Unleash Your Inner Hero -- to overcome porn


Guest LiterateParakeet
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Guest LiterateParakeet

This is an infomercial, but it doesn't matter because it's hillarious!  And I think the product Covenant Eyes is a great idea.  I showed this to my 13 and 17 year old boys, with the excuse that it's funny, but really I just wanted to slip in another reminder that porn is one of Satan's traps that once you get snared, it's hard to get out of.  (Don't get me wrong....I talk to my boys about porn all the time, that's why I was trying to be sneaky, LOL!)  Anyway, the point is this might be a good one to share with someone you care about....

https://vimeo.com/329334914

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For me, porn was like a black hole, and I was stuck. What Christ did was pull me out, restoring my ability to choose. But porn is still a black hole. If I get near it, chances are I'll get pulled in. But at least now I have a choice to stay away from it. What didn't help me was that the church essentially taught me to be scared of it or by making me feel shame. I felt shame because they told all these stories about hurt wives and children, and if I watched porn, it meant I didn't care about that and was a bad person. Porn, in reality, is a small thing. The God of creation comprehends all things, and He counsels man about all his choices. Rather than fear porn, one of many choices available to man, we should accept that God has cleared us of the law and we are free to make mistakes and to learn without shame and without giving undue power to the devil through fear.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
17 hours ago, LePeel said:

For me, porn was like a black hole, and I was stuck. What Christ did was pull me out, restoring my ability to choose. But porn is still a black hole. If I get near it, chances are I'll get pulled in. But at least now I have a choice to stay away from it. What didn't help me was that the church essentially taught me to be scared of it or by making me feel shame. I felt shame because they told all these stories about hurt wives and children, and if I watched porn, it meant I didn't care about that and was a bad person. Porn, in reality, is a small thing. The God of creation comprehends all things, and He counsels man about all his choices. Rather than fear porn, one of many choices available to man, we should accept that God has cleared us of the law and we are free to make mistakes and to learn without shame and without giving undue power to the devil through fear.

Thanks for sharing LePeel.  I agree that shame is not helpful.  However, I would say that it is the culture that does this not the church.  The Doctrine of the Church is Christ's doctrine.  Unhelpful shaming practices come from culture, often well-meaning and well-intended, but still harmful.  

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Thank you @LiterateParakeet.  That was pretty funny and a great way to take some of the shame away from talking about porn.  It's incredible how invasive and pervasive it is while at the same time, how taboo it is to talk about.  I had/have great parents, but I do wish they'd talked about and prepared me better for fighting porn.  I don't know if they didn't realize how easy it was to find or if they just didn't know how to talk about it.  

Does anyone here use Covenant Eyes, or other services?  Do you have suggestions for which one to pick?

Thanks!

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Nice idea - and good to see it presented by someone who really was a porn addict, not someone who says he "never did porn 'coz Jesus".

But I can't help being a bit skeptical; how long before that wheedling voice tells you to dig out the ancient tablet from the back of your cupboard (that you never bothered to put Covenant Eyes on - ostensibly because you never thought you'd use it again) and engage in a bit of naughtiness "just this once" while your wife is off at her PCC meeting and the kids are at their Judo?

Yes - if you're as hopeless a liar as I am, you may find it difficult to keep a straight face next time you meet your "ally", but you can always avoid him. And in any case, the guilty conscience is just as good a monitor whether you have Covenant Eyes or not.

P.S. I like Hamster Man best.

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Guest LiterateParakeet
On 5/13/2019 at 9:23 AM, dprh said:

 Does anyone here use Covenant Eyes, or other services?  Do you have suggestions for which one to pick?

Thanks!

I'm sorry your parents didn't warn/prepare you. I have five sons, and I talk to the younger ones because one of the older ones struggled with it.  I didn't talk to the older ones because I had no idea how pervasive it is.  

Anyway, my husband loving helped my son by meeting with him regularly and talking much like I think Covenant Eyes is suggesting.  It helped.

So I like Covenant Eyes for that reason, but also because of a TED talk. (Below) 

I understand what Jaime is saying and in a weak moment someone might do that, but I think if that person is serious about overcoming porn he or she* would eventually come clean to their ally.

*the other thing parents need to know is that girls can and are becoming addicted to porn.  

 

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1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

So I like Covenant Eyes for that reason, but also because of a TED talk. (Below) 

Very interesting talk. It takes a brave man to say stuff like that.

It puts me very much in mind of a case that hit the newspapers a few years ago - a guy called Tudor-Miles had had his home raided by police. They took away his PC to look for evidence of - well, whatever they were looking for evidence of - didn't find it, but DID find some pornographic images of adult women Photoshopped to look like teenage girls. He was tried, and sentenced to 15 months for "creating and possessing indecent images".

Now its hard to find a lot of sympathy for Tudor-Miles (though I suppose as Christians we should do our best). He was a creepy customer with a string of convictions for real sex crimes, including raping an 11-year-old girl at knifepoint. And whether creating fake kiddie-porn really deserves a prison sentence, one could hardly call what he was doing "very healthy".

On the other hand, the judge said in sentencing (I forget the exact words, but this is the gist of it): "The enjoyment of child nudity is obviously still part of your make-up, so I am sentencing you to a further custodial sentence".

I daresay it really was "still part of his makeup", but was giving him yet another prison sentence - especially for something which did nobody any harm but himself - really going to change that?

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24 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

On the other hand, the judge said in sentencing (I forget the exact words, but this is the gist of it): "The enjoyment of child nudity is obviously still part of your make-up, so I am sentencing you to a further custodial sentence".

In the US, we punish people for their actions, not their thoughts.

Or at least, that's what we tell outsiders. The reality is that "thought crimes" are punished all the time, most visibly in cases of so-called hate crimes. The US has been the world's great hope for the last century, a beacon of freedom and possibility. How discouraging to see the rank hypocrisy and moral decay behind that mask.

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21 minutes ago, Vort said:

Or at least, that's what we tell outsiders. The reality is that "thought crimes" are punished all the time, most visibly in cases of so-called hate crimes. The US has been the world's great hope for the last century, a beacon of freedom and possibility. How discouraging to see the rank hypocrisy and moral decay behind that mask.

Every idol has feet of clay.

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Shame is underrated. I bet no other emotion in the human makeup has been so effective at discouraging people from doing shameful things.

I, for one, would not want to live in a world where people truly didn't feel shame. I think the technical term for people like that is "sociopathic".

Edited by Vort
Incorporating TFP's feedback
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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

I wonder if Covenant Eyes works? If it does, I wonder if the Church is incorporating it (or considering doing so) in conjunction with its twelve-step program?

It's a fairly effective system. Porn thrives in darkness and, by making sure someone you know and trust is always aware of what you are doing, it gives you the tools to help resist the temptation. It's not a perfect system, nothing is, but it really would be a helpful system for anyone struggling with addiciton or looking for something to help protect their kids.

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6 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

It's a fairly effective system. Porn thrives in darkness and, by making sure someone you know and trust is always aware of what you are doing, it gives you the tools to help resist the temptation. It's not a perfect system, nothing is, but it really would be a helpful system for anyone struggling with addiciton or looking for something to help protect their kids.

You know, I wonder how much our modern isolationist culture perpetuates all sorts of unhealthy practices, of which secret pornography consumption is just one example. I'm a middle-aged man, and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many really close male friends (not family) I have had over my adult life. And I would not use up all my fingers.

My best friend is without any doubt my wife; but as @anatess2 would likely say, that's not necessarily a good thing. If I had a problem with pornography consumption, would I talk about it with my wife? I can't say for sure, but...well, yes, I can say for pretty darn sure. I cannot imagine discussing such a thing with my wife. Confessing? Possibly. Discussing? Asking for help? Seeking guidance and strength? Nope nope nope nope nope. Not on your life. It would never happen.

My wife loves me better than anyone else in this world loves me, maybe including my own mother, but I seriously doubt she would even have the capability to offer me whatever support I would need in that situation. "Hey, honey, I've got a problem looking at pictures of naked women who aren't you. Can you give me a hand with that? Maybe offer some moral support and be a listening ear for me?" I mean, I almost laugh at the thought.

But it's much wider than pornography (not to minimize that curse on the human population). My Muslim friend whom I have mentioned many times used to tell me about his intimate friendships with certain other men and how valuable they were to him. Men, how much richer and deeper would our lives be if we had a half-dozen such intimate male friends, or three, or two, or even one? The Bible talks about this aspect of intimate male friendship and love, yet it's so totally unknown to our culture that many who read the Bible actually think it's talking about homosexuality. I have heard many people say that David and Jonathan were "lovers". These people have no clue, and I think most of us don't, either.

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44 minutes ago, Vort said:

Shame is underrated. I bet no other emotion in the human makeup has been so effective at discouraging people from doing shameful things.

I, for one, would not want to live in a world where people truly didn't feel shame. I think the technical term for people like that is "psychopathic".

This is probably just an issue with semantics, but to me, shame is something we should avoid.  It is not good.  Guilt, remorse, embarrassment, even fear are good.  I like Brene Brown's talk, here about it.  About  14 minutes is a quote that I really like

Quote

Shame is a focus on self.  Guilt is a focus on behavior.  Shame is "I am bad." Guilt is "I did something bad."  

Shame keeps people locked in isolation.  While it may be a decent preventative-type feeling, it is incredibly destructive.  It destroys self-worth and connection.  Shame is the adversary's counterfeit to guilt.

 

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21 minutes ago, Vort said:

You know, I wonder how much our modern isolationist culture perpetuates all sorts of unhealthy practices, of which secret pornography consumption is just one example. I'm a middle-aged man, and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many really close male friends (not family) I have had over my adult life. And I would not use up all my fingers.

My best friend is without any doubt my wife; but as @anatess2 would likely say, that's not necessarily a good thing. If I had a problem with pornography consumption, would I talk about it with my wife? I can't say for sure, but...well, yes, I can say for pretty darn sure. I cannot imagine discussing such a thing with my wife. Confessing? Possibly. Discussing? Asking for help? Seeking guidance and strength? Nope nope nope nope nope. Not on your life. It would never happen.

My wife loves me better than anyone else in this world loves me, maybe including my own mother, but I seriously doubt she would even have the capability to offer me whatever support I would need in that situation. "Hey, honey, I've got a problem looking at pictures of naked women who aren't you. Can you give me a hand with that? Maybe offer some moral support and be a listening ear for me?" I mean, I almost laugh at the thought.

But it's much wider than pornography (not to minimize that curse on the human population). My Muslim friend whom I have mentioned many times used to tell me about his intimate friendships with certain other men and how valuable they were to him. Men, how much richer and deeper would our lives be if we had a half-dozen such intimate male friends, or three, or two, or even one? The Bible talks about this aspect of intimate male friendship and love, yet it's so totally unknown to our culture that many who read the Bible actually think it's talking about homosexuality. I have heard many people say that David and Jonathan were "lovers". These people have no clue, and I think most of us don't, either.

This is a great point.  I have been studying things like this a lot.  While each case is different, depending on each spouse, generally speaking, most experts do not advice that a spouse be the accountability partner.  They are usually encouraged to be involved, but not in the details.  There are a lot good articles, blogs, and podcasts, that talk about recovering from porn.  Some I found on the Covenant Eyes site. 

 

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

You know, I wonder how much our modern isolationist culture perpetuates all sorts of unhealthy practices, of which secret pornography consumption is just one example. I'm a middle-aged man, and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many really close male friends (not family) I have had over my adult life. And I would not use up all my fingers.

My best friend is without any doubt my wife; but as @anatess2 would likely say, that's not necessarily a good thing. If I had a problem with pornography consumption, would I talk about it with my wife? I can't say for sure, but...well, yes, I can say for pretty darn sure. I cannot imagine discussing such a thing with my wife. Confessing? Possibly. Discussing? Asking for help? Seeking guidance and strength? Nope nope nope nope nope. Not on your life. It would never happen.

My wife loves me better than anyone else in this world loves me, maybe including my own mother, but I seriously doubt she would even have the capability to offer me whatever support I would need in that situation. "Hey, honey, I've got a problem looking at pictures of naked women who aren't you. Can you give me a hand with that? Maybe offer some moral support and be a listening ear for me?" I mean, I almost laugh at the thought.

But it's much wider than pornography (not to minimize that curse on the human population). My Muslim friend whom I have mentioned many times used to tell me about his intimate friendships with certain other men and how valuable they were to him. Men, how much richer and deeper would our lives be if we had a half-dozen such intimate male friends, or three, or two, or even one? The Bible talks about this aspect of intimate male friendship and love, yet it's so totally unknown to our culture that many who read the Bible actually think it's talking about homosexuality. I have heard many people say that David and Jonathan were "lovers". These people have no clue, and I think most of us don't, either.

I'm actually the opposite from you. My wife is the only one I would trust to work with me on something like that and I believe a significant stumbling block to many men (and women) in getting over pornography is their inability to tell their spouse before it all blows out into the open. But the great part about Covenant Eyes (and similiar systems) is that anyone can be your partner. If you've got a close guy friend that you trust with this, great use him. In a way, it's designed to banish that isolation that you rightly point out is a serious problem in society.

And for the record I 100% agree with you that the modern world has lost out on and no longer understands intimate friendships between men. Our obsession with sexuality above everything else has clouded our minds to valuable relationships, like your Muslim friend, that have made many people's lives brighter.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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Guest LiterateParakeet
15 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'd be interested to see any viable statistics on the effectiveness of the new-found anti-shame approach to any given problem.

This looks to be a good starting point if you want to try and track that down.  It's an article from a scientific journal (your local library might have a database where you can read it for free.)  From the abstract:  "In this review, we integrate the conflicting research on shame, examining how shame, as an emotion that evolved for a functional purpose, can become problematic"
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/spc3.12263

For clarity sake: I think guilt serves a valuable purpose in our lives in helping us recognize sin and error and return to God.  I think shame is Satan's twisted version of guillt which serves no purpose except to injure.  I have looked up the work "shame" in the scriptures, and I believe all those uses (or nearly all) the "word" guilt could be applied.  Language changes over time as we all know.  "Know" in the scriptures (as in Adam knew his wife) is a very different meaning than the way we use it today.  I think it is the same with shame/guilt.  The way we use the word "shame" today is not the same as it was used in the scriputes.   That's my opinion. 

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Guest LiterateParakeet
12 hours ago, dprh said:

This is a great point.  I have been studying things like this a lot.  While each case is different, depending on each spouse, generally speaking, most experts do not advice that a spouse be the accountability partner.  They are usually encouraged to be involved, but not in the details.  There are a lot good articles, blogs, and podcasts, that talk about recovering from porn.  Some I found on the Covenant Eyes site. 

I agree.  While I think it would be wonderful if every marriage had the kind of connection that they could talk about pornography, I don't think it would be healthy.  Many women whose husbands struggle with porn experience Betrayal Trauma.  I'm not saying this to shame anyone, simply stating why one's wife is likely not the best person to be an Ally.  

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/when-disaster-strikes-inside-disaster-psychology/201806/the-trauma-intimate-partner-betrayal

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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15 hours ago, Vort said:

You know, I wonder how much our modern isolationist culture perpetuates all sorts of unhealthy practices, of which secret pornography consumption is just one example. I'm a middle-aged man, and I can count on the fingers of one hand how many really close male friends (not family) I have had over my adult life. And I would not use up all my fingers.

My best friend is without any doubt my wife; but as @anatess2 would likely say, that's not necessarily a good thing. If I had a problem with pornography consumption, would I talk about it with my wife? I can't say for sure, but...well, yes, I can say for pretty darn sure. I cannot imagine discussing such a thing with my wife. Confessing? Possibly. Discussing? Asking for help? Seeking guidance and strength? Nope nope nope nope nope. Not on your life. It would never happen.

My wife loves me better than anyone else in this world loves me, maybe including my own mother, but I seriously doubt she would even have the capability to offer me whatever support I would need in that situation. "Hey, honey, I've got a problem looking at pictures of naked women who aren't you. Can you give me a hand with that? Maybe offer some moral support and be a listening ear for me?" I mean, I almost laugh at the thought.

But it's much wider than pornography (not to minimize that curse on the human population). My Muslim friend whom I have mentioned many times used to tell me about his intimate friendships with certain other men and how valuable they were to him. Men, how much richer and deeper would our lives be if we had a half-dozen such intimate male friends, or three, or two, or even one? The Bible talks about this aspect of intimate male friendship and love, yet it's so totally unknown to our culture that many who read the Bible actually think it's talking about homosexuality. I have heard many people say that David and Jonathan were "lovers". These people have no clue, and I think most of us don't, either.

I think the breakdown of the family is tragic just for cases like these.  Yes, best friends are extensions of family (you must be Filipino if, you have family you can't put on your family tree) but this is the main purpose of family.  When someone is struggling with say, pornography, you go to one of your elderly uncles and ask him for help.  And usually, that uncle would go, "yeah, your great grandpa on your mother's mother's side was able to kick the habit..." and all of a sudden, you are full of hope that you can win this battle because, after all, great grandpa has done it and his blood runs through yours... and someone, somewhere on that family tree can walk you through how great grandpa did it and someone, somewhere on that family tree can walk your wife through how great grandma survived it.

And I'm writing this while embroiled in the midst of my cousin dying of breast cancer.  This would now be the 3rd casualty of cancer in my family within the past 6 years.  It seems like cancer-susceptibility is running through our bloodline.

 

 

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2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

This looks to be a good starting point if you want to try and track that down.  It's an article from a scientific journal (your local library might have a database where you can read it for free.)  From the abstract:  "In this review, we integrate the conflicting research on shame, examining how shame, as an emotion that evolved for a functional purpose, can become problematic"
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/spc3.12263

Thanks.

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

For clarity sake: I think guilt serves a valuable purpose in our lives in helping us recognize sin and error and return to God.  I think shame is Satan's twisted version of guillt which serves no purpose except to injure.  I have looked up the work "shame" in the scriptures, and I believe all those uses (or nearly all) the "word" guilt could be applied.  Language changes over time as we all know.  "Know" in the scriptures (as in Adam knew his wife) is a very different meaning than the way we use it today.  I think it is the same with shame/guilt.  The way we use the word "shame" today is not the same as it was used in the scriputes.   That's my opinion. 

I think there is some value to what you're suggesting. But I also believe this is, perhaps, one of the ways that Satan has injected confusion using language to cause trouble. In other words, some people see it as you suggest, and that may well be healthy. But many others, I believe, simply conflate the two ideas, take the "shame is bad" philosophy and use it to convince themselves to not feel bad about doing things they shouldn't.

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2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Just reviewing the abstract, this idea proposed seems SO much more in line with my feelings/thinking on the matter:

"shame has been redefined in a variety of ways in an attempt to distinguish functional shame from problematic shame."

This makes so much more sense than trying to define shame as separate from guilt and then calling guilt good and shame bad. Shame and guilt, even if defined differently, both have their place, and both can be healthy, and both can be unhealthy.

My sense is and has been than someone who feels no shame is a sociopath. That's not good.

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

I, for one, would not want to live in a world where people truly didn't feel shame. I think the technical term for people like that is "psychopathic".

I see Vort already suggested the same as me. Though I think sociopath works better.

Sociopath:

a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Psychopath:

a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behavior.

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16 hours ago, Vort said:

If I had a problem with pornography consumption, would I talk about it with my wife? I can't say for sure, but...well, yes, I can say for pretty darn sure. I cannot imagine discussing such a thing with my wife. Confessing? Possibly. Discussing? Asking for help? Seeking guidance and strength? Nope nope nope nope nope. Not on your life. It would never happen.

My wife loves me better than anyone else in this world loves me, maybe including my own mother, but I seriously doubt she would even have the capability to offer me whatever support I would need in that situation. "Hey, honey, I've got a problem looking at pictures of naked women who aren't you. Can you give me a hand with that? Maybe offer some moral support and be a listening ear for me?" I mean, I almost laugh at the thought.

Perhaps it couldn't be discussed with her. But if she somehow had access to review all materials you consumed at the end of each day, you can probably bet that it might help curb said theoretical problem. ;)

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