AbramM

Hey. I was talking to 2 LDS people at my college and they didn't believe that they are sinners. Do you believe you're a sinner?

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Hey,

I got talking to these 2 LDS guys at college and I was kind of interested in what they believe, because my Ex was LDS. I asked them if they believe they are a sinner? They gave me this look as if they were so offended and said they don't look at themselves as sinners. I asked them do they believe those who aren't saved are sinners and they said Jesus came to show us the way. I explained to them that we are still under God's Law and fall short of it every day, and that whilst Jesus' atonement frees us from the penalty of sin (death), it doesn't mean we are above God's Law and if we break it we are sinning. Then they said that through obedience it is possible to keep all of God's Law. At this point I doubted they understood what God's Law is and what living under it looks like so I offered to talk to them about it another time. 

I guess I have 2 questions for you. 

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

 

P.s I'm not trying to offend anyone by asking if you are a sinner. We all are ...

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9 minutes ago, AbramM said:

Hey,

I got talking to these 2 LDS guys at college and I was kind of interested in what they believe, because my Ex was LDS. I asked them if they believe they are a sinner? They gave me this look as if they were so offended and said they don't look at themselves as sinners. I asked them do they believe those who aren't saved are sinners and they said Jesus came to show us the way. I explained to them that we are still under God's Law and fall short of it every day, and that whilst Jesus' atonement frees us from the penalty of sin (death), it doesn't mean we are above God's Law and if we break it we are sinning. Then they said that through obedience it is possible to keep all of God's Law. At this point I doubted they understood what God's Law is and what living under it looks like so I offered to talk to them about it another time. 

I guess I have 2 questions for you. 

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

 

P.s I'm not trying to offend anyone by asking if you are a sinner. We all are ...

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don’t quite look at it in the dualistic way that many other Christians do.  I am simultaneously a saint and a sinner—imperfect, but at present redeemed at least from hopelessness; and the ongoing recipient of an ever-growing degree of divine grace that continues to transform me into a creature that can obey God’s laws with better rectitude and, in a coming day of salvation, will enable me to obey those laws completely. 

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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2 minutes ago, AbramM said:

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

You're falling victim to the semantic jungle.  You have to define your terms.

If you're asking a person "Have you ever sinned?" then the obvious answer would have to be "Yes."  But asking,"Are you a sinner?" is ambiguous.  The literal meaning is clear (i.e. a sinner is one who sins.  So if you've ever sinned, then you're a sinner).  But the common connotation is not so clear (i.e. a sinner is one who delights in sin and doesn't make any effort to repent).

The thing that we point out is that without the Savior, we're all on equal footing.  We all fall short of the glory of God.  And yes, we're all sinners.

But because of the Savior, we have different levels of sin.  Sins of omission are often not as serious as sins of commission.  Premeditated sins are more serious than spontaneous sins.  Violent sins are more serious than passive sins.  etc. etc.  And through the Atonement, there are some things that we have to go through a process to repent of.  But others don't require as much to repent of.

With that background, your question without context, to an unsuspecting individual without understanding your motivation or your background or your exact definitions of your words would probably not want to say they were sinners.

But if you're asking from a literal, exact, gospel, doctrinal, definitional, legalistic answer to the question as YOU intended it:  Yes, we're all sinners.

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1 hour ago, AbramM said:

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

I think of myself as a lifetime repenter than a lifetime sinner.  

Looking at myself as a sinner rather than a repenter is too... Roman Catholic.  A significant portion of my late teen years was spent healing from the mental basket case that I found myself in from my godmother (who is a great and wonderful Godly person) telling me she's going to <insert physical mortification activity here> for my sins because I'm a sinner.

In any case, you might have had a misunderstanding with your friends.  Usually, when the LDS are asked "are you a sinner?" they interpret that as Original Sin.  We believe that we are sinners by our own failures and not by Adam's transgression.

 

Quote

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

No Christian worthy of the name believes that.  But, you might have had a misunderstanding with your friends.  There is God's law given to Moses (Mosaic Law) and then there's the new and everlasting covenant and then there's the covenants of the restored gospel.  We don't live under Mosaic Law anymore.

Edited by anatess2

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12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We don't live under Mosaic Law anymore.

If you love God and love your neighbor than you do live under God's law. As Jesus said he came to fulfil the Law of Moses. 

 

15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I think of myself as a lifetime repenter than a lifetime sinner.  

That's fine but we are all sinners. 

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1 hour ago, AbramM said:

Hey,

I got talking to these 2 LDS guys at college and I was kind of interested in what they believe, because my Ex was LDS. I asked them if they believe they are a sinner? They gave me this look as if they were so offended and said they don't look at themselves as sinners. I asked them do they believe those who aren't saved are sinners and they said Jesus came to show us the way. I explained to them that we are still under God's Law and fall short of it every day, and that whilst Jesus' atonement frees us from the penalty of sin (death), it doesn't mean we are above God's Law and if we break it we are sinning. Then they said that through obedience it is possible to keep all of God's Law. At this point I doubted they understood what God's Law is and what living under it looks like so I offered to talk to them about it another time. 

I guess I have 2 questions for you. 

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

 

P.s I'm not trying to offend anyone by asking if you are a sinner. We all are ...

Hi again @AbramM.  

What do you call a person who had/still has the inclination to sin, but has come to accept Christ and be washed in the blood of the Lamb?    

LDS Christians acknowledge that each of us has completely fallen short of perfection, and could never remotely be perfect by ourselves.  Christ however, is Perfect.  And through His power/Atonement, we are able to become clean and made perfect.  That's not a license to sin (quite the opposite!) but a call to follow Him.  Obviously during this mortal life we're still going to screw up regularly, still need our repentance, and our Savior.  Christ will always be our Savior. 

Edited by Jane_Doe

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1 hour ago, Mores said:

But because of the Savior, we have different levels of sin.  Sins of omission are often not as serious as sins of commission.  Premeditated sins are more serious than spontaneous sins.  Violent sins are more serious than passive sins.  etc. etc.  And through the Atonement, there are some things that we have to go through a process to repent of.  But others don't require as much to repent of.

Apart from Blaspheming the holy spirit in God's eyes all sins are the same. James 2 verse 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

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10 minutes ago, AbramM said:
26 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I think of myself as a lifetime repenter than a lifetime sinner.  

That's fine but we are all sinners. 

If you are seeking to understand what your LDS acquaintances said and probably meant, then the answers in this thread will help you. If you're seeking to establish your definitions of words as the final, definitive truth, then to be blunt, this whole thread is a waste of everyone's time, including yours.

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12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

What do you call a person who had/still has the inclination to sin, but has come to accept Christ and be washed in the blood of the Lamb?    

They are a sinner like everyone else. 

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS Christians acknowledge that each of us has completely fallen short of perfection, and could never remotely be perfect by ourselves.  Christ however, is Perfect.  And through His power/Atonement, we are able to become clean and made perfect.  That it's a license to sin (quite the opposite!) but a call to follow Him.  Obviously during this mortal life we're still going to screw up regularly, still need our repentance, and our Savior.  Christ will always be our Savior. 

Let me explain. Christ's atonement 100% means we are not going to be punished for our sin, hallelujah. Christ's atonement does not mean that once we have accepted Christ as our saviour we are not guilty of sinning. That is what I was trying to explain to them. 

Edited by AbramM

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3 minutes ago, Vort said:

If you are seeking to understand what your LDS acquaintances said and probably meant, then the answers in this thread will help you. If you're seeking to establish your definitions of words as the final, definitive truth, then to be blunt, this whole thread is a waste of everyone's time, including yours.

Friend, if you do not believe you are a sinner because you are LDS or a Christian then I disagree with you. I'm sorry if that offends you but it is the truth. If you believe your are no longer a sinner then explain your viewpoint. Instead of making sarcastic posts and wasting my time. 

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7 minutes ago, AbramM said:

They are a sinner like everyone else. 

Let me explain. Christ's atonement 100% means we are not going to be punished for our sin, hallelujah. Christ's atonement does not mean that once we have accepted Christ as our saviour we are not guilty of sinning. 

LDS Christians 100% acknowledge that a person who has accepted Christ still falls on their face and sins.  We also 100% acknowledge Christ's cleansing power.  Antanass's words of "lifetime repenter" is a great way of putting it.

The folks you were talking to on campus probably misunderstood your question, interpreting it to mean that you were asking "are you aware you're not saved and don't have a relationship with Christ?".    It's a miscommunication.  

Edited by Jane_Doe

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

Okay, waste of time it is, then.

Who gives you the right to be so arrogant? If you don't have anything to contribute then remain silent. 

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS Christians 100% acknowledge that a person who has accepted Christ still falls on their face and sins.  We also 100% acknowledge Christ's cleansing power.  Antanass's words of "lifetime repenter" is a great way of putting it.

Oh ma'am repentance is a whole other topic. I'm a fallen human just like you and everyone else who has ever been on Earth besides Christ. Yes the fact that we choose to repent separates us from those who are unsaved it doesn't make us any less of a sinner. 

 

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The folks you were talking to on campus probably misunderstood your question, interpreting it to mean that you were asking "are you aware you're not saved and don't have a relationship with Christ?".  

So the people I was speaking to believed that they were living without sin. They said through obedience it is possible to not sin. Do you believe that? 

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1 minute ago, AbramM said:

Oh ma'am repentance is a whole other topic. I'm a fallen human just like you and everyone else who has ever been on Earth besides Christ. Yes the fact that we choose to repent separates us from those who are unsaved it doesn't make us any less of a sinner. 

 

So the people I was speaking to believed that they were living without sin. They said through obedience it is possible to not sin. Do you believe that? 

NO!!!!  That is totally incorrect!!  You're completely misunderstanding things, to the level of actually being offensive.  

There is 100% the acknowledgement that each of us gets dirty every single day.  But there's also that acknowledgment that we get cleaned on a very regular basis too.  So asking "are you dirty" can cause a lot of miscommunication.  Yes, I get dirty, but yes I get clean (through Christ).  The folks on campus would have told you the exact same thing if they understood what you were asking.

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2 hours ago, AbramM said:

I guess I have 2 questions for you. 
Do you believe that you are a sinner?
Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

Yes, and No.

Welcome to the site!

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And, just as a reminder, in order for any of us to post here, we agreed to the site rules.  Which include:

Quote

1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere.

2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Third Hour is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Third Hour are welcome to participate and be a member of Third Hour. Keep in mind that anything posted, uploaded, or otherwise displayed on the site should be understandable to friends of other faiths as well as to members. Please define any LDS vocabulary that friends of other faiths may not understand (i.e. Mutual, Relief Society, and Deacon.)

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

 

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6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

NO!!!!  That is totally incorrect!!  You're completely misunderstanding things, to the level of actually being offensive.  

There is 100% the acknowledgement that each of us gets dirty every single day.  But there's also that acknowledgment that we get cleaned on a very regular basis too.  So asking "are you dirty" can cause a lot of miscommunication.  Yes, I get dirty, but yes I get clean (through Christ).  The folks on campus would have told you the exact same thing if they understood what you were asking.

Okay I didn't mean to offend you by calling you a sinner I even said that in my question that I'm not trying to offend anyone. I'm honestly not trying to convince anyone that they are a sinner because God's Law should do that, nobody should need anyone to tell them they are a sinner if they believe God's Law. 

The people I spoke to on campus clearly said that it is possible to follow all the commandments. That is when I told them that they don't understand God's Law. If you believe you can ever get to a point in this mortal life where you are free from sinning, then please tell me why you believe that. If you don't believe that then that's fine, I don't believe that either. 

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2 hours ago, AbramM said:

Hey,

I got talking to these 2 LDS guys at college and I was kind of interested in what they believe, because my Ex was LDS. I asked them if they believe they are a sinner? They gave me this look as if they were so offended and said they don't look at themselves as sinners. I asked them do they believe those who aren't saved are sinners and they said Jesus came to show us the way. I explained to them that we are still under God's Law and fall short of it every day, and that whilst Jesus' atonement frees us from the penalty of sin (death), it doesn't mean we are above God's Law and if we break it we are sinning. Then they said that through obedience it is possible to keep all of God's Law. At this point I doubted they understood what God's Law is and what living under it looks like so I offered to talk to them about it another time. 

I guess I have 2 questions for you. 

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

 

P.s I'm not trying to offend anyone by asking if you are a sinner. We all are ...

I served my mission in Texas, so I immediately recognized this as a "non LDS" question. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this question with the rhetorical answer, "All have sinned and have fallen short..." yada yada.

This is more of a cultural thing. If you ask a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints if they're a sinner they're most likely to interpret the question as asking them, "Do you embrace sin?" or "would one conclude you are a sinner by watching your actions?"

Other posts here have already addressed the "I am a repenter" rather than "I am a sinner." You have to admit though that, "I am a sinner" is a bit defeatist, like, "Oh well.... we all sin so we can't really help ourselves." In fact, if we're coming from a Baptist point of view, then this is exactly the point. You will sin no matter what so you better get saved. This line of thinking does not apply to LDS as we believe salvation requires effort - continual repentance - and though we don't expect to be perfect (aka not a sinner) in this life, we do believe we must never give up and must never become complacent but remain vigilant to the end. Of course, we struggle with this perfection complex as is evident in populations with high concentrations of LDS.

Edited by Alaris

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Here is some plain explanations of what the Church of Jesus Christ believes about sin and repentance.

https://www.lds.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng

Quote

What is sin? James said, “To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin” (James 4:17). John described sin as “all unrighteousness” (1 John 5:17) and “the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4).

That is why the Lord said, “All men, everywhere, must repent” (Moses 6:57). Except for Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life, everyone who has lived upon the earth has sinned. Our Heavenly Father in His great love has provided us this opportunity to repent of our sins.

 

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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yes, and No.

Welcome to the site!

Actually I did post on this site before 

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10 minutes ago, Alaris said:

 

Other posts here have already addressed the "I am a repenter" rather than "I am a sinner." You have to admit though that, "I am a sinner" is a bit defeatist, like, "Oh well.... we all sin so we can't really help ourselves." In fact, if we're coming from a Baptist point of view, then this is exactly the point. You will sin no matter what so you better get saved. This line of thinking does not apply to LDS as we believe salvation requires effort - continual repentance - and though we don't expect to be perfect (aka not a sinner) in this life, we do believe we must never give up and must never become complacent but remain vigilant to the end. Of course, we struggle with this perfection complex as is evident in populations with high concentrations of LDS.

Great answer.

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1 minute ago, AbramM said:

Okay I didn't mean to offend you by calling you a sinner I even said that in my question that I'm not trying to offend anyone.

The offense part is not in acknowledging that each person falls on their face and gets dirty daily.  That's just a fact.

What is offensive is that you don't seem to be listening to our answers, explaining how "yes of course we get dirty, but we also get clean."  Nobody likes to be ignored, and you really seem to be grossly  misunderstanding things here and not listening when we try to correct that misunderstanding (such as below).  

1 minute ago, AbramM said:

The people I spoke to on campus clearly said that it is possible to follow all the commandments. 

Through Christ and His perfection!  Not through our own solo efforts. 

1 minute ago, AbramM said:

If you believe you can ever get to a point in this mortal life where you are free from sinning

That is NOT what is believed.   What is believed is that we can be made perfect through Christ.

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5 minutes ago, Alaris said:

You have to admit though that, "I am a sinner" is a bit defeatist, like, "Oh well.... we all sin so we can't really help ourselves." In fact, if we're coming from a Baptist point of view, then this is exactly the point. You will sin no matter what so you better get saved. This line of thinking does not apply to LDS as we believe salvation requires effort - continual repentance - and though we don't expect to be perfect (aka not a sinner) in this life, we do believe we must never give up and must never become complacent but remain vigilant to the end. Of course, we struggle with this perfection complex as is evident in populations with high concentrations of LDS.

It depends on how you look at God's Law God gave me his Law to show me my need for a Saviour. God didn't give me the Law to condemn me to Hell. Me admiting my sin isn't defeatest, because sin will destroy you. Me being convicted of my sin is a Mercy from God  if I had no conviction of my sin then I would not be saved. So if me admitting I am a sinner makes me a defeatest to you then hallelujah, I always want to be convicted of my sin. 

Hmm, it doesn't sound to me like you know the Baptist point of view at all, which is fine you're not a Baptist. I do believe in perseverance of the saints by the way. 

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