Life extension and amortality


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Guest Scott

First of all, none of the following is doctrine and it is 100% speculation.

I have been reading a lot of books and articles on life extension amortality.   I have no desire to extend my own life on earth, but find the science behind it fascinating.  

There are scientists (real scientists, not snake oil salesmen) out there who claim that we are already only about 30 years away from modifying or programming human genes so that aging can be slowed or even stopped.   There are a lot of ethical debates on this.  Basically, the question is “should we?” rather than “can we?”.

 Currently, the natural maximum achievable lifespan is thought to be around 125 years. 

The gene that causes aging has already been isolated and identified.

Using genetic programming/modification, scientists have already been able extend the lives of lower organisms, such as worms by ten-fold.  The same scientists are claiming that they may be able to do the same for humans in thirty years.   Eventually amortality may be achieved.  Amortality means that the person would not die of old age, but can still be killed, by say a car accident.   He or she would not be immortal, since he or she could still die, but it wouldn’t be due to aging.   

My first thought it that the Lord will never allow this and that it will never be achieved.  I thought that it sounds contrary to the Lord’s plan.  I have held this belief for the last few years.

Then recently I got to thinking of it more.  What if the Lord would allow it?   What if he is allowing it?

There are many signs of the Second Coming and the start of the Millennium. 

One of them is wars and rumors of wars.   God isn’t the one who will start the wars, but he allows it to happen.   Just because God didn’t start the war, doesn’t mean that it still isn’t a sign of the Lords coming.

Another sign in that the Gospel will be taught in all nations.   Again, God isn’t the one physically doing the missionary work, that is up to men and women.

The scriptures (see 3 Nephi 28:7-9 and Revelations 21:4 for example) say that during the Millennium, that there will be no more disease, pain, or natural death.

If God allows men and women to be involved in the signs of the second coming, could this mean that men and women will also be involved bringing forth the events that eliminate disease and natural death.  Before I thought about it more and how it pertains to current goals of some scientists, I always thought that God will do that all on his own, but maybe he will let men and women be a part of it, whether the currently realize it or not. 

Could men and women themselves play and active part (in a physical sense) on bringing forth the Millennial state of men and women where their lives’ will become prolonged and there will no longer be natural death and disease?   
 

Again, I don’t know and this is just merely speculation rather than doctrine.  Still, I find the question interesting. 

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I really don’t like the phrase “does God allow ‘x’” cause that suggests that he would be actively preventing things he doesn’t want to happen... which we all know he doesn’t. It introduces a false dichotomy that brings along other false assumptions that lean us toward a more traditional and incomplete Christian view of God.

31 minutes ago, Scott said:

There are many signs of the Second Coming and the start of the Millennium. 

Sure I can see this, but to be honest, almost everything that ever happens can be seen as a “sign” for the second coming. Doesn't mean that that day is soon (relative to our own life at least).

Signs of the second coming are not meant to be seen as ways of predicting when the end of the world will be or for proving that there is a God and he will judge us. They are merely for our own reminding that the day of judgement will happen one day and we need to repent.

So yes, this could be a “sign”. But so is every sacrament meeting, every temple built, every ordinance done, every war declared and every step towards an immoral world.

39 minutes ago, Scott said:

could this mean that men and women will also be involved bringing forth the events that eliminate disease and natural death.  Before I thought about it more and how it pertains to current goals of some scientists, I always thought that God will do that all on his own, but maybe he will let men and women be a part of it, whether the currently realize it or not. 

Could men and women themselves play and active part (in a physical sense) on bringing forth the Millennial state of men and women where their lives’ will become prolonged and there will no longer be natural death and disease?   

Sure, I’m a believer in the concept of God not doing for was what we can do for ourselves (to some extent at least). And off the top of my head, I can’t think of any contradictions in this idea and the overall gospel. Perhaps man will discover some primitive form of immortality and and later he given a more complete form of it when we are resurrected.

Do i believe this is the case? No.

Would I ever bring this point you make up to anyone else ever again in conversation? Probably not.

just a somewhat interesting thought to toss about. 

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Currently, the natural maximum achievable lifespan is thought to be around 125 years. 

The gene that causes aging has already been isolated and identified.

What if the Lord would allow it?

I don't see anything in Genesis about the Lord being upset at Noah's kids...

Quote

And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
...
And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
...
And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
...
And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.

 

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My first initial thoughts regarding a longer life span follows @NeuroTypical's thought. We have already had past human beings live a lot longer than 125 years. So, would God allow a longer life span? Yes.

Would God allow his children to never experience death, unless through some accident? Death, or a type of death, is necessary for our progression. Anything that would frustrate that would be limited.

We know that during the Millennium the sons and daughters of God will experience a type of death. Now, your thought is intriguing in the matter of science the reason why we will not age like we do now during the Millennium. I have, to this point, accepted that God would change our bodies through his power like he has done with Enoch's people (Zion), and with Moses, Alma, and others (three Nephites). Then, we reach an age where we are -- as it is said -- twinkled, quickened and are resurrected.

Will the reason we do not age be a result of our ingenuity (obviously inspired by God), or simply the work of God? Your thought requires more pondering, as I am more in understanding that it will be the latter not the former.

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Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren.   Boyd K. Packer  -  Counsel to Youth, October 2011

Let us assume that Brother Packer was speaking to a youth of 10-15 years of age.  Great-grandchildren take 2 generations to produce and assuming that these youths would get married and have children within in 5 -10 years and each generation takes 20-30 years to produce...  We are looking at 45-70 years and considering that the speech was given in 2011 we are talking about at least 2055 ish.

But then again, in the infamous Mormon Doctrine Bruce R. McConkie quotes Joseph Smith in the April 6,1843 GC "Were I going to prophesy, I would say the end would not come in 1844, 5, or 6, or in forty years.  There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes."  McConkie then does some mental gymnastics and supplies the following logic.

Quote

The rising generation is the one that has just begun.  Thus, technically, children born on April 6, 1843, would be the first members of the rising generation, and all children born, however many years later, to the same parents would still be members of that same rising generation.  It is not unreasonable to suppose that many young men had babies at the time of this prophecy and also had other children as much as 50 or 75 years later, assuming for instance that they were married again to younger women.  This very probable assumption would bring the date up to, say, the 2nd decade in the 20th century -- and the children so born would be member of that same rising generation of which the Prophet spoke.  now if theses children lived to the normal age of men generally, they would be alive well past the year 2000 A.D.       Mormon Doctrine second edition p. 692

McConkie is suggesting that a rising generation is actually two generations which could span well past 160 years...

Thus if we take his calculations and apply them to Brother Packer's statement we are easily in the year range of 2170!

 

Bottom line

Quote

 

Matthew 24: 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

So how much life extension can we get in 160 years?  I don't know. 

But I'll tell you what.  Its not the quantity of life that counts, its the quality.  As an orthopedic surgeon that takes care of elderly patients with osteoarthritis and osteoporotic fractures... I can assure you that life extension without a radical rejuvenation of all tissues would only be torture.  And I don't see us curing cancer, arthritis, or the aging process within the next 500 years.  IMHO it would be easier to clone yourself and manage a way to transfer your consciousness / memories from the aged decrepit body into a fresh young clone.  Or a straight up cyborg.  

I used to think that the World would end Mad Max style.  But my perspective has changed, and I think that we may end up more like Star Trek...

 

 

 

Edited by mikbone
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If God is fine with other medical achievements we've made, including those pioneered by the Prophet, President Nelson, then I don't see why it would be a problem to extend life, which is basically just another way of saying healing the negative effects of aging. The only problem I see is if it is done through evil means, like by aborting babies to further the research, for example. I don't know if they're doing that or not in this research; but, if they are, I see a huge problem with it. If done through evil means, it has a parallel with the Tower of Babel and won't end well, in my opinion. 

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That sounds fun.  However....

The longer we live the worse the overall population looks.  Will this new gene be the playtoy of the rich & famous?  That, and along with the population stuggles, the environment, I disagree about Star Trek.  Instead, likely Logan's Run.  Now, they want to live forever.  Well, maybe not everyone wants to, but then those that do will soon exceed those that do because those that die of old age will be replaced by the children and grandchildren of the rich & famous that had their genes "fixed".  Then at some point that gene will mutate back into what God wanted (maybe by God's doing, though I think likely by natural causes), and will hit the amortal like a brickwall.

 

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On 4/26/2019 at 1:24 PM, Scott said:

First of all, none of the following is doctrine and it is 100% speculation.

I have been reading a lot of books and articles on life extension amortality.   I have no desire to extend my own life on earth, but find the science behind it fascinating.  

There are scientists (real scientists, not snake oil salesmen) out there who claim that we are already only about 30 years away from modifying or programming human genes so that aging can be slowed or even stopped.   There are a lot of ethical debates on this.  Basically, the question is “should we?” rather than “can we?”.

 Currently, the natural maximum achievable lifespan is thought to be around 125 years. 

The gene that causes aging has already been isolated and identified.

 

Using genetic programming/modification, scientists have already been able extend the lives of lower organisms, such as worms by ten-fold.  The same scientists are claiming that they may be able to do the same for humans in thirty years.   Eventually amortality may be achieved.  Amortality means that the person would not die of old age, but can still be killed, by say a car accident.   He or she would not be immortal, since he or she could still die, but it wouldn’t be due to aging.   

My first thought it that the Lord will never allow this and that it will never be achieved.  I thought that it sounds contrary to the Lord’s plan.  I have held this belief for the last few years.

Then recently I got to thinking of it more.  What if the Lord would allow it?   What if he is allowing it?

There are many signs of the Second Coming and the start of the Millennium. 

One of them is wars and rumors of wars.   God isn’t the one who will start the wars, but he allows it to happen.   Just because God didn’t start the war, doesn’t mean that it still isn’t a sign of the Lords coming.

Another sign in that the Gospel will be taught in all nations.   Again, God isn’t the one physically doing the missionary work, that is up to men and women.

The scriptures (see 3 Nephi 28:7-9 and Revelations 21:4 for example) say that during the Millennium, that there will be no more disease, pain, or natural death.

If God allows men and women to be involved in the signs of the second coming, could this mean that men and women will also be involved bringing forth the events that eliminate disease and natural death.  Before I thought about it more and how it pertains to current goals of some scientists, I always thought that God will do that all on his own, but maybe he will let men and women be a part of it, whether the currently realize it or not. 

Could men and women themselves play and active part (in a physical sense) on bringing forth the Millennial state of men and women where their lives’ will become prolonged and there will no longer be natural death and disease?   
 

Again, I don’t know and this is just merely speculation rather than doctrine.  Still, I find the question interesting. 

All true principles, temporal and spiritual, whether discovered by recognizing or acknowledging the process to be secular or spiritual, are reflections of the light of Christ. I'm sure that when He comes, the Lord will work with whatever good we've discovered up to that point and which comports with His will, but the day and of hour of His coming is determined by the Father and not so much by what we have discovered by the light of Christ alone. He is preparing His people through priesthood keys and covenants, which culminate on a personal level in the sanctification that comes by way of the Gift and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Edited by CV75
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Here is a side note - we already know how to live longer and healthier.  But we choose not to.  When Adam and Eve were driven from Eden - Adam was told that he would live by the sweat of his brow all the days of his life.  But many choose to eat poorly and live a sedate lifestyle.  Question: is it wicked to openly ignore the advice and command of G-d?   

And so I wonder - if to live during the millennium is our choice or a divine decision?  Is being good and kind to self as important as being good and kind to others?

 

The Traveler

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On 4/26/2019 at 11:24 AM, Scott said:

First of all, none of the following is doctrine and it is 100% speculation.

I have been reading a lot of books and articles on life extension amortality.   I have no desire to extend my own life on earth, but find the science behind it fascinating.  

There are scientists (real scientists, not snake oil salesmen) out there who claim that we are already only about 30 years away from modifying or programming human genes so that aging can be slowed or even stopped.   There are a lot of ethical debates on this.  Basically, the question is “should we?” rather than “can we?”.

 Currently, the natural maximum achievable lifespan is thought to be around 125 years. 

The gene that causes aging has already been isolated and identified.

 

Using genetic programming/modification, scientists have already been able extend the lives of lower organisms, such as worms by ten-fold.  The same scientists are claiming that they may be able to do the same for humans in thirty years.   Eventually amortality may be achieved.  Amortality means that the person would not die of old age, but can still be killed, by say a car accident.   He or she would not be immortal, since he or she could still die, but it wouldn’t be due to aging.   

My first thought it that the Lord will never allow this and that it will never be achieved.  I thought that it sounds contrary to the Lord’s plan.  I have held this belief for the last few years.

Then recently I got to thinking of it more.  What if the Lord would allow it?   What if he is allowing it?

There are many signs of the Second Coming and the start of the Millennium. 

One of them is wars and rumors of wars.   God isn’t the one who will start the wars, but he allows it to happen.   Just because God didn’t start the war, doesn’t mean that it still isn’t a sign of the Lords coming.

Another sign in that the Gospel will be taught in all nations.   Again, God isn’t the one physically doing the missionary work, that is up to men and women.

The scriptures (see 3 Nephi 28:7-9 and Revelations 21:4 for example) say that during the Millennium, that there will be no more disease, pain, or natural death.

If God allows men and women to be involved in the signs of the second coming, could this mean that men and women will also be involved bringing forth the events that eliminate disease and natural death.  Before I thought about it more and how it pertains to current goals of some scientists, I always thought that God will do that all on his own, but maybe he will let men and women be a part of it, whether the currently realize it or not. 

Could men and women themselves play and active part (in a physical sense) on bringing forth the Millennial state of men and women where their lives’ will become prolonged and there will no longer be natural death and disease?   
 

Again, I don’t know and this is just merely speculation rather than doctrine.  Still, I find the question interesting. 

The change in our bodies for the millennium will not just be extending life but the nature of the body will change, similar to what happened with the change in the bodies to Adam and Eve with the Fall.  Their nature changed, their desires changed, primitive, animal instinct was introduced,  Mosiah 16;3 "3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil."

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In a broader sense, I believe in theological circles there’s something of a debate between those who believe Christ comes and makes the world perfect; versus those who believe humankind makes the world perfect and then Christ comes.  It seems to me that most authoritative LDS discourse has revolved around the first paradigm; but the second does have its LDS adherents—particularly in socially progressive circles.  

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19 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In a broader sense, I believe in theological circles there’s something of a debate between those who believe Christ comes and makes the world perfect; versus those who believe humankind makes the world perfect and then Christ comes.  It seems to me that most authoritative LDS discourse has revolved around the first paradigm; but the second does have its LDS adherents—particularly in socially progressive circles.  

While I agree that the general teaching is that Christ will perfect the world at the time of His coming, something more needs to be said in the context of this thread. Joseph Smith frequently took "spiritual" teachings and literalized them in a way that placed responsibility on the shoulders of saints. The scriptures say the books will be opened and we will be judged; Joseph says Priesthood power means we must create those books with our records (D&C 128). The scriptures say angels are God's holy messengers; Joseph teaches they are people, like you or I, continuing post-mortally their life missions. The scriptures teach that there will be a holy city of Zion to receive Christ when He comes again; Joseph says we better learn about city building and governance so we can build that city.

So while Christ will fix the world when He comes, in the meantime Zion (in partnership with God) is to take all that is good and holy and true and safely gather it into her walls.

I won't weigh in on whether genetic engineering is the literal fulfillment of the spiritual longevity prophecy.

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20 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

In a broader sense, I believe in theological circles there’s something of a debate between those who believe Christ comes and makes the world perfect; versus those who believe humankind makes the world perfect and then Christ comes.  It seems to me that most authoritative LDS discourse has revolved around the first paradigm; but the second does have its LDS adherents—particularly in socially progressive circles.  

Hmm. I think the analogy of the church being perfected fits pretty squarely with the individual being perfected. The church, like the individual, cannot ever perfect itself. What it can do is humbly submit to the Father's will, and in doing so will be perfected in Christ. I'm not sure the two ideas you're presenting are at odds in the way you're implying.

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On 5/1/2019 at 2:01 PM, mordorbund said:

While I agree that the general teaching is that Christ will perfect the world at the time of His coming, something more needs to be said in the context of this thread. Joseph Smith frequently took "spiritual" teachings and literalized them in a way that placed responsibility on the shoulders of saints. The scriptures say the books will be opened and we will be judged; Joseph says Priesthood power means we must create those books with our records (D&C 128). The scriptures say angels are God's holy messengers; Joseph teaches they are people, like you or I, continuing post-mortally their life missions. The scriptures teach that there will be a holy city of Zion to receive Christ when He comes again; Joseph says we better learn about city building and governance so we can build that city.

So while Christ will fix the world when He comes, in the meantime Zion (in partnership with God) is to take all that is good and holy and true and safely gather it into her walls.

I won't weigh in on whether genetic engineering is the literal fulfillment of the spiritual longevity prophecy.

The perfection is in the form of restoring it to it's previous state. It is not a development from scratch. It is a return to the old way from the current fallen state of being. 

 

If I go back to Kindergarten for a year to learn some "lessons" and plan to go right back to post-graduate school after my year away, I wouldn't be planning on trying to qualify for college again.   Once we have the veil lifted from us in this current state, I am sure our full understanding of genetics, world building, etc will come right back to us.  It is the lessons based in obedience that we carry with us, that we have to learn.  It is that measure of intelligence that will carry through to the next life, those based in faith and obedience that we didn't have a chance to learn about previously.  These are lessons that can be learned during any era, regardless of the world's scientific development.  We were matured spirits before coming here.  All the "book-learning" has already been done. 

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2 hours ago, Fifthziff said:

The perfection is in the form of restoring it to it's previous state. It is not a development from scratch. It is a return to the old way from the current fallen state of being. 

 

If I go back to Kindergarten for a year to learn some "lessons" and plan to go right back to post-graduate school after my year away, I wouldn't be planning on trying to qualify for college again.   Once we have the veil lifted from us in this current state, I am sure our full understanding of genetics, world building, etc will come right back to us.  It is the lessons based in obedience that we carry with us, that we have to learn.  It is that measure of intelligence that will carry through to the next life, those based in faith and obedience that we didn't have a chance to learn about previously.  These are lessons that can be learned during any era, regardless of the world's scientific development.  We were matured spirits before coming here.  All the "book-learning" has already been done. 

Just to clarify, are you saying this is the state in heaven following the resurrection? Or are you saying this is the state on earth during the Millennium?

 

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