Hey. I was talking to 2 LDS people at my college and they didn't believe that they are sinners. Do you believe you're a sinner?


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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Through Christ and His perfection!  Not through our own solo efforts. 

To be clear. Do you believe that is achievable to be perfect in this life?

For sure I believe in heaven I wont sin. Although, on Earth I always sin.  

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22 minutes ago, AbramM said:

The people I spoke to on campus clearly said that it is possible to follow all the commandments. That is when I told them that they don't understand God's Law. If you believe you can ever get to a point in this mortal life where you are free from sinning, then please tell me why you believe that. If you don't believe that then that's fine, I don't believe that either. 

As a matter of practicality, I don’t know that I anticipate reaching a “perfect day” in mortality; nor do I have much faith that anyone else will.  But if I take Jesus’ statement that “with God all things are possible” at face value, then it would seem I’m bound to at least acknowledge the possibility.

What I do believe, as a practical matter, is that with the Lord’s help I can be better today than I was yesterday; and better yet tomorrow. 

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16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Great answer

Yeah callimg all Baptists defeatests because we feel convicted of our sin (which is the first step to repentance) constitutes as a great answer 😂

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18 minutes ago, AbramM said:

It depends on how you look at God's Law God gave me his Law to show me my need for a Saviour. God didn't give me the Law to condemn me to Hell. Me admiting my sin isn't defeatest, because sin will destroy you. Me being convicted of my sin is a Mercy from God  if I had no conviction of my sin then I would not be saved. So if me admitting I am a sinner makes me a defeatest to you then hallelujah, I always want to be convicted of my sin. 

Hmm, it doesn't sound to me like you know the Baptist point of view at all, which is fine you're not a Baptist. I do believe in perseverance of the saints by the way. 

So you are a Baptist. Lucky guess ;)

Joking aside, we agree on Law requiring a need for a Savior and that the purpose of law is not to condemn us to hell - totally agreed :) 2 Nephi 2 is a fantastic read here. Here are a couple of excerpts:

2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.
6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

You are also right about conviction of sin - we tend to call that "Godly sorrow" which is different than the one who is sorry only because they were caught. Sorrow unto salvation.

We label ourselves children of God and believe in a divine destiny. I am aware of Baptist's beliefs as far as heavenly destiny. This difference in perspective is also why we don't go around calling ourselves sinners as our destiny is to overcome sin entirely through Jesus Christ - and to perfect ourselves through Him (which won't happen in this life. This life is but a step on that path.)

I think another good example here is many protestants celebrate the death of Jesus Christ where members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints focus on his life - and the fact he is alive today. We equate the consequence of sin as spiritual death, or separation from God, just as physical death is the death of the body and is separation from this world. We believe we can overcome both through Jesus Christ - liberated from both spiritual and physical death. We believe this liberation from sin can happen daily and weekly as we partake of the sacred sacrament.

I don't think you meant "I always want to be convicted of my sin" - An eternal convict?

Edited by Alaris
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2 hours ago, AbramM said:

Do you believe that you are a sinner?

Do you believe that because you are saved you no longer have to live under God's law?

Have I sinned, yes but I wouldn't refer to myself as a 'sinner' just as I wouldn't refer to myself as a jerk, a nobody, an idiot, etc. Negative labels aren't helpful or encouraging. 

There isn't a free pass for anyone even if they consider themselves saved.

(re: your Ex - hope you're doing ok given that you obviously called things off)

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1 hour ago, AbramM said:

Who gives you the right to be so arrogant? If you don't have anything to contribute then remain silent. 

Nah. I think I'll keep talking.

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Folks, @AbramM simply knows way more than we do, and is enlightened—some would say "woke"—beyond our poor ability. This is why he is qualified to get on the "Learn about the Mormon* Church" subforum and lecture us about our improper doctrine.

*Isn't it time we renamed the forum?

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6 minutes ago, Alaris said:

This difference in perspective is also why we don't go around calling ourselves sinners as our destiny is to overcome sin entirely through Jesus Christ - and to perfect ourselves through Him (which won't happen in this life. This life is but a step on that path.)

I have already overcome sin through my faith in Christ. Johm 8 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 

The curse of sin has no power over me, the Lord Jesus set me free. Hallelujah! That doesn't mean I am not a sinner. I will always sin. 

14 minutes ago, Alaris said:

I think another good example here is many protestants celebrate the death of Jesus Christ where members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints focus on his life - and the fact he is alive today

Hmm, I don't think you have anywhere the grasping of protestant belief you are claiming to have. We celebrate the atonement (his death) and the victory over the grave ( his resurectiton).  We believe he is alive today. Of course I celebrate his sacrifice if Christ hadn't of died I'd be going to Hell and if he wasn't resurrected is be going to Hell. So yes I celebrate Christ's death. 

 

18 minutes ago, Alaris said:

hink you meant "I always want to be convicted of my sin" - An eternal convict?

As long as I am a sinner I do want to be convicted of my sin. And I pray God will be merciful to me and always convict me of my sin. Lest I fall short in the latter days. 

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8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Folks, @AbramM simply knows way more than we do, and is enlightened—some would say "woke"—beyond our poor ability. This is why he is qualified to get on the "Learn about the Mormon* Church" subforum and lecture us about our improper doctrine.

*Isn't it time we renamed the forum?

Take the hint man and be quiet. I have not said anything about your doctrine. 

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1 minute ago, AbramM said:

You should remain silent 

Thanks for the profound insight, friend.

Mods, don't you think you should do something about Mr. Awesome here lecturing Latter-day Saints about the incorrectness of their beliefs, and on the "Learn about the Mormon Church" subforum, no less?

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38 minutes ago, AbramM said:

To be clear. Do you believe that is achievable to be perfect in this life?

For sure I believe in heaven I wont sin. Although, on Earth I always sin.  

I will fall on my face and get dirty (aka sin) until the day I physically die.  No question about it. 

However, I will also die 100% clean, because of Christ's cleansing power.  Yes, I sin, but I also repent, and am washed clean. 

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7 minutes ago, AbramM said:

I have already overcome sin through my faith in Christ. Johm 8 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 

The curse of sin has no power over me, the Lord Jesus set me free. Hallelujah!

That is exactly what everyone else here is telling you.  

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17 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

Have I sinned, yes but I wouldn't refer to myself as a 'sinner' just as I wouldn't refer to myself as a jerk, a nobody, an idiot, etc. Negative labels aren't helpful or encouraging. 

There isn't a free pass for anyone even if they consider themselves saved.

(re: your Ex - hope you're doing ok given that you obviously called things off)

Ma'am I think that being honest about being a sinner is not shameful. 1 Timothy 1: 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Paul was encouraging us and we should do the same with ourselves by acknowledging we are sinners and the same to others by saying we are sinners.

 

The good news is it works both ways. I used to have a top that said "God loves everyone but I am his favorite" and on the back it said "So are you". You are God's favorite as am I and so it that guy Vort who is antagonizing me. 

We can say we are sinners and we are saved and we are God's favorite all at once :)

I'm doing okay thank you. Time is a great healer and so is Christ 

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Thanks for the profound insight, friend.

Mods, don't you think you should do something about Mr. Awesome here lecturing Latter-day Saints about the incorrectness of their beliefs, and on the "Learn about the Mormon Church" subforum, no less?

I don't think you can point out anywhere where I have said anything against your beliefs. 

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4 minutes ago, AbramM said:

I have already overcome sin through my faith in Christ. Johm 8 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 

The curse of sin has no power over me, the Lord Jesus set me free. Hallelujah! That doesn't mean I am not a sinner. I will always sin. 

Hmm, I don't think you have anywhere the grasping of protestant belief you are claiming to have. We celebrate the atonement (his death) and the victory over the grave ( his resurectiton).  We believe he is alive today. Of course I celebrate his sacrifice if Christ hadn't of died I'd be going to Hell and if he wasn't resurrected is be going to Hell. So yes I celebrate Christ's death. 

 

As long as I am a sinner I do want to be convicted of my sin. And I pray God will be merciful to me and always convict me of my sin. Lest I fall short in the latter days. 

Once we "high five" in the Kingdom of Heaven, I'll acknowledge your having overcome sin through your faith in Jesus Christ. A full reading of the scriptures (Bible to the protestant) will lead you to conclude you can be saved while in this corrupted flesh. 

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

I'm not trying to dig at you or attack your beliefs but help you understand the answer to the question you posed in the OP. The mere fact you said, "So yes I celebrate Christ's death" - Again, culturally you'll never (nor next to never) hear a member of our church say something like that. Are we eternally grateful for his sacrifice? Yes. Culturally, we have learned that reverence is the appropriate tone when speaking of the greatest sacrifice rather than celebration as the word celebration can denote wine (martinelli) glasses clinking.

OK, semantics on your last sentence, but again these are big cultural differences that come from differences in the underlying doctrine. You've already mentioned in a separate post that once you're in heaven you won't be sinning any more so "always" doesn't apply. Again, this is a difference in perspective across different cultures of religion. If you're continuing to pray for mercy, then that seems like you haven't been saved yet - or have overcome sin as you have claimed.

If you're here to understand the differences I am happy to help. If you are here to bash, well I can do that do but that usually doesn't produce any decent fruit. ;)

 

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

That is exactly what everyone else here is telling you.  

I have received mixed messages haha. 

The impression I get from you is that you don't believe you are above God's Law and you don't choose to identify as a sinner. For whatever reason 

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1 minute ago, AbramM said:

I have received mixed messages haha. 

The impression I get from you is that you don't believe you are above God's Law and you don't choose to identify as a sinner. For whatever reason 

That's because you're misunderstanding and getting caught up on cultural words.  If you phrase the question as "do you believe that you will still have the inclination to sin, and still commit some sins that need repenting of until the day you die", you'll get a 100% chorus of "yes, of course".  

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19 minutes ago, AbramM said:

I have already overcome sin through my faith in Christ. Johm 8 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 

The curse of sin has no power over me, the Lord Jesus set me free. Hallelujah! That doesn't mean I am not a sinner. I will always sin. 

What trips some of us up is the incongruity between claiming to have “overcome” sin while, in the next breath, acknowledging that you still sin, and are likely to do so for the rest of your life, and (implicitly) that you have no obligation or expectation that the situation will improve before the resurrection.  To lots of us, it seems you are really just saying that you can do whatever you want and Jesus will let you get away with it; and that the only really damnable activity in this world is affirmatively trying to avoid sin because doing so constitutes a rejection of God’s grace.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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10 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What trips some of us up is the incongruity between claiming to have “overcome” sin while, in the next breath, acknowledging that you still sin, and are likely to do so for the rest of your life, and (implicitly) that you have no obligation or expectation that the situation will improve before the resurrection.  To lots of us, it seems you are really just saying that you can do whatever you want and Jesus will let you get away with it; and that the only really damnable activity in this world is affirmatively trying to avoid sin because doing so constitutes a rejection of God’s grace.

Oops - I didn't mean to post this. I'll just say that Just_A_Guy has encapsulated how the Baptist beliefs appear to a Latter-day Saint. Though we believe we can secure promises in the world to come, we never believe we are absolved of sin completely in this life where future sins are acceptable.

Edited by Alaris
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4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What trips some of us up is the incongruity between claiming to have “overcome” sin while, in the next breath, acknowledging that you still sin, and are likely to do so for the rest of your life, and (implicitly) that you have no obligation or expectation that the situation will improve before the resurrection.  To lots of us, it seems you are really just saying that you can do whatever you want and Jesus will let you get away with it; and that the only really damnable activity in this world is affirmatively trying to avoid sin because doing so constitutes a rejection of God’s grace.

You misunderstood me, I have overcome the wages of sin which is death through my faith in Jesus Christ. However, I still sin because I'm a fallen person same as you. Every night when I go to bed I acknowledge that I did not Love God properly today and I did not Love my neighbor with a Christ like love today. Yet in the morning I wake up with thanksgiving in my heart because I am saved and as it says in Lamentations 3 

22 It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

Every day is a clean slate with the L9rd when you are saved and are trying to be better. Do you know the story of Jesus and the Fig Tree in Matthew? 

I don't want to be like that Fig Tree that Jesus destroys I want to bare fruit in my life that pleases the Lord. Will I do that some days? Yes. Some days I won't because I'm not perfect and in this life I never will be, but I want to live God's Law the best I can. 

  

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Just now, AbramM said:

You misunderstood me, I have overcome the wages of sin which is death through my faith in Jesus Christ. However, I still sin because I'm a fallen person same as you. Every night when I go to bed I acknowledge that I did not Love God properly today and I did not Love my neighbor with a Christ like love today. Yet in the morning I wake up with thanksgiving in my heart because I am saved and as it says in Lamentations 3 

22 It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

Every day is a clean slate with the L9rd when you are saved and are trying to be better. Do you know the story of Jesus and the Fig Tree in Matthew? 

I don't want to be like that Fig Tree that Jesus destroys I want to bare fruit in my life that pleases the Lord. Will I do that some days? Yes. Some days I won't because I'm not perfect and in this life I never will be, but I want to live God's Law the best I can. 

  

I think that we can all agree on the following points:

- Naturally, each of us have the inclination to sin, and we regularly sin.

- We each need to accept Christ desperately, and to repent of those sins. 

- Even after a person accept Christ, each of us have the inclination to sin, and we regularly sin.  This should be less all around -- we do strive to follow Christ's commands and He empowers us to be better.  But the process of total sanctification is not likely going to be 100% complete in this mortal life.  We each still need regular repentance and to continue to strive follow Him.

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13 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

That's because you're misunderstanding and getting caught up on cultural words.  If you phrase the question as "do you believe that you will still have the inclination to sin, and still commit some sins that need repenting of until the day you die", you'll get a 100% chorus of "yes, of course".  

What did I misunderstand? I literally just said you don't like to refer to yourself as a sinner  which is fine . I think that when the Apostle Paul refers to himself as the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1 15, it's incredible and so encouraging to me. That I am more than happy to refer to myself as a sinner, if it will encourage other and besides it encourages me. If you don't want to that is fine I'm not saying everyone has to wear a t-shirt saying I'm a sinner saved by grace. But it sounds like we agree that we are all sinners

 

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