Is It Really So Hard To Love Those Who Leave?


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8 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I do not know about anyone else but every friend I have ever made started off in some kind of meeting of obligation fashion but being open to it becoming more allowed it to build up from there.

I was literally sent over to make friends with the new boy by my mother when I was 11-12. He's still one of my best friends some 30+ years later. But I was tasked to go play with the new kid on the block.

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My husband and I were married in the temple. He comes from pioneer stock. After 2 years of marriage, he announced his intention to leave the church. That came completely out of the blue for me. Absolutely nothing to indicate he was leaning towards this. When he left, I struggled with it and frankly, didn't handle it well. He was completely anti and the vitriol he had for the church (and church members) was so shocking to me (his outspoken contempt has lessened now). I still don't know why he left (although I have a very strong suspicion of what it was--absolutely nothing to do with a member or members at all).

Based on this experience, I can say that the ward members who reached out to him did so with friendship, not with any intent of reactivating or converting. In fact, a couple of members that we hung out with commented that when he left the church, he left them as well.   

One thing that I can say that disturbs me from church members is how many (friends and acquaintances) said to me that they would divorce their spouse if they left the church. First, you honestly don't know what you would do unless you are in that situation (trust me, before I married I would have been the same to say such--in fact, I would never have dated my husband had I any inkling he would leave the church), but that truly isn't helpful to say that. Say it to yourself or someone else, but not in my hearing. I don't need to justify to you my decision to stay married so even saying, "Wow, I could never stay married. I'd divorce him/her in a heartbeat." suggests that my decision is wrong. Second, I am grieving! and you suggest to me that I should divorce him (and yes, I had people do more than just say they couldn't stay married--they flat out asked me if I'm getting a divorce)? If I had asked someone if I should divorce is one thing, but I never brought that subject up (thought about it of course, but never asked anyone since that was my decision alone). Offering such a "solution" to my issue is extreme to say it nicely. You can express sympathy better than that, surely. 

So, in my limited experience, it was the leaver who severed relationships, not church members.

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6 minutes ago, beefche said:

 

One thing that I can say that disturbs me from church members is how many (friends and acquaintances) said to me that they would divorce their spouse if they left the church.

Couldn't agree more. I find that incredibly disturbing as well. 

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Couldn't agree more. I find that incredibly disturbing as well. 

Why is it disturbing? It's a personal decision that doesn't deserve judgment from the peanut gallery. I respect and admire @beefche's decision to stay. I would respect and admire someone's decision to leave. Presumption that either decisions is cavalier and callous is insensitive.

It's one thing to discuss theoretical reasons why people should or should not get divorced. It's another thing entirely to be "disturbed" by the reality of a hard decision made in good faith.

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21 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why is it disturbing? It's a personal decision that doesn't deserve judgment from the peanut gallery. I respect and admire @beefche's decision to stay. I would respect and admire someone's decision to leave. Presumption that either decisions is cavalier and callous is insensitive.

It's one thing to discuss theoretical reasons why people should or should not get divorced. It's another thing entirely to be "disturbed" by the reality of a hard decision made in good faith.

I didn't express myself well. What people decide in their marriage is their business. I don't agree necessarily that divorce is the answer if one of the spouses leave the church (and that's the only thing that changed), but it's not my business and I'm not privy to the privacy of the marriage or of the Lord's inspiration. So, one couple's choice to separate and another to stay isn't disturbing to me.

What disturbed me was how they expressed it to me. Saying to me that they would divorce in response to me sharing such personal, painful information disturbs me. To me, it just isn't proper to express that thought as a response. Something more along the lines of, "I'm so sorry to hear that. That must be very difficult. Wow, I'm not sure how I would respond in your place."--any of those are appropriate. It just upsets me to hear people say that in response. I don't hold it against them. Most of the time, people just don't know what to say in these situations, so unfortunately, they don't think about how it will sound or be taken.

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13 minutes ago, beefche said:

 I don't agree necessarily that divorce is the answer if one of the spouses leave the church  but it's not my business

It's not my business either but I can't imagine leaving a marriage over it. In fact, I think it's a grave mistake and one you'll regret because of the damage it does to your children especially, but you too in the long run. It's not my life though, and I don't have to live with you (generic!) choices so do whatever you wish. 

Thank God my wife didn't leave me when I changed religions. Sure, she should have left me when she found out about my girlfriend, but that's a different story. 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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I guess I feel so strongly about divorce because I've seen the effect it has on my friends and family. I've never been divorced (I know, shocker) but it is just so damaging. And even in the best circumstances, it really takes something out of you. Not to mention the effect it has on children. Which is devastating and stays with them for life. If you can do that to your children (and yourself) over this, than well, I'll pray for you. 

And LDS get married so young. You are not the same person at 40 that you are at 22 (if you are, I feel really sorry for you) and people can grow and change. Divorcing someone because they change religions is just not something I can comprehend. Not to mention it seems unfair to your spouse unless you tell them on your wedding day that your love and commitment is contingent on them believing certain things for the next 50-60 years. I don't understand it. I really don't. 


Again though, it's your life. Do what you want, let the consequences follow. 

Edited by MormonGator
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My experience with that disconnection with those who leave is because they turn anti.  I had a co-worker who left the church and EVERY time we were around each other he found a way to bring up the church and run his mouth on topic "X" (flavor of the day).  

Someone like that, yea, we are not going to stay friends.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Edited: 

My constructive criticism of the Church in my own experiences seems to offend some of you which is hilarious because I used to be like that until I decided to listen to what people are complaining about.  There are two kinds of people that leave the church. The ones that become anti (hundreds) and the ones that leave in silence (tens of thousands and most of them are still on Church rosters). The Church has a problem, in this internet age people are leaving, human beings are losing trust in ALL religious organizations. God on the other hand does not have a problem because in this internet age people are learning more about him organically. I think that the internet is part of Gods plan, its a tool that will soon spread his Gospel faster and to all the corners of the earth.

Im noticing a trend..

1. While shopping malls are closing because people are not going there or at least not spending their money there, Amazon and other online retailers are thriving because goods are delivered directly to peoples homes. You get to shop without having to see a disgruntled cashier or be around loud obnoxious shoppers (walmart).

2. I got half way through college in 2001 and dropped out (for many reasons), attempted a comeback in 2008 via Phoenix universitys half in-class half online program, didnt last one semester (for many reasons). In 2018 I learned of an accelerated 100% online university called WGU out of Saltlake, finished my remaining 65 credits in 10 months from the comfort of my own home  without having to see a classmate or instructor. Was I gonna be a loser without a degree the rest of my life because I couldnt function in a normal "American" college environment? all it took was for a new company to change the environment and I thrived.  Most Churches including LDS have a very Americanized environment which I believe is limiting, God is not an American, our Prophet is working on changing the environment and eventually the Gospel will explode.

The internet will alllow us, the LDS saints, to function individually and remotely. I know soo many inactives who are broken and beaten up from life that want the goodness of worshiping God in his true gospel but dont want to walk in a chapel feeling judged because they have tattoos, a different style of dress, or a bad reputation. These people will thrive if given the chance. 

God loves to be worshiped so I think he would be pretty disappointed with us (Members and Leadership) if we cant figure it out, correction, people will always worship God regardless of religion, its our job to teach the Gospel. A change in the environment will allow all this to happen.

 

 

On 5/9/2019 at 3:42 AM, Mores said:

Yeah, I wonder why they gave up trying when their efforts produced so much fruit.  And robots are known for giving up all the time.

 

My ex had a best friend she went to college with, after college they went their separate ways. We got married and so did her best friend and a year later we found ourselves in the same ward together. We had two children born the same year as them and for 7 years while we were in that ward we did a lot of things together, family get togethers, FHE's, New years etc..We moved a couple of streets over into another ward boundary and although we didn't see them on Sundays her and my wife (at the time) still hung out. My wife (at the time) left the Church but no one knew, she just stopped going, didnt say anything on facebook, but her selfies now featured her in "out of standards" clothing. We no longer saw her friend. My ex was the same person just not religious, without having to type a novel it was obvious her friends friendship was based on religion and not genuine connection, or should I say it was genuine as long as the Church was the commonality. You can see why my wife (at the time) wanted nothing to do with religion anymore, not just mormons but religion in general. She still has a strong relationship with God. 

On 5/9/2019 at 3:42 AM, Mores said:

You may be upset that their efforts "appeared" to be out of obligation rather than "love".  But the truth is that it is through obligation that people learn to love.  But if you refuse their obligation, when do they have an opportunity to love?

Even as a parent, I can say that I felt "giddy" when I laid eyes on my first child.  And I could say that was love.  But after many years of being a parent, I've come to know what love really is.  REAL love.  And it was not that giddy feeling I had when I first became a father.

uhhhhhh....a relationship between parent/child is way different then a visiting teacher and a member. But lets run with your parent/child explanation which I agree with. There is a reason why Church went from 3 hours to 2 and is pushing more toward a home centered Gospel, its because the correlation between obligation and love is not being met by people with callings, in fact the opposite is happening, members dont want to be assigned a friend, or in the case of inactives...becoming a project. Ideally we would learn from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRqoJEXMhU but sadly, no one has the time. Its easier to develop "REAL love" from "obligation" in your own home where the Prophet is steering the Church. 

 

 

On 5/9/2019 at 3:37 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe they just didn't much like you. After all, it's difficult to befriend the kind of person who gets annoyed when you bring them baked goods.

Have you ever unfriended someone on facebook? That's the equivalent of my wife (at the time) leaving the Church, she "Unfriended" the church. Now imagine the person that you unfriended on facebook showing up at your door step unannounced with baked goods.  

This is no longer the 1990's, everyone has a cell phone and everyone is accessible at any minute of the day. My Dad and brothers love and respect me enough to not appear unannounced at my doorstep unless I respond to their text/call that they want to stop by. The members have my cell phone but not one of them txt'd or called when stopping by, yet those same people will text or call reminding me of activitys. This is not a me problem, its a societal change and the Church is slowly catching on.   

 

 

 

Edited by priesthoodpower
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3 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Have you ever unfriended someone on facebook? That's the equivalent of my wife (at the time) leaving the Church, she "Unfriended" the church. Now imagine the person that you unfriended on facebook showing up at your door step unannounced with baked goods.

I understand/understood that it's the people leaving the church who are "unfriending" the church members.

Therefore it is quite unsurprising that when released from assignment the unfriended individuals don't continue to bring baked goods.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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On 5/9/2019 at 6:42 PM, beefche said:

One thing that I can say that disturbs me from church members is how many (friends and acquaintances) said to me that they would divorce their spouse if they left the church.

Heh.  A story:

I experienced something similar when I was a teenager.  My (LDS) mom had MS, and was experiencing a slow and horrible health decline that could only end in her early death.  I remember my (very much non LDS) dad being ticked off one day.  Apparently some of "your good Mormon relatives" (as he called his in-laws around me whenever they did something he didn't like) had approached him to say they wouldn't hold it against him if he were to divorce her because of her health issues.  To hear him tell it, they were sort of halfway urging him to do it, trying to comfort him with how her siblings and parents would 'take her back' and provide care and whatnot.  My dad was hugely offended and used those comments (and others) to fuel his dislike of religion and religious people for the rest of his life.  I was similarly offended, and the story was part of my justification for going inactive for 6 years.  It took a while for me to mature and realize that my personal discipleship rested on my testimony of the reality of Christ and the truth claims of the church, as opposed to the qualities of other members, related or not.  

 

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4 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

Could it be that the chapels are not as full as they should be, is "religion" becoming less popular? in my stake there have been 2 ward boundary realignments in 7 years because attendance is shrinking with the lack of growth.

What good is a building if no one is in it.

I guess our opinions are informed by our circumstances to an extent.  I've lived in the same house for almost 20 year now, and watched as my old ward boundaries have become like 4-5 new ward boundaries and another stake.  I've watched two new buildings be built, and seen the happy faces of folks who no longer have to drive 30 minutes to church.  In my neck of the woods, we see Pres. Nelson's actions as reacting to the Lord's growing church rolling across the world, and the need to prepare against future hard times as we struggle to maintain our religious liberty.

I live in Colorado Springs, which is growing populationwise, but that growth doesn't account for all the increases in membership in this area.   

Edited by NeuroTypical
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On 5/24/2019 at 10:45 AM, NeuroTypical said:

I guess our opinions are informed by our circumstances to an extent. 

They are, but intelligent opinions are formed by empirical evidence. 

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

They are, but intelligent opinions are formed by empirical evidence. 

I'm looking for the right term.  I'd say a "fine line" between them.  But I could also say a "cyclical relationship" between empirical evidence and our circumstances.

There really is no way to separate them.  Aren't data points for empirical evidence nothing more than one person's or team of persons' circumstantial observations?

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10 minutes ago, Mores said:

  Aren't data points for empirical evidence nothing more than one person's or team of persons' circumstantial observations?

Do you believe in an objective truth? 

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Guest Mores
16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Do you believe in an objective truth? 

Well, certainly.

Quote

Empirical evidence: Information acquired by observation or experimentation

My only question is "whose observation"?

Yes, I understand the nature of scientific observation.  And I understand the scientific method has given us this miraculous world we find ourselves in.  It's marvelous and wonderful.  Not saying it isn't.  I'm grateful for all the scientists and engineers of history who have brought us to this point where we live like gods in a land of milk and honey.  (This is not sarcasm.  I truly do characterize our world in this manner).

But in the end, it still depends on the hypotheses, experiments, observations, and conclusions of flawed humans.

What I'm realizing as I study more and more about how we got here and how we enjoy all the "scientific advancements" we do is that it wasn't due to man's intellect that we received this.  It was an outpouring of the Spirit to enlighten man's mind to push us in this direction.

When I consider "intelligence" (you post said "intelligent opinions" are formed by empirical evidence) I don't often think of man as the source of knowledge or intelligence or innovation, but the Lord.

I wish I could post that Youtube video of the TED talk where a renowned scientist pointed out how much of our completely accepted fundamental scientific truths are really a myth.  He got roasted for by fellow scientists.  But everything he said was correct.  All the comments against him were of nitpicky things that really didn't change the conclusions he brought forth.

If anyone knows the Youtube video I'm talking about, I'd appreciate it if you could post it.

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