no one else was around to try to kill them over it...  Until the US started cracking down on them.  Putting them in the bind of following God or following the laws of the land.  So some secretiveness was apart of that too.  Then came the manifesto.

For the RLDS I do not think secretive is the right word... I think Denial is better.  They denied Joseph Smith practiced it and blamed it all on Brigham Young.  I am not a historian... but I would guess that once they broke off the RLDS did not practice it at all.

 

 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Speaking of FairMormon...here is one of my favorite videos about polygamy. This is from Valerie Hudson Cassler. She is a convert to the church and holds a PhD in political science. 

 

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

For the RLDS I do not think secretive is the right word... I think Denial is better.  They denied Joseph Smith practiced it and blamed it all on Brigham Young.  I am not a historian... but I would guess that once they broke off the RLDS did not practice it at all.

Yes, this is true (although they are now the Community of Christ rather than the RLDS).  The denial came from Emma Smith.  She said that Polygamy was all Brigham Young's idea and that Joseph Smith never participated.  

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2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

You really need to look at Brian Hales’s work.  He wrote a three-volume examination of all known historical sources documenting Smith’s polygamy and then, with his wife’s help, distilled that into another short and very readable book called “Joseph Smith’s Polygamy” that breaks down what we do know, and what we don’t. 

Regarding the two issues you cite specifically, in a nutshell Hales’s positions are as follows:

—Joseph Smith was *not* having sex with women who were cohabiting with lawful husbands.  Sealings to married women were either platonic “eternity-only” sealings to men who the women themselves didn’t believe they could be yoked with in the hereafter, or marriages to women who had obtained a “frontier divorce” from their husbands and were no longer socially regarded as “married”.

—It is just plain a lie for anyone to suggest that Smith was sealed to anyone younger than fourteen.  One of his wives, Helen Mar Kimball, was fourteen at the time of their sealing; the sealing was done at her father’s request and Kimball herself a) hints that the marriage was never consummated, and b) lived to a ripe old age and always looked back at her sealing to Smith as a point of pride, rather than a source of exploitation. Another, Nancy Winchester, we know next-to-nothing about; other than that a Church historian around the turn of the 20th century listed her as having been sealed to Smith sometime before his death (Winchester was 15 years, 11 months old when Smith died).  Given that (IIRC) we have no record of Smith being sealed to any additional woman after 1843, it is popularly assumed that Winchester was sealed to Smith before then and that therefore she was 14 at the time of her own sealing.  The rest of Smith’s wives were older—a few in their late teens, the rest running the gamut from their twenties to their mid-fifties.

—Hales’s overall theory, based on the sealing dates (insofar as we have them—and often, we don’t)—is that after Emma’s reaction to Smith’s first plural marriage to Fanny Alger, he desisted from further sealings for nearly ten years.  When instructed by the Lord to resume them, he attempted “half-compliance” in a way that wouldn’t anger Emma by engaging in platonic “eternity-only” sealings with married women; those women’s marital statuses would have assured a jealous Emma of the chaste nature of the sealings.  When God again sends a messenger to Joseph saying that these sealings are to be “marriages” in the full sense of the word Joseph finally begins marrying thitherto-unmarried women; with a couple of “dynastic sealings” (Helen Kimball, Nancy Rigdon) along the way.

Incidentally, two future LDS Apostles were the offspring of plural wives of Smith and therefore, spiritually considered to be his children:  Orson F. Whitney (son of Helen Mar Kimball) and Heber J. Grant (son of Rachel Ivins).

@clbent04 This has been my preferred source of reading and listening on this topic as well - I have found Hale's works to be very well done and trustworthy. I listened to the audio version for free with links from this site:

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/

 

 

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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

—Joseph Smith was *not* having sex with women who were cohabiting with lawful husbands.  

Maybe.   It's hard to prove, but there is a lot of written evidence that Sylvia Sessions was in that category.   Hale kind of danced around the issue, but does talk about it.   

DNA evidence did prove that Joseph Smith wasn't the father Sylvia's child Josephine, which is the evidence Hale uses for the claim that the marriage wasn't consumated.  Saying the Joseph wasn't the father isn't proof that the marriage was never consumated.  

It appears that Sylvia did indicate to her children that she had relations with Joseph.  

It's hard to say either way.

Quote

It is just plain a lie for anyone to suggest that Smith was sealed to anyone younger than fourteen.

True, though some were under 18.  The relationship with Fanny Alger was probably consumated.  It's hard to say with Helen Kimball.  There doesn't seem to be any real evidence either way.  The main reason I think that the marriage may have been consumated is because while Helen's father Heber C Kimball was supportive of the marriage, Helen's mother was very upset about it for a long time, even though she was always a faithful member of the church.   If the marriage was only dynastic, why would she be so upset about her daughter obliging?  It seems more likely that it was because of the age difference and that the marriage really was consumated, but this is not any real evidence.  

Other Church leaders and members married much younger wives as well.  This is true in my own family history as well.  My great great grandpa was in his 50's when he married a16 year old (and had children with her).  

This won't be a popular statement, but the truth is that if the amount of men and women are roughly equal (contracry to popular belief, the number of men and women in the church was roughly equal), wide spread polygamy only works when men marry much younger women.   



 

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

[1]Maybe.   It's hard to prove, but there is a lot of written evidence that Sylvia Sessions was in that category.   Hale kind of danced around the issue, but did mention it.   

DNA evidence did prove that Joseph Smith wasn't the father Sylvia's child Josephine, which is the evidence Hale uses for the claim that the marriage wasn't consumated.  Saying the Joseph wasn't the father isn't proof that the marriage was never consumated.  

It appears that Sylvia did indicate to her children that she had relations with Joseph.  

It's hard to say either way.

[2]True, though some were under 18.  The relationship with Fanny Alger was probably consumated.  It's hard to say with Helen Kimball.  There doesn't seem to be any real evidence either way.  The main reason I think that the marriage may have been consumated is because while Helen's father Heber C Kimball was supportive of the marriage, Helen's mother was very upset about it for a long time, even though she was always a faithful member of the church.   If the marriage was only dynastic, why would she be so upset about her daughter obliging?  It seems more likely that it was because of the age difference and that the marriage really was consumated, but this is not any real evidence.  

Other Church leaders and members married much younger wives as well.  This is true in my own family history as well.  My great great grandpa was in his 50's when he married a16 year old (and had children with her).  

This won't be a popular statement, but the truth is that if the amount of men and women are roughly equal (contracry to popular belief, the number of men and women in the church was roughly equal), wide spread polygamy only works when men marry much younger women.   



 

1.  Well, Sylvia told her daughter Josephine on her deathbed that she had been sealed to Joseph when Windsor Lyon was out of the church and that Josephine was Joseph’s “daughter”—except we *know* that biologically, she wasn’t; and we know that at the same period other people were running around Utah being acknowledged as the covenant, though not biological, offspring of Joseph Smith.  Sylvia made no other statement I am aware of indicating that she had relations with Joseph Smith—it all comes back to that deathbed disclosure to Josephine.  And this is a textbook example of how when dealing with Joseph Smith’s polygamy, an isolated ambiguous statement morphs into “clear and uncontradicted evidence”, then mutating into “the weight of the evidence” before finally becoming “overwhelming evidence” and “serious historians agree” and “conventional wisdom”.  (Similarly, a Utah Church court proceeding referring to Mary Heron being “frigged” by an unidentified party during the Nauvoo days, is all the evidence we have for her being listed as a plural wife of Smith’s.)

2.  Absolutely, several were under 18; though I think reasonably informed and fair-minded people don’t get terribly worked up over sixteen-year-olds getting married in the nineteenth-century.  I also agree that as a matter of demographics, assuming equal numbers of men and women, polygamy will drive the marriage age of females down over time; and I’ve seen studies (years ago, and sadly I’ve lost the cites) suggesting that a) this was indeed the case in Utah; and b) higher conversion rates of females versus males made this sustainable for a while, but by the 1880s-1890s the disparity was reducing and that if we hadn’t stopped polygamy when we did we’d have shortly begun facing a major problem with unmarried and unmarriageable males.  You’re probably aware of the Brigham Young quotes where he basically says “for crying out loud, guys, let these girls get through puberty at least!”

Re Helen, I should note that I don’t think (nor, I believe, does Hales) that dynastic sealings were inherently platonic in perpetuity.  But in this case there does seem to have been a disconnect between what Vilate Kimball thought might happen, versus what Helen herself anticipated (“I thought through this life my time will be my own/The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,/No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,/And as the past hath been the future still will be.”)  Maybe in time Helen’s marriage to Joseph would have turned sexual, but she seems to have gone into the relationship thinking that that would not happen in the short run and maybe not at all.

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I have an unpopular belief, and that is that Fanny Alger was not a plural wife.  I believe she was accused of an affair with Smith, and that the rumor was false, and it ended up being elevated to the status of her being his first plural wife, but the timing is all wrong. One bride years before any others?  No, I think whatever went down with Alger, it had nothing to do with plural marriage.

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36 minutes ago, bytebear said:

I have an unpopular belief, and that is that Fanny Alger was not a plural wife.  I believe she was accused of an affair with Smith, and that the rumor was false, and it ended up being elevated to the status of her being his first plural wife, but the timing is all wrong. One bride years before any others?  No, I think whatever went down with Alger, it had nothing to do with plural marriage.

It’s certainly possible; but Joseph Smith has translated the OT in 1831 and had already been putting some thought into David’s and Solomon’s polygamy.  We also have a late recollection from W.W. Phelps saying that Smith had raised the prospect of polygamy with him as early as 1834. I don’t think a marriage to Alger in 1835 or 1836 is beyond the realm of possibility—Joseph had been stewing over the concept for years by then, and the Lord apparently felt that he hadn’t moved fast enough (angel with the drawn sword, and all that . . .)

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12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've been wondering lately about the claims that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy for more carnal than godly reasons.  What gives me the most pause on this topic are the claims that Joseph Smith had relations with married women and also women who were underage between 12 and 14 years old.

Does anyone have any good literature they can point me to based on an LDS apologist perspective?  Most of the apology stuff I've come across just gives me greater concern on the matter.

Not off the top of my head except Official Church History.

There are many stories and some which are founded by anti-Mormons themselves.  One of the ones that you are troubled by probably deals with Fanny Alger.  Joseph stated that the situation with Fanny Alger was not one of an adulterous nature.  Even Oliver Cowdery (who many will also point out that he talked about a dirty little affair, though at the time would probably have indicated a distasteful situation that they dealt with, not necessarily an affair as in adultery) admitted that Joseph had never said it was adulterous. 

Whatever the relationship between Joseph and Fanny Alger, it did NOT produce children (an interesting side note, for anti-Mormons that insist there is no DNA evidence of JEWISH [which does not mean Hebrew or even those of SW Asia found in SE Asia descent] descent among Native Americans, they certainly like to ignore DNA evidence in relation ship to Joseph Smith and Polygamy) nor any evidence thereof.

An alternate story is that Fanny Alger claimed that she would be happy to be merely a servant in the Celestial Kingdom wherein Joseph stated that this was nonsense.  He then was sealed to Fanny Alger.  There is no concrete evidence that there was a sexual relationship except from sources that, at the time, were contrary and against the newly budding religion that I know of.  In fact, if it were physical, then Joseph and Fanny must have gotten a rapid divorce of some sort for Fanny then left soon thereafter and eventually got married Solomon Custer.  This married couple (for time on this earth) HAD children.  They had a total of nine children.

A current LDS source of information is found here (which anti-Mormons will be quick to tell you it is full of lies or ignores other statements, but overall it is pretty complete and addresses the general origin of some of the stories that talk about Cowdery and the supposed statement he made).

Fanny Alger topic on LDS.org

One excerpt from it in that relation...

Quote

Angry investors in the society and local antagonists circulated many rumors attacking Joseph, including allegations that he committed adultery. Some of the rumors were said to originate with Oliver Cowdery, whose formerly close relationship with Joseph had become strained over a variety of matters. Some claimed Oliver heard Joseph confess to extramarital relations with Fanny Alger.11 In fall 1837, Joseph Smith confronted Cowdery about the rumor in a meeting attended by at least three others. In that meeting, Cowdery refuted the rumor that Joseph had confessed to him.12 The following April, when Cowdery was tried in Missouri for his Church membership over many charges, the high council discussed the rumors Cowdery had circulated. Joseph gave an explanation of his relationship to Fanny that appears to have satisfied the high council.13 Cowdery was excommunicated during this meeting.

 

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Guest Scott
15 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Sylvia made no other statement I am aware of indicating that she had relations with Joseph Smith—it all comes back to that deathbed disclosure to Josephine.

Of Joseph Smith also referred to her as his wife in his diaries, but of course there was no mention of the nature of the marriage.

FAIR gives the following explanation:

It appears, however, that Sylvia may have considered herself divorced from Windsor after he was excommunicated from the Church and left Nauvoo. Hales points out that "Currently, no documentation of a legal divorce between Windsor and Sylvia after his excommunication has been found. However, in the mid-nineteenth century, religious laws often trumped legal proceedings. Stanley B. Kimball observed: 'Some church leaders at that time considered civil marriage by non-Mormon clergymen to be as unbinding as their baptisms. Some previous marriages . . . were annulled simply by ignoring them.'

It's hard to say for sure, but given the statements from Josephine, there seems to be at least some evidence (but no proof) that they were physically involved, but it's really hard to say either way for sure.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Scott said:

Of Joseph Smith also referred to her as his wife in his diaries, but of course there was no mention of the nature of the marriage.

FAIR gives the following explanation:

It appears, however, that Sylvia may have considered herself divorced from Windsor after he was excommunicated from the Church and left Nauvoo. Hales points out that "Currently, no documentation of a legal divorce between Windsor and Sylvia after his excommunication has been found. However, in the mid-nineteenth century, religious laws often trumped legal proceedings. Stanley B. Kimball observed: 'Some church leaders at that time considered civil marriage by non-Mormon clergymen to be as unbinding as their baptisms. Some previous marriages . . . were annulled simply by ignoring them.'

It's hard to say for sure, but given the statements from Josephine, there seems to be at least some evidence (but no proof) that they were physically involved, but it's really hard to say either way for sure.

 

 

Do you have a cite for the Joseph Smith diary you allude to?  That’s a new one to me, I think.  

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10 hours ago, bytebear said:

I have an unpopular belief, and that is that Fanny Alger was not a plural wife. 

Fanny Alger was almost certainly a plural wife.  Even the official Church website says this:


https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/fanny-alger?lang=eng

Joseph Smith himself said this too.  Fanny's family was very proud of the marriage as well.  Eliza Snow, one of the most respected women in all of Church history also referrs to Fanny Alger as Joseph's plural wife. 

FAIR gives the following account by Mosiah Hancock who was a well respected member of the Church:

Mosiah Hancock discusses the manner in which the proposal was extended to Fanny, and states that a marriage ceremony was performed. Joseph asked Levi Hancock, the brother-in-law of Samuel Alger, Fanny’s father, to request Fanny as his plural wife:

Samuel, the Prophet Joseph loves your daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Uncle Sam says, “Go and talk to the old woman [Fanny’s mother] about it. Twill be as she says.” Father goes to his sister and said, “Clarissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Said she, “Go and talk to Fanny. It will be all right with me.” Father goes to Fanny and said, “Fanny, Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife. Will you be his wife?” “I will Levi,” said she. Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said, “Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission.” Father gave her to Joseph, repeating the ceremony as Joseph repeated to him.

In the case of Fanny Alger, it doesn't seem that the marriage could have been merely dynastic.   Historical writings show that Joseph and Fanny were married in 1933.   Eternal marrages in our Church weren't performed before April 3 1836, so it couldn't have been a dynastic sealing.  

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Guest Scott
37 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Do you have a cite for the Joseph Smith diary you allude to?  That’s a new one to me, I think.  

Yes, but it's a lot more than just Joseph's diary.  Here is one citation for the diary, but it's in other places too:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm

10 months later, on December 24th, Joseph’s journal mentions a visit to his wife, Sylvia, who was giving birth to her third child:  “Walked with Sec[retary Willard Richards] to see Sister Lyons who was sick. Her baby died 30 minutes before [we] arrived”.  Sylvia had lost two of her three children in death.  On September 18, 1843, another of Joseph’s visits to Sylvia is recorded by William Clayton, “Joseph and I rode out to borrow money, drank wine at Sister Lyons P.M. I got $50 of Sister Lyons and paid it to D.D. Yearsly.”

Beside's Joseph's diary, Hale provides a lot of documentation (actual scans of Church and marriage documents) showing the Sylvia and Joseph were married.

Our church still has official documents showing the Joseph and Sylvia were married in the Church History Library.   

Here is a scan of documentation from Joseph F Smith (though notice that there is a date error on one of the documents-1842 is correct):

887277814_churchhistory.JPG.293e08f60d8a3551db0a046866c88816.JPG

Hale goes into great detail and provides a lot of sources in his report below:

http://mormonhistoricsites.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/4-MHS_spring2008_Joseph-Smith-Sylvia-Sessions.pdf

Edited by Scott
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34 minutes ago, Scott said:

Yes, but it's a lot more than just Joseph's diary.  Here is one citation for the diary, but it's in other places too:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm

10 months later, on December 24th, Joseph’s journal mentions a visit to his wife, Sylvia, who was giving birth to her third child:  “Walked with Sec[retary Willard Richards] to see Sister Lyons who was sick. Her baby died 30 minutes before [we] arrived”.  Sylvia had lost two of her three children in death.  On September 18, 1843, another of Joseph’s visits to Sylvia is recorded by William Clayton, “Joseph and I rode out to borrow money, drank wine at Sister Lyons P.M. I got $50 of Sister Lyons and paid it to D.D. Yearsly.”

Beside's Joseph's diary, Hale provides a lot of documentation (actually scans of Church and marriage documents) showing the Sylvia and Joseph were married.

Our church still has official documents showing the Joseph and Sylvia were married in the Church History Library.   

Here is a scan of docuemntation from Joseph F Smith (though notice that there is a date error on one of the documents-1842 is correct):

887277814_churchhistory.JPG.293e08f60d8a3551db0a046866c88816.JPG

Hale goes into great detail and provides a lot of sources in his report below:

http://mormonhistoricsites.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/4-MHS_spring2008_Joseph-Smith-Sylvia-Sessions.pdf

I appreciate this; though my questions were whether Sylvia made any other statement construed as having had relations with Joseph and whether Joseph’s diaries ever referred Sylvia as his wife (as opposed to merely noting her existence as a person).  It looks like the answer to both of those questions is “no”?

In the name of pedantry, and not because I’m disputing that a sealing took place, I would note the following:

—The article you cite is awesome, though I note it dates from 2008 and Hales at that time took at face value the claim that Joseph was indeed Josephine’s biological father (the DNA analysis wasn’t done until 2016).  He has since reversed his position and notes that a younger daughter of Sylvia—conceived long after Joseph’s death—was apparently also told that she was a daughter of Joseph Smith.  http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/sylvia-sessions/#link_ajs-fn-id_9-5660.

—Similarly, the “official Church records” noted in that article are unsigned affidavits, partially mutually contradictory, that were drafted roughly twenty years after the sealing.  They hardly indicate a sexual relationship between Joseph and Sylvia.

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Guest Scott
31 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

—Similarly, the “official Church records” noted in that article are unsigned affidavits, partially mutually contradictory, that were drafted roughly twenty years after the sealing.  They hardly indicate a sexual relationship between Joseph and Sylvia.

I agree.   They do however indicate that they were indeed married.  

The only evidence (not proof) at all I can see that might indicate physical relations is the comment to Sylvia's daughter.   Again I use the word might.  

Again, it's hard to say, but it seems that there is at least some evidence that the union might have been physical.  It is possible that either the daughter and Sylvia might be lying, or Sylvia could have been not clear on the matter, but there does seem to be some evidence that the union might have been physical.

Of course, it would be impossible to prove either way and if there ever is anymore evidence, it is probably long gone by now.   I don't think we'll ever know for sure.  

When it comes to Church History, it is much easier to decipher who married who after the saints arrived in the Salt Lake Valley.  It is known with little doubt, for example, that Brigham Young had 59 children from 16 different wives.  As to the nature of Joseph's wives go, it is much more clouded when it comes to history.  

Quote

Similarly, the “official Church records” noted in that article are unsigned affidavits

Several of them were signed (and notorized).  According to the article above, the affidavits were intentionally gathered by the Church:

In attempts to refute claims made by RLDS missionaries visiting Utah that plural marriage originated with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith, LDS Apostle Joseph F. Smith in 1869 accumulated a number of affidavits. Many were recorded, signed, and notarized within the pages of four books. Other affidavits written on sheets of paper were also transcribed into notebooks. All the affidavits were designed to prove that Joseph Smith taught and practiced plural marriage.

Edited by Scott
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21 hours ago, clbent04 said:

I've been wondering lately about the claims that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy for more carnal than godly reasons.  What gives me the most pause on this topic are the claims that Joseph Smith had relations with married women and also women who were underage between 12 and 14 years old.

Does anyone have any good literature they can point me to based on an LDS apologist perspective?  

This isn't an apologetic response, this is a "look at the thing and use some common sense" response:

Just speaking bluntly and practically, you'd think if Joseph was in it for the nookie, there would be children.  Mid 1800's frontier America wasn't exactly known for having any sort of birth control available.  Abortions didn't happen in cabins (or in Nauvoo).  He and Emma had nine kids (counting the stillborn or otherwise died early), so we know he was absolutely fertile.  Emma was pregnant when Joseph was martyred for pete's sake, giving birth to David Hyrum Smith 5 months after Joseph's death.

So, Joseph and wife #1 = 9 pregnancies.   Joseph and wifes #2-50 (according to Wikipedia) = maybe three children total?  And those are just the three possibilities, we can't prove or disprove with DNA testing.  Whenever I think about this, I hear the hymn "No, the thought makes reason stare!" 

Look at the list:
Oliver Buell: (Fawn Brodie speculated he was Joseph's child) - DNA proves not related to Joseph.
John Reed Hancock and Mosiah Hancock: DNA proves not related to Joseph.
Zebulon Jacobs: DNA proves not related to Joseph.
Josephine Rosetta Lyon (Mom claimed on her deathbed that Josephine was Joseph's daughter) - DNA proves not related to Joseph.
Moroni Pratt: DNA proves not related to Joseph.

When reasoning solely by common sense, it is really, really hard to believe Joseph didn't have sex with any of his multiple wives.  Really?  None of them?  Get real.  Put 1000 dudes in a room who claim "I never had sex with that woman I married", and 995 of them are lying.   But once you factor in the absence of children - if you force yourself to be honest, that fact really makes it plausible.   Joseph was big on talking about the eternal nature of sealings, and how some things done on earth are to bless us in the afterlife.  You tell me - is it at least plausible he walked the talk, and only was spiritually sealed to these women (and couple of girls), and no really, his intentions and actions were honorable?

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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