Is It Really So Hard To Love Those Who Leave?


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Guest Godless
5 hours ago, Vort said:

Maybe. More likely is that the author is talking about a relatively rare phenomenon of those who leave the Church being treated as outcasts—rare, that is, when compared to the far greater number of those who leave the Church, cut off and actively sabotage relationships with LDS family and (former) friends, and then lyingly complain about being cast out.

How many do you personally know who have left the Church? Of those, how many have become bitter and descended, at least for a time, into antiMormon activities? On the other hand, how many do you know personally who, having left the Church, have been abandoned and cast out by the very people who used to call them "Brother" or "Sister"?

In my lifetime experience, the former is vastly more common than the latter, like ten-to-one or twenty-to-one, maybe much more. In point of fact, I know of no one in my circle of acquaintances who fits the latter description. I am sure that somewhere, at some time, someone has experienced that.  But to treat that anomaly as if it's the common condition and lecture the faithful Saints on how they ought not act in such an evil way falls flat on my ear. If the Church's leadership sees that problem and wants to address it publicly, they will have nothing but my support. But when Joe Saint decides to take upon himself the duty of righteous accuser, I find myself less than impressed.

Such false (or at least exaggerated) allegations do actual damage. They lift the responsibility off of those who should rightfully bear it—those who have left in bitterness and, forsaking their friends, whine about being forsaken—and wrongly place it on the Saints. Likewise, the onus is on the leavers to heal the breach. We as Saints take that onus on ourselves, and we should, because the Master has required it of us. But we should never lose sight of the fact that doing so is an act of love and mercy on the part of the Saints, not an act of contrition or repentance.

Sorry I'm late to the party. It's been a crazy week.

Vort is correct. In my experience of interacting with former members, the ones who have the most conflicted relationships with family members and (former) friends almost always bear the brunt of the responsibility for those soured relationships. It's not enough that they "got out". Their "love" for their family and friends compels them to try to "save" them from the church. That's never going to end well. 

When I left, there was a lot of tension between me and my parents for several years. The line of work I ultimately got into didn't help things much. Over time though, our relationship has gotten much better. I get along great with family and am still friends with many of the people I grew up with. My wife and I were even married by an LDS bishop who is an old friend of the family, and another family friend made our wedding cake. I don't crap on their beliefs and they don't crap on mine (though I get an eye roll from my mom every time I change jobs, which happened three times last year and will probably happen again later this year).

Going back to my experience with other "exmos", I've noticed that animosity is far more common among Utah folks than non-Utah ones. Must be a cultural thing, and I'd possibly be lying if I said that I'd be absolutely cool and laid back towards the church if I was surrounded by its influence 24/7. After all, we all know how tolerant and embracing @Vort is towards the liberal hippie population that saturates his home in the PNW. 😜 Conversely, it's easier to "live and let live" when your LDS network of family and friends is the minority in your community, as was the case for me.

I also feel it's worth noting that I know multiple Utah LDS women who were victims of abuse at the hands of their husbands and were essentially told to try to live more righteously when they shared their experiences with their bishops. They're understandably very hurt and angry about their experiences, and I think a case could be made that the church could do better when it comes to handling cases of abuse. After a certain point though, I think the best thing for apostates to do is to move on and let go. Otherwise, they're just letting the church control them.

Edited by Godless
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3 minutes ago, Godless said:

After all, we all know how tolerant and embracing @Vort is towards the liberal hippie population that saturates his home in the PNW. 😜

For the record, the complaining and railing I do is almost totally confined to this forum. I rarely voice complaints to others around here, even fellow social conservatives.

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44 minutes ago, Godless said:

I also feel it's worth noting that I know multiple Utah LDS women who were victims of abuse at the hands of their husbands and were essentially told to try to live more righteously when they shared their experiences with their bishops. They're understandably very hurt and angry about their experiences, and I think a case could be made that the church could do better when it comes to handling cases of abuse. After a certain point though, I think the best thing for apostates to do is to move on and let go. Otherwise, they're just letting the church control them.

I have hoped, and continue to hope, that such cases are statistical rarities.  But getting transferred back to Provo and working with DV victims, I’ve certainly been jolted out of my hope that such things never happen.  

Incidentally, when it comes to dealing with DV perps—middle-class active LDS men are The. Worst.  They could learn a lot about humility from most of the alcoholics and druggies I work with—those guys are much more willing to admit to their problems than the priesthood-bearing patriarchs I meet in court. :(  

/threadjack

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5 hours ago, Godless said:

Going back to my experience with other "exmos", I've noticed that animosity is far more common among Utah folks than non-Utah ones. Must be a cultural thing, and I'd possibly be lying if I said that I'd be absolutely cool and laid back towards the church if I was surrounded by its influence 24/7. 

Lived in Provo for 10 years, loved every minute of it but did notice that you are screwed when you are outnumbered, and this goes for anything anywhere in life. I now live in a region with less then 5% LDS and its as Godless says "Live and let live", unless you surround your self with the 5%. lol.

My ex wife left the church 7 yrs ago while we were married, not in an apostate or anti kind of way, she just said, "Im done with religion". It was during this time that I was caught in the middle of "The Church" and "The Leaver". I gotta admit that I was on the churches side, heck I was born and raised, its in my blood and Im very proud to be Mormon but sadly I witnessed well intentioned people from the church behave disingenuously. Our family was now on the ward councils weekly retention list and one member with a calling that never said Hi to us before is now stopping by with baked goods. A Primary leader with a kid same age as my young one offering my kids a ride to church (because I work on most Sundays) but never offering to do anything with my kids outside of church. Missionaries, Home Teachers, Visiting Teachers stopping by un-announced...heck my Dad and Brothers don't even come over unless they call or text.

I had to tell the Bishop to put our Family on the do not contact list because they just wouldn't leave us alone and when they changed callings a new person would UP the activation efforts and a new set of people would come over un-announced again. Although I admire the great faith of these members, because I been in their shoes before, I got to admit that I did not see God or Love in any of their efforts. Love is kindness and coming over to visit because you have a calling is not kindness, its obligation and that was made very clear to me because every single person that made efforts to befriend us while they had a calling, never bothered to interact with us when they got released from that calling. I now know why some people call us robots.  

 

 

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Guest Mores
10 hours ago, Godless said:

Going back to my experience with other "exmos", I've noticed that animosity is far more common among Utah folks than non-Utah ones. Must be a cultural thing, and I'd possibly be lying if I said that I'd be absolutely cool and laid back towards the church if I was surrounded by its influence 24/7. After all, we all know how tolerant and embracing @Vort is towards the liberal hippie population that saturates his home in the PNW. 😜 Conversely, it's easier to "live and let live" when your LDS network of family and friends is the minority in your community, as was the case for me.

Thanks, Godless.  I appreciate your input and perspective.  Yes, I do wish more people had the "live and let live" attitude as you do.

On the other hand, I don't believe it is because of the minority/majority population.  I've lived in multiple high-density, medium-density, and low-density "Mormonville" areas.  And it really varies by location. One low-density area was one of the most anti-Mormon areas I've known.  One low-density area was probably the most friendly.  And likewise with high and medium density areas.  It really does depend on the local philosophies and what religions the non-LDS population is.

Some religions are more "live and let live" friendly.  While others are not.

10 hours ago, Godless said:

I also feel it's worth noting that I know multiple Utah LDS women who were victims of abuse at the hands of their husbands and were essentially told to try to live more righteously when they shared their experiences with their bishops. They're understandably very hurt and angry about their experiences, and I think a case could be made that the church could do better when it comes to handling cases of abuse. After a certain point though, I think the best thing for apostates to do is to move on and let go. Otherwise, they're just letting the church control them.

This is pretty sad.  I don't understand how any priesthood holder can justify this behavior.  How many conference talks and priesthood lessons have been about criticizing unrighteous dominion?  I've heard MANY in my lifetime.  Lessons throughout scriptures talk of how those who lead must lead with love first.

This is different than the original topic by at least one metric.  We actually have statistics for domestic abuse both in and out of the Church.  It appears we're right at the national average.  We should be better.  But we're no different than anyone else.  That's terrible.  We could at least be thankful that we're no worse.  But that isn't enough.  We really should be better.  I am actually ashamed that we're no better.

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Guest Mores
12 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What are you talking about?  I am tan.  And I have excellent photographic evidence that Hitler was gray.  

What??  Oh!  Gray...  Right.

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Guest Mores
8 minutes ago, Godless said:

Beer industry. Currently working the beer side of a large liquor store.

So, how can I get a piece of that action?

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Guest Godless
1 hour ago, Mores said:

So, how can I get a piece of that action?

We accept cash, checks, debit, and all major credit cards. 😁

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6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Lived in Provo for 10 years, loved every minute of it but did notice that you are screwed when you are outnumbered, and this goes for anything anywhere in life. I now live in a region with less then 5% LDS and its as Godless says "Live and let live", unless you surround your self with the 5%. lol.

My ex wife left the church 7 yrs ago while we were married, not in an apostate or anti kind of way, she just said, "Im done with religion". It was during this time that I was caught in the middle of "The Church" and "The Leaver". I gotta admit that I was on the churches side, heck I was born and raised, its in my blood and Im very proud to be Mormon but sadly I witnessed well intentioned people from the church behave disingenuously. Our family was now on the ward councils weekly retention list and one member with a calling that never said Hi to us before is now stopping by with baked goods. A Primary leader with a kid same age as my young one offering my kids a ride to church (because I work on most Sundays) but never offering to do anything with my kids outside of church. Missionaries, Home Teachers, Visiting Teachers stopping by un-announced...heck my Dad and Brothers don't even come over unless they call or text.

I had to tell the Bishop to put our Family on the do not contact list because they just wouldn't leave us alone and when they changed callings a new person would UP the activation efforts and a new set of people would come over un-announced again. Although I admire the great faith of these members, because I been in their shoes before, I got to admit that I did not see God or Love in any of their efforts. Love is kindness and coming over to visit because you have a calling is not kindness, its obligation and that was made very clear to me because every single person that made efforts to befriend us while they had a calling, never bothered to interact with us when they got released from that calling. I now know why some people call us robots.  

Maybe they just didn't much like you. After all, it's difficult to befriend the kind of person who gets annoyed when you bring them baked goods.

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Guest Mores
6 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

 and that was made very clear to me because every single person that made efforts to befriend us while they had a calling, never bothered to interact with us when they got released from that calling. I now know why some people call us robots.  

Yeah, I wonder why they gave up trying when their efforts produced so much fruit.  And robots are known for giving up all the time.

I don't know about you.  But when people make it very clear that they "DO NOT WANT TO BE CONTACTED" I try to stop contacting them.  So what bothered you more?  That they tried contacting you when you said you didn't want to be contacted?  Or that they stopped contacting you when you made it clear that their efforts were in vain?

You may be upset that their efforts "appeared" to be out of obligation rather than "love".  But the truth is that it is through obligation that people learn to love.  But if you refuse their obligation, when do they have an opportunity to love?

Even as a parent, I can say that I felt "giddy" when I laid eyes on my first child.  And I could say that was love.  But after many years of being a parent, I've come to know what love really is.  REAL love.  And it was not that giddy feeling I had when I first became a father.

It was through knowing my obligations and actively fufilling them that I came to know what REAL love actually was.  If you don't know that love and obligation are hand-in-hand then you don't know what love is.  

I realize that "obligation" somehow has a negative connotation as if one is being forced into it.  No.  It can be so.  But it certainly doesn't have to be.  Obligation is a part of love.  Perhaps it is more palatable if you consider it a "responsibility" rather than "obligation".  And fulfilling righteous responsibilities with full purpose of heart is one way of learning to love and growing into love.

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9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Wow.  Profound, and also true.

Indeed...  Also note that people complain if the church does not make an effort when they are clearly struggling... But they also complain if we clearly do make an effort....  People complain that they do not have 'friends' at church... Yet the things the church does to try to help people make 'friends' and build meaningful relationships are cast off as 'fake', 'artificial' or 'obligatory'

I do not know about anyone else but every friend I have ever made started off in some kind of meeting of obligation fashion but being open to it becoming more allowed it to build up from there.

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30 minutes ago, Mores said:

Yeah, I wonder why they gave up trying when their efforts produced so much fruit.  And robots are known for giving up all the time.

I don't know about you.  But when people make it very clear that they "DO NOT WANT TO BE CONTACTED" I try to stop contacting them.  So what bothered you more?  That they tried contacting you when you said you didn't want to be contacted?  Or that they stopped contacting you when you made it clear that their efforts were in vain?

You may be upset that their efforts "appeared" to be out of obligation rather than "love".  But the truth is that it is through obligation that people learn to love.  But if you refuse their obligation, when do they have an opportunity to love?

Even as a parent, I can say that I felt "giddy" when I laid eyes on my first child.  And I could say that was love.  But after many years of being a parent, I've come to know what love really is.  REAL love.  And it was not that giddy feeling I had when I first became a father.

It was through knowing my obligations and actively fufilling them that I came to know what REAL love actually was.  If you don't know that love and obligation are hand-in-hand then you don't know what love is.  

I realize that "obligation" somehow has a negative connotation as if one is being forced into it.  No.  It can be so.  But it certainly doesn't have to be.  Obligation is a part of love.  Perhaps it is more palatable if you consider it a "responsibility" rather than "obligation".  And fulfilling righteous responsibilities with full purpose of heart is one way of learning to love and growing into love.

I'm mindful of the parable of the Good Samaritan, a parable which was given after the greatest commandment:

"And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

To which was asked: "And who is my neighbor?"

The parable of a man who stopped by and helped, not only a stranger, but an enemy was given in response.

Now, to @priesthoodpower's point -- it is unfortunate that oft times before we stop and help the stranger we must be assigned by our bishop to do so. I don't buy into the fact that doing so means we don't really love them -- though our love is imperfect. And sometimes it's because we aren't aware of the situation before being assigned to it. (How can we know of every need in the ward? That's one of the big reasons we have bishops and assignments.) But there are probably too many situations where we do know of need and do nothing about it until assigned. And there are probably too many situations where we drop our Good Samaritan-ing as soon as the assignment ends. And as much as (as both you and I implied) that may be because serving someone who isn't receptive can be very difficult, that difficulty doesn't justify our weaknesses in the matter.

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