Commandments (Blessings and Curses)

[Traveler]

On 5/13/2019 at 5:47 AM, Mores said:

You said that you wanted to point out what we had in common.  And then you start by pointing out something completely unrelated to what we're discussing.  So, where is the stuff we have in common?

Here's my take.  One primary point you're making is that we need to depend on the Spirit to truly teach us anything meaningful when speaking of "things as they really are and as they really will be."  I absolutely 100% agree with that.  I certainly hope that is what you were getting at.  "Things as they really are and as they really will be" is a more complete and more specific definition of "true doctrine".  And that is what we're both hoping to truly know and understand so that such knowledge and understanding will better guide our lives.  So, that is where we have things in common -- I hope.

Here's where we differ.  Looking at your second paragraph, the bottom line is that we cannot trust the words of scriptures.  I'm truly hoping that is not what you mean.  But that really is what you said.   I'm giving you the opportunity to correct, clarify, expand, change, etc.  I really hope that is not what you meant.  Please clarify.  Please don't bring yet another tangent (as you are wont to do).  Just explain what you believe the purpose of scriptures is.

Yes, there are errors in scriptures.  Yes, people can interpret them to mean whatever they want them to mean.  But I see scriptures serving the same purpose as a urim and thummim.  They only serve their proper function when guided by the Spirit.  Even so, they are a tool to help us get at true doctrine.  But again, even acknowledging this much, what I'm getting out of what you wrote is that we must throw out scriptures.  That's only for the prophet to tell us what they mean.

I gave you the scriptures which said the same things that I said in my own words.  We all know about personal interpretations.  But the scriptures I offered you are for your interpretation as the Spirit is available to you.  But instead of offering your interpretation of the scriptures, you reject scriptures outright as an aide and guide to learning true doctrine. 

It really does sound like you're saying that scriptures are not for us to read and study.  Why, then, are we commanded to study them daily? 

Why do we come together at church to study and discuss them together?  There is no general authority there to interpret for us. But we come together specifically to bring the results of our study together.  Do we have keys?  We've been told for a generation or two that every member is a missionary.  We're commanded as bearers of the priesthood to preach, teach, exhort, and to baptize.  All of these are under the guidance of the bishop (directly or delegated).  And he holds keys to direct it.  So, what keys do we lack?

 

Part of words are what we call semantics.  In literal terms this is called intention and extension of words.    The extension of a word is everything it can possibly mean – the intention is the very narrow purpose the word was intended to mean in the context it was used.  My view of scripture is similar to the view of Jesus when he said, “Search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me”.   The primary purpose of scriptures is to testify of Christ for the primary purpose that we look to and rely on Christ for salvation.

In scientific terms in regards to intelligence is the principle that learning and behavior are directly related.  When we learn we change behavior and when we change our behavior it is only because we learned something.  It is my understanding of scripture that the purpose of Christ and the plan of salvation is to change our behavior.  Jesus referred to this principle as being doers of the word and not hearers only.  This validates the scientific principle that we do not learn without doing – specifically changing behavior.  This also plays into being born again of the spirit.

What I am trying to do is change behavior and thinking about terms.  Change the idea of true doctrine (that does not require any change in behavior) to learning principles of truth.  The difference being that one requires a change of behavior to validate it has been achieved.  Thus the principle of faith in Jesus Christ (Article of Faith #4) is different than the doctrine of faith in Christ – in the same way there is a difference in hearing the doctrine and executing the principle. 

This concept is not dependent on the “printed” word in scripture or even the intent or extent of the meaning of words is scripture – the concept is dependent on the scriptures as a means to draw us closer to Christ so we will change our behavior through Christ.

We are advised to daily read scriptures – not because there is any eternal goal achieved in reading scripture.  We are not trying to change our behavior into being scripture readers – we are trying to change our behavior into being perfected Saints of G-d.  The scriptures are a help towards preparing us for the word but not the word nor means nor the end.

 

The Traveler

Edited May 14, 2019 by Traveler

[GaleG]

On 5/10/2019 at 2:17 PM, Anddenex said:

Thank you. To further conversation, would you consider the following a punishment or prophecy or both: 1 Samuel 8: 10-19.

I would view it as a prophecy of the consequences (punishment) that would befall the people
if they chose a king to rule over them instead of God ruling over them.  I could not find a similar
warning in the Book of Mormon.  Maybe the Nephites having a king was viewed as positive?

Thank you,

Gale

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, GaleG said:

I would view it as a prophecy of the consequences (punishment) that would befall the people
if they chose a king to rule over them instead of God ruling over them.  I could not find a similar
warning in the Book of Mormon.  Maybe the Nephites having a king was viewed as positive?

Thank you,

Gale

Thank you. In this light you can now see how I view Adam and Eve's experience and why I shared what I shared. If you feel differently that is OK.

True, the Book of Mormon doesn't have the same prophecy as they were already a people who were familiar with having a king. I do find it telling though that Nephi did not want to be a king or to be their king. This tells me Nephi understood a valuable principle.