The Justice League Movie

[unixknight]

Yeah, finally saw it.  Yeah, I know it's been out a while.

It was boring, drab and derivative.  I think the Justice League movie is the epitome of what's wrong with this last iteration of the DCU.  Its flaws are the flaws of the DCEU in general, and it's not surprising that there won't be any more DCEU films from this iteration.  

*Spoilers, duh.*

• The DC comic book universe has had a light, optimistic, hopeful tone.  Its heroes tend to be noble, virtuous and positive.  Think of the traditional portrayal of Superman, Wonder Woman, Hawk & Dove, etc.  There were exceptions, of course... Most notably Batman... but Batman's darkness gave a narrative balance to the brighter tone of the other Justice League members that was really good.  This version of the DCEU went full dark and gritty on *all* of the characters.  Wonder Woman was less so, but then, she also  had the most popular (and best made) film in the DCEU.  So here, Warner Brothers was trying to compete with Marvel by not letting the DC tone be the DC tone.  You know, the one that has had it successfully competing with Marvel for many decades?
• The Justice League was trying to be the Avengers.  Specifically, the first Avengers movie.  Disagree?  Tell me where you've heard this plot synopsis before:  A team of separate superheroes join forces, somewhat reluctantly, to fight off a Big Bad villain who invades the Earth form another world, bringing an alien army with him  to acquire a cube shaped plot MacGuffin.  Along the way, an even bigger, more powerful villain is hinted at.
• They rushed it.  By the time the MCU had The Avengers, it already had movies to introduce Thor, Iron Man, the Hulk and Captain America.  Each of these characters was very true to their traditional comic book selves and the real challenge in The Avengers was to see if these different characters could successfully be written into one movie.  The Avengers was an experiment, and a very successful one.  Justice League was rushed, with only two characters having already had their own movie in which they were fleshed out and introduced.  The other characters felt like accessories.  They didn't invest the time to introduce these characters and get the audience to care about them before shoving them into a story that was meant for us to care about them just because we're told to.
• Aquaman is a jerk.  He has zero charisma and actually doesn't want to be liked by anybody.  I don't blame the actor for this.  Jason Momoa is very charismatic and he can really be likeable even when he's playing a rough character.  He was wasted in this film.  Add to this that Aquaman's character is just hard to write for, by virtue of his powers.  He's an aquatic character who can do cool aquatic things fighting a battle in this movie somewhere in the middle of the largest continent on the planet.  The climax of the film should have taken place in Atlantis.  There was already a cube there anyway.  Just rearrange the order in which Steppenwolf acquires the cubes and you can also eliminate the pointless battle in Atlantis early in the film.
• The Flash/Barry Allen is hard to connect with.  He's like the teenage kid that no teenage kids will be able to relate to, because he doesn't act like a teenage kid.  (For a primer on how to do it right, see how Marvel is handling Spider-Man.)  At least there was a modicum of friendly chemistry between him and Cyborg, but Cyborg wasn't very relatable either.
• The action scenes were boring because we don't care about them.  We know how each and every one of the action sequences is going to end even if we'd gotten no spoilers at all.  
• Last but not least, Warner Brothers was trying to launch a whole new superhero movie franchise right as superhero movie fatigue was beginning to set in.  These guys get millions of dollars to make these decisions.  I do not understand this.

So it was boring.  It felt pointless, and it kept comparing itself to the Avengers.  

We need Richard Donner and Christopher Nolan back.

 

[mordorbund]

23 minutes ago, unixknight said:

*Spoilers, duh.*

Thanks for starting a separate thread on this. Some of us have the unrealistic hope that we'll be surprised when it's revealed that Loki was pretending to be Thanos all along and faked his own death yet again.

[The Folk Prophet]

43 minutes ago, unixknight said:

and it's not surprising that there won't be any more DCEU films from this iteration.

Which really makes a mess for them because they are doing more WW and likely more Aquaman...but they no longer belong to the DCEU??? What a mess they made.

[unixknight]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Which really makes a mess for them because they are doing more WW and likely more Aquaman...but they no longer belong to the DCEU??? What a mess they made.

They released Aquaman because it was already mostly finished anyway, but with the sequel said to be scheduled for December of 2022 I doubt it'll happen.  There will be another Wonder Woman, though this year.  I bet it'll be unrelated to any DCEU stuff though.

[anatess2]

Justice League trying to be Avengers issue:

• They started with Man of Steel and fresh off of Nolan's Batman - they are DARK, HEAVY movies.  Justice League suffered from bipolar disorder - having Superman and Batman as dark characters then spun the bottle to fall on Flash as the designated funny man to be like Avengers.  Big Fail.  The jokes all sound forced and Barry Allen suffered through delivering the stupid lines.  That actor is actually pretty good in Fantastic Beast although, that franchise is another train wreck.

[unixknight]

58 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Justice League trying to be Avengers issue:

• They started with Man of Steel and fresh off of Nolan's Batman - they are DARK, HEAVY movies.  Justice League suffered from bipolar disorder - having Superman and Batman as dark characters...

And that's the thing... The dichotomy between Superman and Batman is the whole point of putting them together.  They kinda sorta brushed against it in Batman v Superman with Superman having an issue with Batman's methods, but that was it.  No nobility vs. pragmatism dichotomy.  No light vs dark.  No nothing.  None of the things that made these two characters interesting when they're near each other exist.  

Now granted... in many previous Justice League media there was very little dichotomy as well, but in those examples it tended to be Batman who was lighter, like the Adam West version.  Since  the 1989 Batman movie, Batman has ben reasserted as a darker character.  That's fine.  Useful narrative choice.  But now it's like he's taking the whole DC  universe with him.   Forget Marvel, it's like the entire thing is trying to be Image comics instead of DC.

[Fether]

 how the DCU would create a successful series without copying the MCU is beyond me, but if they were to copy the MCU, I think they should have done it similar to the CW series, forget Superman ever existed, don’t make Batman so big and powerful from the beginning. 

I would love to see a good DCU. But I imagine it would be difficult.

is DC too “intense”, “cosmic” or “sciency”? 

You look at the MCU and two of the first heroes were born into highly relatable scenarios. The war in the Middle East and WW2. Most of the MCU movies are personal micro narratives where the outcome only effects the main character and a small amount of people on earth. Then the grand cosmic and high risk narratives are built upon characters that have already been flushed out.

Then you look at the DCU and it seems to all be cosmic and end of the world scenarios. And of course none of the characters being flushed out. ya watching these movies is like playing a video game while using cheat codes, or D&D and starting with maxed out stats and all the items you want. May Sound cool at first, but will never last.

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, unixknight said:

And that's the thing... The dichotomy between Superman and Batman is the whole point of putting them together.  They kinda sorta brushed against it in Batman v Superman with Superman having an issue with Batman's methods, but that was it.  No nobility vs. pragmatism dichotomy.  No light vs dark.  No nothing.  None of the things that made these two characters interesting when they're near each other exist.  

Now granted... in many previous Justice League media there was very little dichotomy as well, but in those examples it tended to be Batman who was lighter, like the Adam West version.  Since  the 1989 Batman movie, Batman has ben reasserted as a darker character.  That's fine.  Useful narrative choice.  But now it's like he's taking the whole DC  universe with him.   Forget Marvel, it's like the entire thing is trying to be Image comics instead of DC.

I could be wrong, but I almost feel like Batman should be almost an anti-hero. A good guy who’s methods you don’t agree with.

[NeuroTypical]

I thought Flash made a very good Peter Parker, thank you very much.

If anything, Bearded Steve Rogers was trying to be Batman.

 

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, Fether said:

forget Superman ever existed, don’t make Batman so big and powerful from the beginning.

How about abandon the hokey magical "super powers" altogether and write stories about flawed, mortal humans persevering undaunted through peril and thus accomplishing superhuman-seeming results?

Stupid suggestion. I'm embarrassed to have said anything. Never mind.

[NeuroTypical]

They already made that movie, Vort.  I think I'm the only person on earth who watched it.

[Fether]

44 minutes ago, Vort said:

How about abandon the hokey magical "super powers" altogether and write stories about flawed, mortal humans persevering undaunted through peril and thus accomplishing superhuman-seeming results?

Stupid suggestion. I'm embarrassed to have said anything. Never mind.

Say what you will. Superman is a broken hero. I can’t imagine how he could ever be portrayed well or be placed in a movie that his presence doesn’t ruin.

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

They already made that movie, Vort.  I think I'm the only person on earth who watched it.

My wife and I actually own that movie, and drag it out for viewing every couple of years. PMS Avenger is a force to be reckoned with.

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

Say what you will. Superman is a broken hero. I can’t imagine how he could ever be portrayed well or be placed in a movie that his presence doesn’t ruin.

Marvel wanted to get in on all that good stuff, so they created Captain Marvel. Judging by the Spiderman previews, she apparently will hereafter be referred to in every Marvel film as, "Too bad Captain Marvel isn't here to take care of this for us." That way, they get to have Captain Marvel, Superior Woman, without actually having to pay the actress to portray her. Win/win!

[NeuroTypical]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

My wife and I actually own that movie, and drag it out for viewing every couple of years. PMS Avenger is a force to be reckoned with.

"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveller

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." - The Shoveller

Sphinxisms:

• "You must lash out with every limb, like the octopus who plays the drums."
• "Learn to hide your strikes from your opponent and you'll more easily strike his hide."
• "When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack."

And my personal favorite:

• "We are number one! All others are number two, or lower."

[unixknight]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Say what you will. Superman is a broken hero. I can’t imagine how he could ever be portrayed well or be placed in a movie that his presence doesn’t ruin.

Broken in what way?

[Fether]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Broken in what way?

He has every super power one would ever need. Invincible, Super speed, flight, laser vision, frost breath, super strength, super hearing, time travel, x-ray vision and he is perfectly good.

[unixknight]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

He has every super power one would ever need. Invincible, Super speed, flight, laser vision, frost breath, super strength, super hearing, time travel, x-ray vision and he is perfectly good.

So why is that broken?  (I"m going somewhere with this, not just being facetious.)

[Fether]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

So why is that broken?  (I"m going somewhere with this, not just being facetious.)

Every movie has its plot holes and things that characters conveniently forget for the sake of the movie. But in every Superman movie, they nerf him down a ridiculous amount so that the movie doesn’t end in 5 minutes. The only realistic fight scene where he wasn't weakened for the sake of the plot is is fight With Zod in Man of Steel. Every HISHE involving superman points this out. In fact I would argue HISHE gives the most accurate representation of what a super hero of his ability would be like.

Watching Superman is like playing a video game with all the cheat codes on, but pretending you don’t have all the cheat codes on.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Fether

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

He has every super power one would ever need. Invincible, Super speed, flight, laser vision, frost breath, super strength, super hearing, time travel, x-ray vision and he is perfectly good.

Superman is just that: A super man. He's a Tolkienian elf. He is what men should be, what their ideal is. He is the figura Christi of the comic book world. He isn't The Punisher or Catwoman. Superman is not about examining flawed man in his mortal condition, but pondering what a man should and could be. Superman is "overpowered" only if you insist that he follow the typical comic book tropes. A good writer of Superman comic books or movies would recognize this and write stories to this effect

[Vort]

[Fether]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

Superman is just that: A super man. He's a Tolkienian elf. He is what men should be, what their ideal is. He is the figura Christi of the comic book world. He isn't The Punisher or Catwoman. Superman is not about examining flawed man in his mortal condition, but pondering what a man should and could be. Superman is "overpowered" only if you insist that he follow the typical comic book tropes. A good writer of Superman comic books or movies would recognize this and write stories to this effect

I actually do appreciate this. I think what he symbolizes and stands for is his greatest strength in story telling. I think he would do VERY well in a roll similar to what thor played in infinity war. Where all hope seemed lost and BOOM, the bifrost opens and Thor comes to save the day. I have difficulty seeing him playing any other other than that, and that event can’t just be given out freely in every movie, it has to be earned or it won’t have much of an effect. 

[unixknight]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I actually do appreciate this. I think what he symbolizes and stands for is his greatest strength in story telling. I think he would do VERY well in a roll similar to what thor played in infinity war. Where all hope seemed lost and BOOM, the bifrost opens and Thor comes to save the day. I have difficulty seeing him playing any other other than that, and that event can’t just be given out freely in every movie, it has to be earned or it won’t have much of an effect. 

I don't buy the argument a lot of people make that say "well Superman is so powerful you *know* he'll always win in the end 'cause he's just so OP.  That argument is garbage.  Nobody goes to *any* superhero movie not expecting the hero to win.  Did anybody really think there was a chance that Spider-Man was gonna lose to the Green Goblin?  Did anybody doubt that Batman would defeat Joker?

Anybody?

Of course not.  Superman's no different in that regard.  No good super hero movie is just about whether the hero is strong enough to save the day.  We know they are.  That's not what makes the story interesting.

The thing that makes Superman stories unique is a matter of scale, and what his options are.  That's it.  

Superman stories are at their best when they explore Superman as a being who knows perfectly well how powerful he is,  and his greatest struggle is in controlling the temptation to go too far.  Think of the end of the 1979 Superman movie.  What was the climax of the film?  Was it Superman battling Luthor?  Nope.  Was it stopping the nukes?  Nope.  That wasn't the climactic struggle.  The climax of the film was that moment when Superman had to make a choice.

"It is forbidden to alter the course of human events." - Jor-El

vs.

"One thing I know son, is that you're here for a reason."  -Jonathan Kent

Superman had a choice to make.  His powers had nothing to do with which choice was right.  He had to choose.  Kryptonian notions of power, or traditional American (dare I say it? Christian) values of mercy.  He chooses to believe he has a purpose for being here, and he goes back in time to stop the second nuke.  

So challenging Superman physically doesn't make an interesting Superman story.  It's the moral dilemmas.  This can be said of other superhero movies as well.  Didn't Spider-Man have to deal with dilemmas about how to use his abilities?  Uncle Ben said something very much like the lesson Jonathan Kent taught Clark:  "With great power comes great responsibility."  The Dark Knight was a film that was packed with moral dilemmas.  At their core, superhero movies aren't nail biters.  They're explorations of the human condition by exaggerating the kinds of moral questions and dilemmas we face all the time, packaged into brighter colors and wild action.

[SpiritDragon]

Sounds like the pendulum has swung too far since the days of shark repellent bat spray

 

I haven't seen the movie in this topic yet, but it sounds like they missed the boat on some comic relief. Granted audiences today may not appreciate a rubber shark that can't pierce human flesh - but somehow I still get a kick out of it anyway.